Need help with a debate for school

[Vegitto]

Okay, so this Wednesday, we've got a debate, 2 vs 2. Since my partner won't do anything (and we'll both get punished for that), I have to do everything. Since I suck at this, I've come to the almighty ATOT for help. If I get a good grade for this, I'll pass and I won't be held back. If I fail, I'll be held back and quite probably have to drop out of school due to not being able to pay for books for another year (in the last year, next year if I'm not held back) you don't need any books, if 'm held back I'll have to re-rent my current books). Anyway, here's what's the debate is all about:

"Alternative punishment shouldn't be used anymore."
I'm on the agreeing side, in other words, I have to defend why alternative punishment shouldn't be used anymore.

Alternative punishment is when, for example, someone gets busted as a drunk driver and has to do community service/tell kids about how bad alcohol is/walk around with a sign on it.

Please help ..

 

[clamum]

Write down your topic. Try thinking of some reasons to defend it. Google the phrase to get some ideas and information. Finally, write down some major points of defense and elaborate on them some. That's what you talk about in the debate.

 

[Vegitto]

Originally posted by: clamum
Write down your topic. Try thinking of some reasons to defend it. Google the phrase to get some ideas and information. Finally, write down some major points of defense and elaborate on them some. That's what you talk about in the debate.

Yes, I know. But I can't think of a single argument against alternative punishment. I just KNOW that going to prison (ie, the only correct form of punishment according to my topic) royally fscks kids up. Also, I don't think that someone who's been drinking and driving or someone who missed a stop sign should go to jail.

 

[apac]

Originally posted by: clamum
Write down your topic. Try thinking of some reasons to defend it. Google the phrase to get some ideas and information. Finally, write down some major points of defense and elaborate on them some. That's what you talk about in the debate.

Be sure to read the other side of the debate too, so you know what to expect and can have counter arguments ready.

Oh, and wtf.. grow some testicles and get your partner to do some work.

 

[Vegitto]

Originally posted by: apac

Originally posted by: clamum
Write down your topic. Try thinking of some reasons to defend it. Google the phrase to get some ideas and information. Finally, write down some major points of defense and elaborate on them some. That's what you talk about in the debate.

Be sure to read the other side of the debate too, so you know what to expect and can have counter arguments ready.

Oh, and wtf.. grow some testicles and get your partner to do some work.

I always have to work with this guy and I know that he doesn't give a ****** even if he's held back, and considering what he's come up with since ever, I'd rather have nothing..

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: clamum
Write down your topic. Try thinking of some reasons to defend it. Google the phrase to get some ideas and information. Finally, write down some major points of defense and elaborate on them some. That's what you talk about in the debate.

Yep.

Also consider as many likely coutner arguments as possible and prepare for them. Fight dirty using logical fallacies (not too obviously if it can be helped) if your position is failing too if that is allowed.

You aren't required to agree with your position, just to argue it as effectively as possible.

 

[Vegitto]

Does anyone have any arguments? I seriously can't think of even ONE.

 

[clamum]

Originally posted by: Vegitto
Does anyone have any arguments? I seriously can't think of even ONE.

Have you done any research? Internet, books, etc.

 

[Vegitto]

Originally posted by: clamum

Originally posted by: Vegitto
Does anyone have any arguments? I seriously can't think of even ONE.

Have you done any research? Internet, books, etc.

Yeah, but every google search either returns arguments in favor of alternative punishment or articles about people punished alternatively.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Vegitto

Originally posted by: clamum

Originally posted by: Vegitto
Does anyone have any arguments? I seriously can't think of even ONE.

Have you done any research? Internet, books, etc.

Yeah, but every google search either returns arguments in favor of alternative punishment or articles about people punished alternatively.

What constraints are there on your debate? Are you going to be held to an ethical standard?

 

[mundane]

Originally posted by: Vegitto
...
Yes, I know. But I can't think of a single argument against alternative punishment. I just KNOW that going to prison (ie, the only correct form of punishment according to my topic) royally fscks kids up. Also, I don't think that someone who's been drinking and driving ... should go to jail.

From sig:

Acemcmac, forever in ATOT's mind.

Never harmed anyone, right?

More on topic, you don't need to believe what you argue - that's part of the exercise. Play devil's advocate, there should be more than enough examples on these forums of that type of debate.

 

[Vegitto]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Vegitto

Originally posted by: clamum

Originally posted by: Vegitto
Does anyone have any arguments? I seriously can't think of even ONE.

Have you done any research? Internet, books, etc.

Yeah, but every google search either returns arguments in favor of alternative punishment or articles about people punished alternatively.

What constraints are there on your debate? Are you going to be held to an ethical standard?

What do you mean? Can't call the other team names etc. etc..

Originally posted by: mundane

Originally posted by: Vegitto
...
Yes, I know. But I can't think of a single argument against alternative punishment. I just KNOW that going to prison (ie, the only correct form of punishment according to my topic) royally fscks kids up. Also, I don't think that someone who's been drinking and driving ... should go to jail.

From sig:

Acemcmac, forever in ATOT's mind.

Never harmed anyone, right?

More on topic, you don't need to believe what you argue - that's part of the exercise. Play devil's advocate, there should be more than enough examples on these forums of that type of debate.

That's not what I meant by drinking and driving, and you're right, it's probably a bad example. But anyway, I would love to play devil's advocate, but correct arguments should be present for that..

I mean, what arguments are there in favor of making going to prison the only type of punishment?

 

[djheater]

You need to go to a college library and look at the journal database. Search for your topic and then use the statistics and quotes as points in your argument.

outline your argument, and create note cards with the points you will be making

Ex:

Alternative punishment fails as a punishment tool

- recidivism
- examples of crimes commited by alternatively punished people
- expense vs traditional imprisonment

 

[drinkmorejava]

Originally posted by: Vegitto

Originally posted by: clamum
Write down your topic. Try thinking of some reasons to defend it. Google the phrase to get some ideas and information. Finally, write down some major points of defense and elaborate on them some. That's what you talk about in the debate.

Yes, I know. But I can't think of a single argument against alternative punishment. I just KNOW that going to prison (ie, the only correct form of punishment according to my topic) royally fscks kids up. Also, I don't think that someone who's been drinking and driving or someone who missed a stop sign should go to jail.

You might not deserve to be held back in school, but you certainly do in life.

 

[Vegitto]

Originally posted by: drinkmorejava

Originally posted by: Vegitto

Originally posted by: clamum
Write down your topic. Try thinking of some reasons to defend it. Google the phrase to get some ideas and information. Finally, write down some major points of defense and elaborate on them some. That's what you talk about in the debate.

Yes, I know. But I can't think of a single argument against alternative punishment. I just KNOW that going to prison (ie, the only correct form of punishment according to my topic) royally fscks kids up. Also, I don't think that someone who's been drinking and driving or someone who missed a stop sign should go to jail.

You might not deserve to be held back in school, but you certainly do in life.

It was a bad example, okay? I'm sorry if you think I fail at life, but my opinions are not the subject here.

Originally posted by: djheater
You need to go to a college library and look at the journal database. Search for your topic and then use the statistics and quotes as points in your argument.

outline your argument, and create note cards with the points you will be making

Ex:

Alternative punishment fails as a punishment tool

- recidivism
- examples of crimes commited by alternatively punished people
- expense vs traditional imprisonment

Wow, thanks. Those arguments helped. Alternative punishment IS a lot more expensive than normal punishment.

 

[mundane]

Originally posted by: Vegitto
...

I mean, what arguments are there in favor of making going to prison the only type of punishment?

I forgot, you're from Europe. In the US, we're really big on punishment as a deterrent - supposedly, if someone knows their actions could cause them to spend X years in prison, they should think twice. Also, there's a huge element of vengeance - guilty parties need to pay a price (either financial or time), to try to satisfy the wronged parties. You could argue that alternative punishments are too cozy, and don't really punish the criminals. Arguments against active rehabilitation are that you should spend money on citizens or programs who deserve it, and not criminal 'scum' who are worth much less. Why 'reward' that behavior with more attention and support than honest people who are struggling receive?

Suspend your beliefs, make an argument, and come up with support to cover any glaring holes.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Vegitto

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Vegitto

Originally posted by: clamum

Originally posted by: Vegitto
Does anyone have any arguments? I seriously can't think of even ONE.

Have you done any research? Internet, books, etc.

Yeah, but every google search either returns arguments in favor of alternative punishment or articles about people punished alternatively.

What constraints are there on your debate? Are you going to be held to an ethical standard?

What do you mean? Can't call the other team names etc. etc..


I mean, what arguments are there in favor of making going to prison the only type of punishment?

If that is the only constraint then you have no problem. Find extreme examples of alternative punishment, appeal to your listener's emotions, use the slippery slope discretly, find statistics to support your case (the more skewed the better), accuse your opponent of being soft on criminals, use every trick in the book.

A good/effective argument is not required to be a correct one, logical, or even one you believe in. Often the best ones are none of the above if you look into them carefully. This is merely an academic exercise you no need to feel badly about it. It will actually be a handy tool that helps you sort through bullsh!t in life more easily.

 

[Vegitto]

Originally posted by: mundane

Originally posted by: Vegitto
...

I mean, what arguments are there in favor of making going to prison the only type of punishment?

I forgot, you're from Europe. In the US, we're really big on punishment as a deterrent - supposedly, if someone knows their actions could cause them to spend X years in prison, they should think twice. Also, there's a huge element of vengeance - guilty parties need to pay a price (either financial or time), to try to satisfy the wronged parties. You could argue that alternative punishments are too cozy, and don't really punish the criminals. Arguments against active rehabilitation are that you should spend money on citizens or programs who deserve it, and not criminal 'scum' who are worth much less. Why 'reward' that behavior with more attention and support than honest people who are struggling receive?

Suspend your beliefs, make an argument, and come up with support to cover any glaring holes.

Excellent, thanks a lot! We have to read an opening statement aloud, after that make a rebuttal on the other party's opening statement and after that there's a free round.. I think I've got enough for my opening statement, thanks a lot .

Keep them coming, please .

 

[Vegitto]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Vegitto

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Vegitto

Originally posted by: clamum

Originally posted by: Vegitto
Does anyone have any arguments? I seriously can't think of even ONE.

Have you done any research? Internet, books, etc.

Yeah, but every google search either returns arguments in favor of alternative punishment or articles about people punished alternatively.

What constraints are there on your debate? Are you going to be held to an ethical standard?

What do you mean? Can't call the other team names etc. etc..


I mean, what arguments are there in favor of making going to prison the only type of punishment?

If that is the only constraint then you have no problem. Find extreme examples of alternative punishment, appeal to your listener's emotions, use the slippery slope discretly, find statistics to support your case (the more skewed the better), accuse your opponent of being soft on criminals, use every trick in the book.

A good/effective argument is not required to be a correct one, logical, or even one you believe in. Often the best ones are none of the above if you look into them carefully. This is merely an academic exercise you no need to feel badly about it. It will actually be a handy tool that helps you sort through bullsh!t in life more easily.

Okay, so:

-Extreme examples:
Clear cases of criminal activity not punished severely enough
-Listeners emotions:
Sad story about person who was alternatively punished and then did it again and killed/hurt/robbed/whatever someone
-Slippery slope:
I don't quite get this one..
-Find skewed statistics:
Self explanatory
-Accuse opponents:
Self explanatory

Thanks a lot, this really helps . After the debate, I'll post how it went. Thanks a lot, you guys .

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Vegitto

-Slippery slope:
I don't quite get this one..

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/slipslop.html

Basically claim that if this is allowed there will be no limits on the punishments and it will degenerate civilization, etc etc...

Used skillfully, this is particularly effective.

Good luck!

 

[Vegitto]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Vegitto

-Slippery slope:
I don't quite get this one..

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/slipslop.html

Basically claim that if this is allowed there will be no limits on the punishments and it will degenerate civilization, etc etc...

Used skillfully, this is particularly effective.

Good luck!

Hmm.. I'm not sure how to use this.. How should I use this in regard to say.. Speeding or driving drunk?

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Vegitto

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Vegitto

-Slippery slope:
I don't quite get this one..

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/slipslop.html

Basically claim that if this is allowed there will be no limits on the punishments and it will degenerate civilization, etc etc...

Used skillfully, this is particularly effective.

Good luck!

Hmm.. I'm not sure how to use this.. How should I use this in regard to say.. Speeding or driving drunk?

Give extreme examples of punishments that could be given out for crimes that would be objectionable to most people. Horrifically embarassing and potentially mentally damaging punishments. Whatever you can think of to make people think that supporting alternative punishments will eventually cause them to descend to that level.

It is intellectually dishonest but it often works.

 

[Vegitto]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Vegitto

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Vegitto

-Slippery slope:
I don't quite get this one..

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/slipslop.html

Basically claim that if this is allowed there will be no limits on the punishments and it will degenerate civilization, etc etc...

Used skillfully, this is particularly effective.

Good luck!

Hmm.. I'm not sure how to use this.. How should I use this in regard to say.. Speeding or driving drunk?

Give extreme examples of punishments that could be given out for crimes that would be objectionable to most people. Horrifically embarassing and potentially mentally damaging punishments. Whatever you can think of to make people think that supporting alternative punishments will eventually cause them to descend to that level.

It is intellectually dishonest but it often works.

So basically give extreme negative examples of alternative punishment? Like what?

 

[DivideBYZero]

Some top tips for you:

1. Turn someone?s generality into an absolute. For example, if someone makes a general statement that Americans celebrate Christmas, point out that some people are Jewish and so anyone who thinks that ALL Americans celebrate Christmas is stupid. (Bonus points for accusing the person of being anti-Semitic.)
2. Turn someone?s factual statements into implied preferences. For example, if someone mentions that not all Catholic priests are pedophiles, accuse the person who said it of siding with pedophiles.
3. Turn factual statements into implied equivalents. For example, if someone says that Ghandi didn?t eat cows, accuse the person of stupidly implying that cows deserve equal billing with Gandhi.
4. Omit key words. For example, if someone says that people can?t eat rocks, accuse the person of being stupid for suggesting that people can?t eat. Bonus points for arguing that some people CAN eat pebbles if they try hard enough.
5. Assume the dumbest interpretation. For example, if someone says that he can run a mile in 12 minutes, assume he means it happens underwater and argue that no one can hold his breath that long.
6. Hallucinate entirely different points. For example, if someone says apples grow on trees, accuse him of saying snakes have arms and then point out how stupid that is.
7. Use the intellectual laziness card. For example, if someone says that ice is cold, recommend that he take graduate courses in chemistry and meteorology before jumping to stupid conclusions that display a complete ignorance of the complexity of ice.

 

[Vegitto]

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero
Some top tips for you:

1. Turn someone?s generality into an absolute. For example, if someone makes a general statement that Americans celebrate Christmas, point out that some people are Jewish and so anyone who thinks that ALL Americans celebrate Christmas is stupid. (Bonus points for accusing the person of being anti-Semitic.)
2. Turn someone?s factual statements into implied preferences. For example, if someone mentions that not all Catholic priests are pedophiles, accuse the person who said it of siding with pedophiles.
3. Turn factual statements into implied equivalents. For example, if someone says that Ghandi didn?t eat cows, accuse the person of stupidly implying that cows deserve equal billing with Gandhi.
4. Omit key words. For example, if someone says that people can?t eat rocks, accuse the person of being stupid for suggesting that people can?t eat. Bonus points for arguing that some people CAN eat pebbles if they try hard enough.
5. Assume the dumbest interpretation. For example, if someone says that he can run a mile in 12 minutes, assume he means it happens underwater and argue that no one can hold his breath that long.
6. Hallucinate entirely different points. For example, if someone says apples grow on trees, accuse him of saying snakes have arms and then point out how stupid that is.
7. Use the intellectual laziness card. For example, if someone says that ice is cold, recommend that he take graduate courses in chemistry and meteorology before jumping to stupid conclusions that display a complete ignorance of the complexity of ice.

And this will help me how..?