Need help on new big project! QOS, Switches, and Access Points

[EdwardY]

Hi All - brand spanking new to this forum, so excuse me if I make any forum faux pas. I am attempting to take on a new project, but wanted to share my approach with folks who know better than I do to see if they can offer any better solutions/improvements to my existing proposal.

So here's some background on my project:
- I have a big house (four levels - including a basement level) that has about 25 rooms distributed between all floors.
- Students occupy these rooms and are heavy internet users. (streaming, downloading, etc)
- I have about six residential grade internet connections throughout the house. They are all those crappy modem/router combo gateways the ISP provides. They are situated throughout the house, on every floor, to provide a wireless connection in all areas of the house. I'm spending about $300-400/month to my ISP.
- Side note: While I am tech savvy, I have limited experience with networking. For example, I know how to replace DDWRT firmware on a linksys router, but do not know anything about how to run QOS on a commercial switch.

Problem:
Given that I do not have QOS setup on any of these connections, any one of these connections will come to a crawl once one person decides to torrent/download/stream. Not to mention, sometimes there are too many devices that login to one of the gateways - crashing the hardware. I have many complaints about the internet going down / internet being too slow.

Solution:
Whittle down the connections to one (ie disconnect most of them). Ensure that the one remaining internet connection is fast - at least 50MBPS.

Purchase a commercial grade 24 port switch that has QOS

Purchase eight wireless access points

Purchase a lot of cat5 cables

With the sole internet connection, connect the modem to the commercial grade switch. Run (8) cat 5 cables from the switch to each level of the house so that I have (2) cat 5 cables at each end of the house on each level. Connect the (8) access points to the other ends of the cat 5, providing wireless signals throughout the entire house.

Program the 24 port switch to limit the inbound rate of each port. Distributing the 50MBPS equally into each of the ports.

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QUESTIONS:
1. Overall, is this a sound plan? If not, please provide comments on how to improve the plan.
2. Can you recommend a suitable commercial switch that will fulfill what I need? (I am willing to spend several thousands of dollars on this project if it is required.)
3. Can you recommend suitable access points that will fulfill what I need?
4. I understand that I will need to configure the network switch to limit the inbound rate on each port. I understand this may require a "console cable" and these settings are inputted via a command prompt. I am unfamiliar with this process. Can someone point me to resources that will teach me how to do this?

Please feel free to also point out anything I've missed. Thank you!

 

[Cooky]

The QoS function that commercial grade switches provide doesn't do what you have in mind.
It mainly does queueing, based on CoS or DSCP values.

Your problem is not unique, but I'm not sure what good solution is there, not only for SMB, but also in the enterprise space.

BlueCoat's PacketShaper can provide "equal" chunks of bandwidth, but it's very expensive.
The closest thing I can think of would be the NetEqualizer.
I can't comment on that since I've only had experience w/ the PacketShaper, but not the NetEqualizer.
http://www.netequalizer.com/

As for wireless AP, I'm sure the other members of this forum can make some recommendations.
I only have experience w/ Cisco WAP's that are probably not suitable for SMB deployment.

 

[EdwardY]

The QoS function that commercial grade switches provide doesn't do what you have in mind.
It mainly does queueing, based on CoS or DSCP values.

What about this? It looks like this switch is capable of it - at least from these articles. Then again, I don't know much about this stuff...
http://slaptijack.com/networking/inbound-rate-limiting-on-cisco-catalyst-switches/

http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/data-center/limit-bandwidth-on-a-cisco-catalyst-switch-port/

 

[Cooky]

That's interesting.
They're legitimate, and valid commands.
I just never thought of, or heard anyone using them to achieve your Internet sharing objective.
Let me try that on my lab switch tomorrow.

 

[azazel1024]

No, you need to do the bandwidth limiting at the router, not the switch. I mean, you could do it at the switch, but if most people are connected to one access point, you are freezing out most of the bandwidth.

On the router, with the right one, you can limit each IP through the router to a set bandwidth. THAT is the proper way to do bandwidth limiting.

On a managed/semi-managed switch all you are going to do is limit the port itself. It is IP insensitive (well, except an L3 switch, but I question if any L3 switches have IP based bandwidth limiting. I've never seen one that does anyway), so all you can do is limit the bandwidth through the port, not per connection through the port. See above, not the way you want to do it.

Most/a lot of newish and modestly high end routers in QoS settings can limit bandwidth per connection (which will limit it at the IP layer, so each device is going to be limited).

The way to do all of this.

Get that 24 port switch, or whatever size you need. Probably want semi-managed so you can do some things that a dumb switch can't do (IGMP snooping, storm control, multicast or some other things to limit congestion on the local network, at least if there are going to be a LOT of devices). Run wires to each location that needs a hard wired LAN drop (for desktops and stuff). Run a single access point per floor, utilizing external, resonably high gain antennas, like 5-7dBi (or maybe better 9dBi) antennas. This will limit the access point to really just covering the floor it is on, as it increases the signal on the horizontal, while decreasing it veritcally. So wifi devices on each floor are likely to connect to the access point on their floor.

Set the same SSID for all of them.

Then either get a dedicated router instead of a wifi router, or one of the access points could be a wifi router (or a wifi router with wifi off) and run that in to the cable modem. Turn on bandwidth limiting on the router and you should be good to go. You'll probably also want to turn down DHCP lease time to something small, like 60 minutes or whatever and ensure that the DHCP pool is set to something large enough.

Hopefully with a newer router it should handle all of the devices (should be good for 30-40 devices, if not somewhat more).

 

[azazel1024]

For example, check TP-Link's website for their Archer C7 in the user manual. Section 4.17 Bandwidth control. You can set rules for which devices are limited, by what, the protocols etc.

I haven't played with bandwith control too much on routers, so you may have to set it up for every single IP address you want covered, or it might just do it for each IP within the range you set up (instead of the limit being the entire range). Just a question of how quick it is to setup, versus being able to do it at all (you can do it).

 

[EdwardY]

From what I've seen in most routers, QOS / bandwidth control capabilities can be only be setup MAC address specific. Given that many random devices will be connecting to the WIFI connection, I won't be able to control this.

Anyone know of a router out there that will just limit the amount of traffic per device? Without having to input each devices information?

Also, I've never used high gain antennas. Are they essentially antennas you purchase separately that you stick on your existing router? If so, are they universal - meaning all high gain antennas will fit on most routers - regardless of brand/model?

 

[EdwardY]

No, you need to do the bandwidth limiting at the router, not the switch. I mean, you could do it at the switch, but if most people are connected to one access point, you are freezing out most of the bandwidth.

Set the same SSID for all of them.

Also, what is the advantage of setting the same SSID for all of them?

The building only has four levels, so if I have only four access points with high gain - can I forgo the switch? Assuming I'm not going to setup any purely wired connection (meaning everyone will be connecting via access point).

Also, will one 50MBPS connection be sufficient for 25-30 people? With 40+ devices?

 

[EdwardY]

Also another question:

My understanding is that the access points in this scenarios are essentially just routers themselves? So I'm connecting four routers / access points to one main router? I'm assuming the main router would be an expensive / high quality router, while the access point routers can be a little cheaper? Or should they all be the same brand?

 

[EdwardY]

Sorry for all the posts, but would this work too:
https://www.barracuda.com/products/linkbalancer

 

[avos]

I'm not sure what your price range is, but you could do everything you are after with something like a Sonicwall NSA2600, a couple 3 packs of Ubiquiti AP's (depending on 2.4ghz usage in your area you might have to go with the Pro model for the dual band) and a PoE switch to power the APs. They come with PoE injectors, but if you have to buy a switch you might as well get a PoE one. Ubiquiti sells a pretty nice reasonably priced one.

You could then plug all 6 of your ISP into the NSA2600. Set up a spill over group of all of them. Configure Match objects to apply rate limiting to specific applications or by categories. And provision all of the Access points from 1 computer with the UniFi software.

But now you are into business grade hardware and all the nice features of the Sonicwall or most other business firewalls are going to require a yearly support contract. Still you could probably get away with fewer internet connections if you have load balancing set up and QoS/Bandwidth throttling setup.

All of this of can be done cheaper of course, but not nearly as easily.

 

[CubanlB]

Aruba IAP access points are capable of doing rate limiting per client on the AP. This wont help you if you have clients on the wire though.

http://community.arubanetworks.com/...andwidth-on-Instant-APs-IAP-April/td-p/155768

This is a little heavy handed because LAN resources will be limited as well. and might not give you the flexibility of actually doing shaping closer to the WAN links.

Also might blow the budget too, as they are about $500 per AP.

 

[EdwardY]

So looks like I'll be doing this setup:

Valuepoint 3550 Gateway (apparently, hotels/motels use this quite a bit and it's cheap - can find one used for about $250)

Ubiquiti Access Points (4 of them)

POE Native Switch

questions:
1) Assuming the longest cable run is about 200 feet, what sort of Ethernet cable should I be purchasing? Cat5e or Cat6? I will be purchasing from monoprice assuming they are usually the cheapest online retailer. Also, I'm not sure what all these varieties are: varying mhz, solid vs stranded vs plenum vs stp. Can someone provide some greater insight on which type of cable would be best for my application?

2) Can someone recommend a good POE Native Switch? It can be a dummy switch since the Gateway will be regulating the bandwidth.

 

[azazel1024]

If you checked the manual that I mentioned, the C7's bandwidth limiting function does it on the IP address or range. I am slightly unclear if that is the limit for the entire range, or for each IP within the range.

You CAN do what you want to with it and most routers that support bandwidth restrictions (some/most higher end consumer wifi routers, and most, but not all, consumer/SOHO standalone routers). Most do not do it based on the MAC (most switches that support bandwidth limiting do it on the MAC and/or the port, unless L3 switch with bandwidth control, which might support IP based bandwidth limiting).

As for same SSID, so the clients can roam between the access points. If you use seperate SSIDs, the clients cannot roam, unless they get far enough away to completely drop their wifi connection to the current access point. It would be up to the user to choose the best access point near them. Same SSID for all, the client can then pick which access point is better based on signal strength (it generally takes a certain signal strength difference before a client will roam, but it is then, vaguely, transparent to the user when it happens, other than they keep a strong wifi signal).

For what you are looking at, are you sure that you can do that with POE? 200ft is rather long to supply something with POE, no matter the cable. Since you are looking at POE, get the heaviest gauge wire you possibly can, which will likely be Cat6. Thicker wires = lower power loss and over 200ft, it'll be a big power loss. Cat6 typically, but not always, is one AWG size larger than Cat5e. 5e is generally 25/24AWG and Cat6 is generally 24/23AWG.

Solid only. UTP only. In wall rated wiring (unless you are going to run it through duct work, then it must be plenum rated. Merits/requirements if it'll cross more than one floor are not within my knowledge base for fire codes, I don't believe it is strictly required).

Do NOT get copper clad aluminum (CCA).

 

[avos]

You might want to check to make sure that Valuepoint doesn't require a user license. Looking at their store the 3600 model has concurrent user licenses sold separately. Also the limit of 65mbps throughput is somewhat worrying. I don't know what bandwidth options are available for you, but that seems awful small to be splitting many ways.

 

[EdwardY]

If you checked the manual that I mentioned, the C7's bandwidth limiting function does it on the IP address or range. I am slightly unclear if that is the limit for the entire range, or for each IP within the range.

You CAN do what you want to with it and most routers that support bandwidth restrictions (some/most higher end consumer wifi routers, and most, but not all, consumer/SOHO standalone routers). Most do not do it based on the MAC (most switches that support bandwidth limiting do it on the MAC and/or the port, unless L3 switch with bandwidth control, which might support IP based bandwidth limiting).

As for same SSID, so the clients can roam between the access points. If you use seperate SSIDs, the clients cannot roam, unless they get far enough away to completely drop their wifi connection to the current access point. It would be up to the user to choose the best access point near them. Same SSID for all, the client can then pick which access point is better based on signal strength (it generally takes a certain signal strength difference before a client will roam, but it is then, vaguely, transparent to the user when it happens, other than they keep a strong wifi signal).

For what you are looking at, are you sure that you can do that with POE? 200ft is rather long to supply something with POE, no matter the cable. Since you are looking at POE, get the heaviest gauge wire you possibly can, which will likely be Cat6. Thicker wires = lower power loss and over 200ft, it'll be a big power loss. Cat6 typically, but not always, is one AWG size larger than Cat5e. 5e is generally 25/24AWG and Cat6 is generally 24/23AWG.

Solid only. UTP only. In wall rated wiring (unless you are going to run it through duct work, then it must be plenum rated. Merits/requirements if it'll cross more than one floor are not within my knowledge base for fire codes, I don't believe it is strictly required).

Do NOT get copper clad aluminum (CCA).

Hrm - in that case maybe I should just get an Archer C7 as the main router and then connect the access points through there? Or do you think I should purchase several Archer C7s and set the bandwidth rules and use them as the access points.

 

[alkemyst]

Is this house a business?

You may have legal things to deal with.

 

[EdwardY]

Is this house a business?

You may have legal things to deal with.

Yes, it's a property that is rented to tenants. Feel free to expand.

 

[azazel1024]

Hrm - in that case maybe I should just get an Archer C7 as the main router and then connect the access points through there? Or do you think I should purchase several Archer C7s and set the bandwidth rules and use them as the access points.

Well, you could do that in regards to running them as access points as well, but a number of routers have bandwidth control for the WAN port these days, at least higher end ones. Just look before you buy. User manuals are key here.

I would not set bandwidth on each access point, as you'd have to use them in router mode, which means double NAT. The bandwidth control only works over the WAN connection (at least on the consumer routers that do have it).