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Need help negotiating a salary for a job

slugg

slugg

Diamond Member
I've never had a "real" job, so to speak. Well, there are two companies that are interested in having me work for them.

A company (let's call it Company-A) is the one I'm most interested in working for. Timing is looking pretty good; they've been interested in me for a little while, but recently, I came in for a second tour of the facility and they instantly started talking internship positions, fellowships, etc. I guess they were impressed. I love it there; it's like Disney World for true geeks.

Well, I casually had a little chat with one of the other engineers that has been my contact and is an overall cool guy. I told him I may be available to work earlier than originally expected and that I'm interested in discussing options. He immediately told me that the director literally just asked him to get my resume and salary expectations.

So here's where I'm kind of nervous. If I ask too little, I'll be undercutting myself. If I ask too much, they won't want to negotiate with me.

I tried looking on Glassdoor.com and similar sites to kind of get an idea of what they typically pay. This company has only one anonymously submitted salary range of $77k to $83k for a similar position, but the exact position I'd be filling is unlisted. Obviously, this isn't a reliable measurement.

The position that the other company (let's say Company-B) wants me for has the same title (either "software engineer" or "senior software engineer") and Glassdoor.com reports a range of $58k to $155k with an average of $104k.

Because of the nature of their business, I'm fairly positive that Company-B will pay me more than Company-A. But I know I'd be happier working at Company-A and really want that job, but at same time, I'd like to be able to afford a reasonable lifestyle (wife, kids, recreation).

So I guess the questions I need answered are:
1. What should I tell them for my salary expectation?
2. How does that work with benefits? Are benefits on top of the salary, or is the salary the total worth of everything?

I've never done this before, so I'd really appreciate your help. If anyone wants to talk specifics, I'd prefer to do it via PM, Skype, or something non-public such as this thread.

Thanks in advance 🙂
 
not sure how you think you are going to get a "senior software engineer" position with no prior "real jobs" as you put it.

additionally, with no prior experience, you really don't have any room to negotiate, other than playing the numbers game between the two jobs.

benefits are just part of the total package you have to take into consideration. some places give you 3 weeks vacation, some 5. some places pay your health insurance premiums, some places you pay $600/month. you just gotta look at the whole picture before you decide.
 
purbeast0 said:
not sure how you think you are going to get a "senior software engineer" position with no prior "real jobs" as you put it.

additionally, with no prior experience, you really don't have any room to negotiate, other than playing the numbers game between the two jobs.

benefits are just part of the total package you have to take into consideration. some places give you 3 weeks vacation, some 5. some places pay your health insurance premiums, some places you pay $600/month. you just gotta look at the whole picture before you decide.
Click to expand...

I guess I wasn't clear. I do not expect a "senior" position. What I meant was that I couldn't find any salary information on a non-senior position.

But Company-B already told me I wouldn't be in an entry level position due to my experience and credentials. Not saying it's a "senior" position, but it's not what most people start at straight out of school.

So the numbers game... I'm asking how to play it. 😉
 
1. Post more details to get ATOT numbers on the salary range
2a. Would you take $20k and be happy?
2b. Would you take $30k and be happy?
3c. ...
4. Profit!

You don't need to make mad bank, but you need to not ruin the job by agreeing to work for a salary that will cause you financial stress or unhappiness.
 
If this is your first job, you don't really have room to negotiate. I'd accept what they offer because how can you justify x thousand more?
 
Mide said:
If this is your first job, you don't really have room to negotiate. I'd accept what they offer because how can you justify x thousand more?
Click to expand...

Okay. But like I said, they asked ME for my salary expectations. They haven't given me an offer. I have no baseline. So what do I say?
 
Tell them you expect "fair market value", and let them make the next move, then you negotiate on that number.
 
First, go with company A. You can't buy job satisfaction and unless they're going to pay you a LOT more (which it doesn't sound like) I would go with what you want to do.

Second, for negotiation, first we need to clarify if you're going to be an intern or if you're getting a full-time position, since an intern will likely make less. Also depends on what your credentials are. If you're a top student from a top university (I'm assuming you're a recent grad) you should ask for more than average of course.

As a random ballpark estimate, I would say an internship would probably be in the $50-60k range, entry-level full-time in the $60-80k range. If you have a masters then bump those numbers up by $10k.

Also, feel free to tell them you'd like them to give you a starting number if you're really uncomfortable trying to pick a number. There's nothing wrong with that.
 
esun said:
First, go with company A. You can't buy job satisfaction and unless they're going to pay you a LOT more (which it doesn't sound like) I would go with what you want to do.

Second, for negotiation, first we need to clarify if you're going to be an intern or if you're getting a full-time position, since an intern will likely make less. Also depends on what your credentials are. If you're a top student from a top university (I'm assuming you're a recent grad) you should ask for more than average of course.

As a random ballpark estimate, I would say an internship would probably be in the $50-60k range, entry-level full-time in the $60-80k range. If you have a masters then bump those numbers up by $10k.

Also, feel free to tell them you'd like them to give you a starting number if you're really uncomfortable trying to pick a number. There's nothing wrong with that.
Click to expand...

Your numbers seem a little high. For someone with no work experience, $50-60k is probably what you'll get to start in a moderate standard of living area. For most jobs (at least in my sector of the industry), having a masters isn't going to do a whole lot for you. Software engineering/computer programming is just such a diverse field that a bachelors and even masters can't really get you ready for a specific job.
 
What the others above me have said. You have to take Job A -- you can't put a number on job satisfaction (as long as you can pay your bills and stuff).

Salary wise, you'd be in that 55-80ish range depending on the company and what part of Florida you are in.
 
Be honest. It's ok to explain to them your current situation. You're looking at multiple opportunities, each with a different balance of salary/vacation/bonus/health etc., you're unsure of your market value, so in terms of compensation you're going to consider any offer relative to the others. At the same time, aside from compensation Company A seems like a great place to work and all else aside you'd be really excited to be there.

You're doing yourself and them a disservice by throwing out a number. You are unaware of your market value, therefore if you say $50k and they offer $48k, but your market value is $70k and Company B offers that and you take it, it's because they took your (uninformed) recommendation. Seems odd to me that a company would ask someone with absolutely no knowledge of market rates for advice on what to offer--let them figure that out on their own, unless the goal is to lowball you.
 
My first serious offer for software development out of college (maybe 8 months after?) was $67k. I turned them down and they came back like 2 years later and offered me $79k (they were still looking for people). I also turned that down.

At both points in time I was making like $45k and $63k respectively. Never regretted turning them down due to salary - even though the job sounded WAY better than what I was doing.

But I didn't like where they were located. I asked for more the 2nd time around but they wouldn't budge. I'm glad it didn't work out. I make more than their last offer now and I get paid for overtime which is a huge benefit.

Lesson? Fight for what makes you happy. I want a fair wage for what I'm doing and how valuable I am, not the highest wage I can get. I think the reports are true... once you get past ~$75k, it takes way more and more to have any significant impact on happiness. I can't see me doing anything much differently making $750k a year.

To me, you just need to get to the point where you don't have to WORRY about money. The rest is friends and family.
 
I think Glass Door let's you search for jobs by area, so maybe enter zip code or city / area and see what type of salaries competitors in area are offering?

GM IT jobs article I linked in sig says recent college grads are getting 60 - 70k right out of college, and another video clip on auto makers seemed to indicate 60k as starting range for engineers they were looking for ( http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000114536).
"Software engineers make $60,000 to $70,000 a year right out of college, and experienced workers can make more, says James Stoeckmann, senior compensation specialist for World at Work, an organization of human resources executives who deal with pay issues."

http://bottomline.nbcnews.com/_news...ing-10000-information-technology-workers?lite
Click to expand...


Another member on another thread said he overheard some college students at UCLA (?) got offered $107k from Microsoft and still waiting from Google. But Mark Cuban on CNBC (end of first video clip linked above) said that salaries for engineers have gone through roof on west coast, but that you can still get engineers and smart people less expensively elsewhere:
"Information technology workers averaged a 4.5% increase in pay over the past 12 months. In places like Seattle, "there has been an almost crazy demand for IT workers," said Bardaro."

http://money.cnn.com/2012/10/11/pf/jobs/us-wages-oil-workers/index.html?source=yahoo_hosted
Click to expand...


If company really wants you and you did well in school and have skills they want, I am guessing (please note the word guessing, from tidbits I've read and seen on tv), that you might be worth in the 70 - 80k range as starting point for negotiations. 100k on west coast in high cost of living area where there is acute shortage of engineers might be considered reasonable even for recent college grad (e. g. someone on tv said there are 5 engineering job openings in Silicon Valley now for every engineer that works there. But another poster also said 120k there is like being very poor there because of high cost of living). Another poster on another thread (forgot if it was the IBM bashing one) said front line support engineers at his company in Research Triangle in North Carolina were getting 130k (though I think assumption is that these are employees with years of experience already, and presumably area where there is also high demand for engineers, too, so everyone's salaries have been rising for some time now).

How valuable do you think you would be to each company, in terms of 1) what do you think their HR departments view as unemployment rate for engineers of your type in area (do they really want to fill this position, or are they waiting for right candidate with lots of experience they can pick off from another company but don't want to get into bidding war with another employer), and 2) do you sense that company's growth is being held back because they can't find skilled help to do things they need to do to move company forward?

And like others said, don't forget to look at benefits package, quality of life, and path to further develop skills at job (one article I read said college students skills are outdated within 5 years of graduation).


Good Luck!
 
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GregGreen said:
What the others above me have said. You have to take Job A -- you can't put a number on job satisfaction (as long as you can pay your bills and stuff).

Salary wise, you'd be in that 55-80ish range depending on the company and what part of Florida you are in.
Click to expand...

Can't stress this enough. I could make a little more money if I switched jobs but my current position now is so low stress, I get lots of training, and get to work from home. It would take a HUGE pay increase to get me to leave.
 
So this average of 60k starting... is that for base salary, or total compensation including benefits? Company-B has offered something absurdly higher than 60k. The first digit is a 1.
 
slugg said:
So this average of 60k starting... is that for base salary, or total compensation including benefits? Company-B has offered something absurdly higher than 60k. The first digit is a 1.
Click to expand...

Probably base salary.

Anyways, if you have an offer for that amount from Company B, maybe it's something you take to Company A to give them an idea of the range you're expecting. Who knows, if they want you bad enough, they'll match it straight up or meet somewhere in the middle.
 
purbeast0 said:
not sure how you think you are going to get a "senior software engineer" position with no prior "real jobs" as you put it.

additionally, with no prior experience, you really don't have any room to negotiate, other than playing the numbers game between the two jobs.

benefits are just part of the total package you have to take into consideration. some places give you 3 weeks vacation, some 5. some places pay your health insurance premiums, some places you pay $600/month. you just gotta look at the whole picture before you decide.
Click to expand...

The job is actually for a Señor Software Engineer. They want Hispanics.
 
slugg said:
So this average of 60k starting... is that for base salary, or total compensation including benefits? Company-B has offered something absurdly higher than 60k. The first digit is a 1.
Click to expand...

I'd just consider the minimum number Company A would need to provide in order for you to pass up the other opportunity.

Take that number and average it with your current offer.

So if it is $80k from Company A and you are getting $100k from company b, then ask for $90-$95k.

Then if they come short you could still be happy.
 
Tweak155 said:
I'd just consider the minimum number Company A would need to provide in order for you to pass up the other opportunity.

Take that number and average it with your current offer.

So if it is $80k from Company A and you are getting $100k from company b, then ask for $90-$95k.

Then if they come short you could still be happy.
Click to expand...


The above is good advice, I'd do that. Especially with a number from Company B, you now have a justifiable reason for your offer if company A calls you out on it.


That said, I clearly need a new job, I apparently make jack shit. 🙁
 
If they were going to give you an offer, then I doubt they'd pull it just because your asking price was too high. They almost expect that. If you have a legitimate offer from somebody else then you already have your baseline. Tell them you have an offer for X amount and you'd like them to match it. They'll come back with a "well we'd only be able to offer you Y". In which case you make your decision.
 
compare benefits, perks and relocation costs too. A good health insurance package with dental and eyecare vs a barebones coverage with nothing extra is easily worth an extra 5-10k a year. Compare vacation days, how they deal with rollover vacation days and such as well. A pleasant work environment is a lot easier to tolerate than some company where it feels like a drag just to come into work.
 
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