Need help with MSI HD 7950 VS Gigabyte GTX 670 (Open Box)

[EMChamp]

I know there are tons of other 7950 vs 670 threads, I know I've poured through my fair share these past few days but I am looking for advice specifically on these two potential purchases:

Gigabyte GTX 670 -- $363 -- Amazon Warehouse, possibly free Borderlands 2?

MSI HD 7950 -- $329 -- Amazon

I am all but ready to pull the trigger on the MSI HD 7950 to be honest because Guild Wars 2 head start is coming in 6 days and I would like a card by then. I am only considering Amazon because their prices are already cheap, I am a prime member so free 2 day shipping and I pay no tax in CA.

The only things I like about the 670 are really the Physx support (PlanetSide 2!), potentially greater performance and possibly free borderlands 2. Then again I am buying a used card for $30 more that I potentially have to hassle around with returning even if it is free to return.

At what clock/memory speeds does the 7950 begin to match the stock 670s performance in most games?
From the benches and reviews I've read from Hardware.nfo, Tom's Hardware and Anandtech it seems like the 7950 can match the 670 at stock but I'm curious what others have concluded regarding this matchup.

If I have to go for a high overclock on the HD 7950 to match the GTX 670 in the majority of games then maybe I could justify the extra risk and cost of a used GTX 670 but if that isn't the case then I am definitely picking up the HD 7950.

EDIT: Games I play include Metro 2033, Crysis 2, Shogun 2, Civ 5, Anno 2070, Guild Wars 2 and PlanetSide 2 Beta at 1920x1080.

 

[MBentz]

My vote goes to the 7950. The only used graphics card I would buy would be from a trusted seller here.

That being said, both cards are great and will suite your needs at 1080.

 

[RussianSensation]

I am all but ready to pull the trigger on the MSI HD 7950 to be honest because Guild Wars 2 head start is coming in 6 days and I would like a card by then. I am only considering Amazon because their prices are already cheap, I am a prime member so free 2 day shipping and I pay no tax in CA.

EDIT: Games I play include Metro 2033, Crysis 2, Shogun 2, Civ 5, Anno 2070, Guild Wars 2 and PlanetSide 2 Beta at 1920x1080.

NV will win in Crysis 2, Shogun 2 and has a huge lead at the moment in Guild Wars. Civ 5 is equally playable on both but again NV will have a slight lead, and Anno 2070 is about a tie. The best aspect of that MSI TF3 7950 card is how well it overclocks. It is once 7950 reaches 1.1-1.2ghz that it becomes a very fast card. At 850-880mhz, it's still slower overall than a 670.

Anno 2070

While in those games the performance is relatively close, there is a big difference at the moment in Guild Wars 2:

 

[EMChamp]

NV will win in Crysis 2, Shogun 2 and has a huge lead at the moment in Guild Wars. Civ 5 is equally playable on both but again NV will have a slight lead, and Anno 2070 is about a tie. The best aspect of that MSI TF3 7950 card is how well it overclocks. It is once 7950 reaches 1.1-1.2ghz that it becomes a very fast card. At 850-880mhz, it's still slower overall than a 670.

Thanks I wasn't aware of the performance problems in GW2, I figured it would be the least of my worries in choosing a new with my choices likely being whether I wanted 300 or 350 fps. It was very poorly optimized when I played back during the first beta test and I hope they will fix these issues relatively soon but this is definitely concerning.


Thumbs up for the last graph from GameGPU, crazy amount of games they have tested.

 

[zaydq]

http://www.3dmark.com/3dm11/4164370

7950 is a good buy. They'll fix they GW2 issues eventually. I'm running at GTX 680 speeds with the MSI TF3 7950.

 

[markyd]

Get the GTX 670. Especially since you are referring to the GIGABYTE version. The top 3 are the windforce, asus, and evga ftw. The 670 can overclock to 680 speeds (the 3 above come very close if not faster). Also Nvidia>AMD.

 

[VisceralM]

"They'll fix they GW2 issues eventually."

And this is why I switched from ATI to Nvidia after years of having ATI cards. I just don't have the time or patience for it anymore. I have a Winforce 670, it's amazingly quiet and cool and easily overclocks past 1200. I recommend it.

 

[Silverforce11]

BETA performance, let's all bash AMD for poor drivers in an unreleased game. While NV is suffering in released titles, in currently the best game around: Sleeping Dogs along with a bunch of other AAA games.

But nevermind that, AMD drivers suck cos its slow in a beta.

 

[Fire&Blood]

Looks like I actually paid $285 (with electricity bill accounted for) for a 7950 since I sold my bitcoin earnings I made with it.

This card on 12.7 beta does a lot better than it did in those February benchmarks that some like to point to. 7970 PCB helps as well, can't beat that at it's price point.

Not saying that the open box is bad but chances are it's returned because it didn't OC well. On the other hand, 7950 is pretty much guaranteed to hit 1100/1575 which the cooling can handle.

 

[RussianSensation]

Ya if you take into account bitcoin mining and overclocking, well then sure the 7950 wins since bitcoin mining makes it free eventually. However, if the OP doesn't care to overclock, that 670 is a good deal imo.

 

[zaydq]

If you're gunna OC i'd suggest the 7950. If you're gunna stick to stock then the 670. 12.8 drivers are out from AMD and i've had good success with it. I definitely dont wanna play the AMD fanboy but AMD has been getting a bad wrap for not a whole lot of merit.

 

[Fire&Blood]

If you're gunna OC i'd suggest the 7950. If you're gunna stick to stock then the 670. 12.8 drivers are out from AMD and i've had good success with it. I definitely dont wanna play the AMD fanboy but AMD has been getting a bad wrap for not a whole lot of merit.

Have you used 12.7 too, notice any difference worth switching to 12.8?

No fanboy here either. 7950 was a terrible deal when it was $450 but for 25% less, good cooling solution and a top end PCB later things are different.

670 does beat 7950 in few areas and if those happen to be key to you, by all means go get that one.

 

[markyd]

Have you used 12.7 too, notice any difference worth switching to 12.8?

No fanboy here either. 7950 was a terrible deal when it was $450 but for 25% less, good cooling solution and a top end PCB later things are different.

670 does beat 7950 in few areas and if those happen to be key to you, by all means go get that one.

in few? it beats it in almost all areas. to be on level with a 670 it has to be overclocked to the max and even then an overclocked 670 will still be faster in a lot of games. Not everyone wants to overclock their card to the point the fan speed is at 100% and it will die in a way shorter amount of time. plus nvidia is better than amd. There is starting to be such an amd bias on these boards. you get way you pay for. nvidia is quality and is better than amd. People always say OH THE 7950 OVERCLOCKS TO BEAT A 680. but they never mention a 670 can be overclocked to beat a 680 and you dont have to run it at 100% fan speed or some ridiculous overclock that will damage your card in time. in fact the asus and evga ftw 670's are faster than 680s.

 

[zaydq]

in few? it beats it in almost all areas. to be on level with a 670 it has to be overclocked to the max and even then an overclocked 670 will still be faster in a lot of games. Not everyone wants to overclock their card to the point the fan speed is at 100% and it will die in a way shorter amount of time. plus nvidia is better than amd. There is starting to be such an amd bias on these boards. you get way you pay for. nvidia is quality and is better than amd. People always say OH THE 7950 OVERCLOCKS TO BEAT A 680. but they never mention a 670 can be overclocked to beat a 680 and you dont have to run it at 100% fan speed or some ridiculous overclock that will damage your card in time. in fact the asus and evga ftw 670's are faster than 680s.

You pay for those faster speeds. He's comparing an openbox 670 to a brand new 7950. Guaranteed the open box is a shit overclocker. Lets also remember amd made the 7 series to compete with nvidias gtx 5 series. Lets not forget that amd > nvidia in directcompute, higher res gaming and design applications but god forbid we talk about that. Nvidia's gaming gpus have the edge i can admit, but not enough of an edge to completely write off amd's offerings. Theres like 6 people on these boards who talk highly of AMD, but don't trash Nvidia... but then theres you, the typical Nvidia fanboy who trashes anything that isn't team green.

AMD priced too high when they came out and just started dropping prices. They priced to compete with Nvidia's previous generation and didn't react on time to Nvidia's current gen cards, now that they have reacted, they're priced competitively. Can't beat their performance stock for stock, so just beat their pricing and offer competetive price/perf.

 

[RussianSensation]

in few? it beats it in almost all areas. to be on level with a 670 it has to be overclocked to the max and even then an overclocked 670 will still be faster in a lot of games. Not everyone wants to overclock their card to the point the fan speed is at 100% and it will die in a way shorter amount of time. plus nvidia is better than amd. There is starting to be such an amd bias on these boards. you get way you pay for. nvidia is quality and is better than amd. People always say OH THE 7950 OVERCLOCKS TO BEAT A 680. but they never mention a 670 can be overclocked to beat a 670 and you dont have to run it at 100% fan speed or some ridiculous overclock that will damage your card in time. in fact the asus and evga ftw 670's are faster than 680s.

Accusing our forum of AMD bias, somehow skewing facts and putting down a blatant opinion that NV > AMD in quality and in general, etc. You sure came off as an objective poster there. Great 2nd post.

Ok I'll bite.

For starters the 670 doesn't clearly beat the 7950 on price/performance which is why the OP asked us for advice. If it was the obvious choice, why would the OP even start the thread? We also weighed in both sides of the story and provided the OP with performance of the 670 vs. 7950 in the games which he is interested in.

Many of our members do mention that a gamer can overclock a 670 and a 680 in many other threads. It doesn't matter because:

1) First of all the 680 costs $500 and loses to a $450 HD7970 GE at stock or overclocked. That makes 680 a non-starter. Someone who wants a $450-500 card such as the 680 isn't looking at a 7950 for $320. For that reason the 7970 GE is a competitor to the 680.

2) Because HD7950 @ 1.1-1.2ghz > stock 7970/680, that makes a $320 HD7950 amazing value. The GTX660Ti cannot match that feat and GTX670 costs $70-80 more for similar after-market versions, hence the value of after market 7950s. That's not to say the 670 is a bad card, just not as great value if you intend to overclock. If you don't want to overclock, then this doesn't concern you but please don't tell us we are biased because we bring up the overclocking factor. If overclocking is not taken into account the 670 is a better card than a 7950. No one on our forum denies that, not even in this thread. And yet you accuse our forum of bias?

3) Thirdly, an Oced 670 does not beat an Oced 7950 overall, which is why we aren't biased since we already researched this and aren't posting it out of thin air when posters say that an overclocked 7950 is fast:

HD7950 MSI TF3 1167mhz

Source
<That's using old drivers too so I am not even giving the card Cats 12.7-12.8s here>

vs. more expensive cream of the crop GTX670 Power Edition and I quote: "The +100 [Core OC] resulted in the dynamic clock to kick as well with the power limiter now loosened up, as such we noticed almost 1300 MHz":

Source

Can you let us know exactly why our forum members are biased in claiming that an Overclocked 7950 can easily keep up with an overclocked 670 for less $, while there are 12 pages of evidence on our forum of after-market MSI TF3 7950 cards hitting 1.2ghz on air which many would agree is perfectly competitive with a 1300mhz overclocked 670 overall.

Maybe this is one of the few forums left that actually stands for honesty and integrity? We weigh both sides of the coin stock and overclocked performance and account for market pricing and not just MSRP and unique OP needs. I don't know but you seem to think our forum is AMD biased despite people in this very thread recommending the 670 and the 7950 for different reasons.

 

[markyd]

You pay for those faster speeds. He's comparing an openbox 670 to a brand new 7950. Guaranteed the open box is a shit overclocker. Lets also remember amd made the 7 series to compete with nvidias gtx 5 series. Lets not forget that amd > nvidia in directcompute, higher res gaming and design applications but god forbid we talk about that. Nvidia's gaming gpus have the edge i can admit, but not enough of an edge to completely write off amd's offerings. Theres like 6 people on these boards who talk highly of AMD, but don't trash Nvidia... but then theres you, the typical Nvidia fanboy who trashes anything that isn't team green.

AMD priced too high when they came out and just started dropping prices. They priced to compete with Nvidia's previous generation and didn't react on time to Nvidia's current gen cards, now that they have reacted, they're priced competitively. Can't beat their performance stock for stock, so just beat their pricing and offer competetive price/perf.

im not being a nvidia fanboy. i understand that AMD offers great cards for your dollar at this point in time. In fact i'd even recommend a 7950 over a 660ti. But, if you have the choice between a 7950 and a 670 i think its a no brainer to choose the 670. Sure, the 7950 can overclock to beat whatever, but the 670 doesnt need to be overclocked to achieve high speeds and not only that, you can overclock a 670 if youd like to be faster than a 680. Moreover, it shouldnt be denied that nvidia has better relations with big gaming hits, just look at bf3 and blizzard games.

Also, a HUGE majority of gamers dont play on a resolution higher than 1080p.

 

[Fire&Blood]

in few? it beats it in almost all areas. to be on level with a 670 it has to be overclocked to the max and even then an overclocked 670 will still be faster in a lot of games. Not everyone wants to overclock their card to the point the fan speed is at 100% and it will die in a way shorter amount of time. plus nvidia is better than amd. There is starting to be such an amd bias on these boards. you get way you pay for. nvidia is quality and is better than amd. People always say OH THE 7950 OVERCLOCKS TO BEAT A 680. but they never mention a 670 can be overclocked to beat a 680 and you dont have to run it at 100% fan speed or some ridiculous overclock that will damage your card in time. in fact the asus and evga ftw 670's are faster than 680s.

LOL where did I suggest to run OC that requires 100% fan to begin with? I posted my setup earlier, I run 1100/1575 @1049v, auto fan setting never exceeds 60%/72C.

OP put together his post in a fashion that indicates he wants the best value, hence the comparison vs open box one and I responded to him from that perspective and mentioned bitcoin for that reason as well.

If the gap between the 2 cards, new vs new, was less than $30, I would suggest him the 670. I probably would have gotten one myself.

 

[markyd]

Wow. Accusing our forum of AMD bias, somehow skewing facts and putting down a blatant opinion that NV > AMD in quality and in general, etc. You sure came off as an objective poster there. Great 2nd post.

Ok I'll bite.

For starters the 670 doesn't clearly beat the 7950 on price/performance which is why the OP asked us for advice. We also weighed in both sides of the story and provided the OP with performance of the 670 vs. 7950 in the games which he is interested in.

Many of our members do mention that a gamer can overclock a 670 and a 680 in many other threads. It doesn't matter because:

1) First of all the 680 costs $500 and loses to a $450 HD7970 GE at stock or overclocked. That makes 680 a non-starter. Someone who wants a $450-500 card such as the 680 isn't looking at a 7950 for $320. For that reason the 7970 GE is a competitor to the 680.

2) Because HD7950 @ 1.1-1.2ghz > stock 7970/680, that makes a $320 HD7950 amazing value. The GTX660Ti cannot match that feat and GTX670 costs $70-80 more for similar after-market versions, hence the value of after market 7950s. That's not to say the 670 is a bad card, just not as great value if you intend to overclock. If you don't want to overclock, then this doesn't concern you but please don't tell us we are biased because we bring up the overclocking factor. If overclocking is not taken into account the 670 is a better card than a 7950. No one on our forum denies that, not even in this thread. And yet you accuse our forum of bias?

3) Thirdly, an Oced 670 does not beat an Oced 7950, which is why we aren't biased since we already researched this and aren't posting it out of thin air when posters say that an overclocked 7950 is fast:

HD7950 MSI TF3 1167mhz

Source
<That's using old drivers too so I am not even giving the card Cats 12.7-12.8s here>

vs. more expensive cream of the crop GTX670 Power Edition and I quote: "The +100 [Core OC] resulted in the dynamic clock to kick as well with the power limiter now loosened up, as such we noticed almost 1300 MHz":

Can you let us know exactly why our forum members are biased in claiming that an Overclocked 7950 can easily keep up with an overclocked 670 for less $, while there are 12 pages of evidence on our forum of after-market MSI TF3 7950 cards hitting 1.2ghz on air which actually surprasses a 1300mhz overclocked 670.

Maybe this is one of the few forums left that actually stands for honesty and integrity? I don't know but you seem to think our forum is AMD biased despite performance and pricing data to the contrary.

You're showing me 2 games. Who plays alien vs predator? Also that is just one benchmark. Please show me benchmarks for every game for OC'd 670 vs 7950.

 

[zaydq]

Have you used 12.7 too, notice any difference worth switching to 12.8?

No fanboy here either. 7950 was a terrible deal when it was $450 but for 25% less, good cooling solution and a top end PCB later things are different.

670 does beat 7950 in few areas and if those happen to be key to you, by all means go get that one.

Yeah, its not beta . No i didn't notice a huge difference just some issues addressed in games and sleep mode issues.

 

[Silverforce11]

@new troll

So you are saying if u a) don't overclock, b) play only blizzard games.. then the 670 is better?

Ok, you can have blizzard games.. but with the latest drivers, NV no longer has a lead in BF3. So if someone fits the above criteria, we will gladly recommend the 670 over the much cheaper 7950. For everyone else, your dribble is biased to the core.

 

[Attic]

Can't go wrong, but stacked up and weighed against the current prices you are looking at for the two cards I think you'll be better served by the 7950 rather than a GTX670. As silveforce mentioned the GW2 performance should be looked at with context of the beta state of the game.

7950 gets you more VRAM, ability to gernerate income by bitcoin mining, ability to OC extremely well for huge perf gains. For xFire the zero power of card#2 when in idle is a really nice touch too if you plan to go that route.

Most of the guys on the board bounce back between nvidia and AMD depending on value/perf. I'd stick with those criteria for your purchase. This round the 670 and 7950 are both really solid cards, but personally I gave props to the 7950, especially the MSI version that the board members been getting ~40-50% OC's with.

 

[Silverforce11]

You're showing me 2 games. Who plays alien vs predator? Also that is just one benchmark. Please show me benchmarks for every game for OC'd 670 vs 7950.

Now imagine a 7950 @ 1.2ghz, a 50% OC from 800 core default. You can add 40% extra performance to the above graph.

Figure it out yourself. Hint, its been shown to be much faster than the 7970 GE and even beating the gtx590.

 

[markyd]

@new troll

So you are saying if u a) don't overclock, b) play only blizzard games.. then the 670 is better?

Ok, you can have blizzard games.. but with the latest drivers, NV no longer has a lead in BF3. So if someone fits the above criteria, we will gladly recommend the 670 over the much cheaper 7950. For everyone else, your dribble is biased to the core.

You wanna show me a benchmark for that? An OC'd 7950 vs OC'd 670 BF3 bench?

 

[markyd]

Its a 30 dollar difference. go with the better card - the 670.

 

[Attic]

Its a 30 dollar difference. go with the better card - the 670.

Most of the community here expects more consideration than this.

Posting "it's a better card" has little value without additional criteria to back up the claim that X is in fact a better card. It is clear you "feel" the 670 is the better card, but why and does your why matter in a meaningful way to the OP?