Need help troubleshooting XP networking problems - STILL having trouble

[TourGuide]

The trouble all started with a new motherboard upgrade and my "brilliant" idea to wipe and fresh install all three of my home PCs. I have been running XP pro and have been reasonably happy with the state of my network before the reformat. Most of the time, things worked as they should have.

Here is my config:

My wife's and my PC connect to our router for net access. This works fine. On the nics connected to this router, I have only TCP/IP installed. This works, no problem. DHCP connects reliably every time. The cards get their IP address and everything is ducky.

I have another PC located in another part of the house that connects to my wife's PC that is relayed through a switch (a single nic is all this PC has - an oversight on my part when we wired the house - no second cat5 to that location - GRRR). Internet access works fine on this PC. I do not have file and printer sharing bound to TCP/IP, rather this is bound to NetBeui. While this formerly worked for file and printer sharing, apparently this is NOT working after the reformat. I have no clue why. I've checked and everything seems to be installed properly, but printers and shared folders just aren't showing up.

For my wife and my PC we are running the secondary nics to the switch mentioned above for file and printer sharing between the three PCs. In the past this setup worked well and allowed almost flawless file sharing (once they "saw" each other). At first, after I had finished reinstalling my pc (and before I formatted the wife's) this appeared to work just as well. After I reformatted her machine - now in spite of the fact that they are on the same workgroup, have file and printer sharing enabled (but not bound to TCP/IP) and bound to NetBeui I cannot get the two boxes to see each other.

Can anyone give me an idea where to go next?

 

[spidey07]

windows doesn't like multiple network cards. windows networking doesn't like to "see" each other in a home environment.

Solution? Get rid of the extra NICs, use TCP/IP for internet and netbeui for file and print sharing. Or at the very least access each machine with \\ip address instead of browsing to them.

-edit-
I know it sounds like a lame answer, you'll just have to trust me. Without a detailed protocol analysis of what is going on with your network by a very skilled network person cannot really tell you what is going wrong. Windows networking is notorious for not functioning properly unless every single detail is correct, with every machine not rebooted for 4+ hours. FYI - rebooting machines just makes your problems worse.

 

[JackMDS]

I agree with Spidey's Notions above.

However, if you do want to use dual NICs, put a second card in all computers, use one card bound to TCP/IP for Internet, and do not bind it for File sharing. Configure all the secondary cards as a second Network (I.e. a different subnet), and bind it with NetBEUI to File and printer sharing. You would have to use double cabling, as well as a second independent Switch.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: JackMDS
I agree with Spidey's Notions above.

However, if you do want to use dual NICs, put a second card in all computers, use one card bound to TCP/IP for Internet, and do not bind it for File sharing. Configure all the secondary cards as a second Network (I.e. a different subnet), and bind it with NetBEUI to File and printer sharing. You would have to use double cabling, as well as a second independent Switch.

You wanna know what's funny? I've been analyzing windows networking since windows for workgroups 3.11. It still follows the exact same behavior.

Your suggestion is very sound. Windows browsing to this day in the year 2006 has severe problems with hosts having more than one NIC. It's a known issue and it cannot be fixed without a complete re-do of windows operating systems.

 

[TourGuide]

So my question is this then, besides TCP/IP and NetBeui bound to file and printer sharing is there any other protocol I need to have installed in order to make things work. I am in the process of working this very arrangement out?

My problem is, I'd like to have the ability to exercise a little more control over the kids IP access. Can anyone think of a quick and easy way to accomplish this?

 

[JackMDS]

It should work well with the combo TCP/IP, NetBEUI.

Many Routers have the capacity to block given IPs at the Admin discretion.

Give the Kids static IPs (or reserved IPs within DHCP, if your Router support it). Block the Kids IPs when you want to, and the LAN would be available through NetBEUI.

I have such a system and it works very well.

 

[nweaver]

the nice thing about NetBEUI is that it's non routable, so that makes your file and print sharing non routable (assuming that's the only protocol bound to it) and it usually works better then tcp/ip for finding/resolving names.

 

[TechnoPro]

Originally posted by: spidey07
windows doesn't like multiple network cards. windows networking doesn't like to "see" each other in a home environment.

Solution? Get rid of the extra NICs, use TCP/IP for internet and netbeui for file and print sharing. Or at the very least access each machine with \\ip address instead of browsing to them.

-edit-
I know it sounds like a lame answer, you'll just have to trust me. Without a detailed protocol analysis of what is going on with your network by a very skilled network person cannot really tell you what is going wrong. Windows networking is notorious for not functioning properly unless every single detail is correct, with every machine not rebooted for 4+ hours. FYI - rebooting machines just makes your problems worse.

Spidey:

Experience has shown what you wrote true, but I never knew there was any sound logic behind it. Can you elaborate? What is with the 4+ hour metric?

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: TechnoPro
Spidey:

Experience has shown what you wrote true, but I never knew there was any sound logic behind it. Can you elaborate? What is with the 4+ hour metric?

It has to do with the timings/timers and browser elections. The master browser is the computer that maintains a list of resources. This is the machine that provides you your "network neighborhood." A good sniffer trace of a MS network will show you what is going on. With these traces you'll also see that each computer will assume it is the master browser, then they will start the election process.

I don't know the exact timers involved but it can literally take hours for this election process to get it right. Rebooting machines just resets the counters making the process take longer. I think there is one timer in there that is either 30 or 60 minutes.

Now with WINS this isn't a problem because there is a centralised database of all netbios information. With WINS network browsing works like clockwork with no trouble.

 

[TourGuide]

OK, I have simplified the network by eliminating the second nics and the switch setup. Now all three computers are configured like this:

NIC---->Router

Protocols installed on each PC are:

TCP/IP (bound to nothing else)

Netbeui (bound to file and printer sharing and microsoft networking client)

All computers are setup on the same subnet and workgroup. I just now connected this setup and the only problem I am currently having is that none of the other PCs show up in the Network Places folder, and NO other computers show up in the workgroup page (excepting the PC you're working on - when that happens - sometimes nothing is there). I appear to be able to browse the printers, but that is the extent of it. I cannot print to either network printer, so there is no real connectivity there. Shouldn't I be able to see the shared folders, etc.?

This is really getting annoying.

I'm going to leave them on overnight and see if that doesn't help.

 

[TourGuide]

OK, this blows. Nothing has changed from last night. I left all the computers on overnight and NOTHING has changed. All the PCs pickup the DCP from the router flawlessly, all have net access no problem, but none can see each other, OR share printers.

This is a first. I am stumped.

 

[nweaver]

are you looking ind craptastic neighborcrap? that's your problem. Network browsing without a server (WINS or DNS) is a crapshoot

I would just use UNC paths \\computername\sharename to use resources. If you can't resolve via \\computername then try \\ip\share

 

[TourGuide]

Originally posted by: nweaver
are you looking ind craptastic neighborcrap? that's your problem. Network browsing without a server (WINS or DNS) is a crapshoot

I would just use UNC paths \\computername\sharename to use resources. If you can't resolve via \\computername then try \\ip\share

This doesn't work either. It is like the other computers aren't even there.

 

[nweaver]

so you have folders shared, and you type "\\computer1\share" and nothing happens?

How about typing "\\ipofcomputerone\share"?

also, disable all software firewalls (including windows) and try again.