need help building computer...may give up and go get a gateway...HELP

[techiecool]

ok...i tried to put together my shopping list but i am going crazy w/ all the options and choices. but i really want to build one and not buy a prebuilt. i tried hard using this board and others...i am just too new at this i guess.

my purpose is simple: i want to build a good machine to be able to program and do other general home/office stuff. the extent of my gaming will be yahoo or sim city (sad).
my budget is a bit tight...and hence the problem. i would like to spend enough to get the job done for 2 years out, and then hopefully i can go bigger. i believe you can build 2-3 yr disposable pcs and then rebuild later.

i have considered going amd 1700 and nforce2 igp or spp, going p4 ~2G and cheaper mobo and get nvidia (cheaper 440). but then i realize to run nforce2 igp i have to up the price on ram to pc3200 and then the p4 option w/ pc2700 ram becomes close again. given the fact the nforce2 board can be upgraded to a faster cheap for very little in a year (hence the 1700 now).

case: evercase 4252
psu: sparkle
hd: wd 80G
hsf: vantec aeroflow
cd/dvd: lite-on
cdrw: lite-on
floppy: panasonic

just need the cpu, video, mobo, and memory. any help will be greatly appreciated...

 

[Wiseguy69]

How much you looking to spend?

Athlon 1700 is pretty cheap right now. Also check Anand's price guides for a good nforce 2 mobo that fits ur needs. Then pick up an Ati 9500 for around $160. Ram is always on sale somewhere. Keep checking hot deals for good prices or just go to newegg for a one stop shop.

All of this is about $400-450. You can always cut more.

 

[techiecool]

would like to keep the cpu/mobo under 200, video <60, and memory < 160 for 2 x 512M. i have been looking at the via kt333 and 400. considering i have no need for 3d gaming performance how will mobos on those chipsets suit me?

also i just saw a cpu/mobo at frys...199 for a 2.5G p4 bare and an ecs p4vxasd2+, i would jump on it but the mobo seems like crap...any confirmations on that one?

 

[foofoo]

hi,
since you are not a hard core gamer. i'd reccoment one of the following two systems

amd based---
CHAINTECH Motherboard for AMD Processors, Model# 7NIF2-SUMMIT NFORCE2/IGP u-ATX-RETAIL $99
AMD ATHLON XP 2400 /266 FSB PROCESSOR CPU- OEM $130
Thermaltake VOLCANO 9, Copper base inserted, SMART & SILENT. Retail. $20


intel based--
SOLTEK SL-85MR3-CL, INTEL 845GE Chipset, Intel P4 Motherboard - RETAIL $87
Intel Pentium 4 2.4BGHz 512K 533MHz CPU Northwood P478 Processor Retail Box $162


for either, i'd get 2 x 256mb true samsung pc2700

the built in graphics on the nforce 2 mb are more than good enough for what you are doing.
the built in graphics on the p4 system are ok as well, though you could upgrade to an radeon 8500le for cheap and get much better.

prices are from newegg.com except for the volcano 9, that's from svc.com

hope this helps

 

[techiecool]

helps a lot. can't thank you enough. and to explore the amd/intel option, what mobo w/out graphics would you go with?

is the 2 sticks enough because i will be running sql server 2k and visual studio .Net on either XP Pro or 2000 server.

 

[foofoo]

and to explore the amd/intel option, what mobo w/out graphics would you go with?

hi,
for the amd option i'd go
FIC Motherboard for AMD Processors, nForce2 Model AU13 Retail $85
---this is the same as the epox 8rda+ but much cheaper

for the intel option i'd go
ALBATRON INTEL 845PE Chipset ATX Motherboard Model PX845PEV PRO Retail $81.99

your price wants got added while i was posting. you could drop to a slower processor in each case to hit the price point.
i think that ram is getting really cheap now, you could go for 2 x 512. cnet was selling crucial pc2700 512 sticks for $52 each. you might try looking for that.

good luck

 

[techiecool]

so between the two setups which would you go with:

1. amd 1700- $ 50 (OEM)
epox 8rga+ -$135
HSF- $ 30
---------------------------
Total $215

2. p4 2.4- $162 (retail includes HSF/fan)
msi 655 $110
vid card $ 50
---------------------------
Total $322

Rest of the system is the same...

So the difference would be about $110. It seems like the second system (p4) represents better value. The raw cpu speed is a 1Ghz difference i believe and you still are dual channel. Comments?

 

[foofoo]

hi,
the second one definitely is faster but does break the bank on your price point. i was looking for cheaper solutions.
the chaintech mb + xp2100 thoroughbred could be had for under $200.
the albatron mb + 2.4 could be for ~$250
the second choice you gave is better but costs more. if money isnt so tight as you were saying before, go for it.
good luck

 

[techiecool]

foofoo appreciate your help on this greatly, thanks.

well, i'd really like to stick to my budget. but i started to think about the fact that an extra $100 or so now may make the system last another year or so, and that would probably be worth it. i may cut out the extra cd/dvd and floppy cause i really don't NEED those right now. after looking at the recommendations you made, i decided that the p4 was the way i wanted to go. the only thing left that i was thinking about was whether to get the soltek 845GE mobo you recommended or get a sis 655 + video card combo. that's where i'd have to spend an extra $80 or so more than i would like, but if the performance and longevity is better than i'd stretch a bit more for it. so i guess it's the 845GE/PE vs. sis655...

 

[mechBgon]

A7N266-VM (onboard video, LAN, excellent Soundstorm audio with digital-outs)
AthlonXP 2400+, retail
2 x 512Mb Crucial PC2100
18Gb Seagate Cheetah 15k.3 (hypermicro.com)
LSI Logic Ultra160 SCSI controller kit with cable/terminator (hypermicro.com)
Antec Plus660AMG case/power supply
APC SmartUPS 650VA UPS (hey, it's a work system, right? )
and the optical drives of your choice


The 15k.3 doesn't offer a lot of capacity, but it's extremely quick/fast, reasonably quiet at idle, and built/warranted to run 24/7 for five years. The motherboard doesn't let you tweak, but it's very reliable and the PCI performance makes it a great choice for a SCSI setup, much better than the KT333 board I've tried.

As a comparison, I have the X15-36LP, predecessor to the 15k.3. I had it in a system similar to the spec above, except with a 1700+. For our HR guy, I built an nForce2-based system, with Corsair PC3200C2, a 2200+, and the 80Gb Western Digital Special Edition. The SCSI drive made my lowly nForce1 1700+ system feel more responsive than the nForce2/2200+ system. I should've quantified that with some benchmarks, such as a virus scan of an arbitrary large amount of files... oh well.

If you really want to splurge on something for doing actual work, consider getting a dual-monitor setup. Like the SCSI drive, it should hold its value a lot longer than the same money spent on the top-of-the-line CPU.

 

[Redviffer]

So... not to be one against building your own computer, but if you've NEVER done it before, you may end up finding that you spend more than you really intended (at least I always do).

Going over to Dells & Gateway's websites, you can pick up their basic systems (Dell 2350 at $449 or Gateway 300S at $599). Both of these systems come with a monitor (which I believe you can actually configure it to NOT come with a monitor and get it even cheaper). Both come with 2.0+GHz P4's Celerons (which are perfectly suitable for what you do as per your post), and both come with lots of other goodies. Plus, they both come with warranties. This is something that may actually interest you more than anything else. If your system breaks, who you gonna call? Also, you can sell all your old stuff and make some money back if your not going to use it in the new systems. And what's worse, if you order all your stuff, put it together, and one part doesn't work (hey, it does happen), now you have to deal with RMA issue, or going down to the local BB and getting that one part which now costs you double.

I'm just giving you the caution part of system building. Whenever I build a new system for myself, it's to replace an already working system. This way I can take my time with it, and I don't have to fuss over NEEDING it to work the first time. I'm certainly one for building your own system, so don't take my advice as not to do it, just think it over. You will be stuck with what you have once its done.

 

[mechBgon]

2GHz Celeron probably has the performance of about a 1GHz Duron, so keep that in mind if considering a Happy-Meal computer from Gateway or Dell. When it comes to word processing and Internet browsing, it'll be fine, but when you need some CPU power (such as when the daily virus scan kicks off), you'll benefit from the power of a Pentium4 1.8A or AthlonXP. If your programming work involves any CPU-intensive episodes, that's another reason to avoid Celerons.

 

[techiecool]

actually building for me will be significantly cheaper. i have a msdn subscription which gives me access to any OS ($100-200 savings). gateway systems for a decent processor is near a grand. this pc will mostly before development and not production. i am starting a home consulting business. most of my coding will be .net web applicatons running on iis/.net server. this system will be resource hungry if anything. but your point is valid that if you build it, you own it...but hey anandtech is a great resource w/ friendly, helpful people for when you run out of solutions yourself.

i think i could even run everything i need on a p3 700. we have 2 production servers that are p3 800Mhz and run slow, but effectively well. but a p3 system vs amd xp vs p4, the only difference is in cost of the cpu/mobo/ram. the rest of the rig will cost the same (case, hdd, cd/rw, psu, video). and i was figuring that saving $100-$125 on a cheaper setup (regardless of amd/intel) would be short sighted of me. although i would love to spend the least i can now, it may not be a better return on investment (roi) over the next 2-4 years (boy the IT world now seems to live by ROI now).

microsoft recommend minimum is a p3 600 w/ 256 ram for the OS and software i want to run...

my only dilemna was to get the 845 or sis655 chipsets. it seems really close. but dual channel may be the way to go. i would go scsi, but since this isn't a production machine i think it matters a little less. thanks.

 

[techiecool]

been looking at newegg. and the amd sweet spot right now seems to be the 1700 (oem) include $30 for a hsf + $52= $82. at the amd 2400 level, you're talking $25 difference between p4 and amd ($162 vs $136). but for an extra $80 you're at 1Ghz more power almost. seems like a good investment to make the machine last an extra year. my thinking could be wrong.

 

[Redviffer]

Originally posted by: mechBgon
2GHz Celeron probably has the performance of about a 1GHz Duron, so keep that in mind if considering a Happy-Meal computer from Gateway or Dell. When it comes to word processing and Internet browsing, it'll be fine, but when you need some CPU power (such as when the daily virus scan kicks off), you'll benefit from the power of a Pentium4 1.8A or AthlonXP. If your programming work involves any CPU-intensive episodes, that's another reason to avoid Celerons.

Actually, the 2.0 GHz Celeron is more like the Athlon XP 1700+, this is from benchmarks from Sharky, Benchmark.pl, Tomshardware, etc. Plus, it can overclock like crazy. (overclocking doesn't do it much for games, but for regular windows applications like the ones Techicool is going to be doing, it totally rocks).

 

[optimistic]

How about an
$160 P4 2.4B
$109 MSI 655 MAX-LS
$70 2x 256MB PC2700
$83 Radeon 9100 128MB
=$422=

 

[everman]

If you don't play games at all, and do a lot of work involving text (programming), then a matrox G550 may be a good choice. Matrox is known for great 2d graphics (sharp text), and this card can drive 2 monitors should you choose to use 2. It's also $100, quite a bit cheaper than the radeons people are proposing. And it also does not use a fan = no noise. (assuming you try to build a quiet system).

 

[mechBgon]

Originally posted by: Redviffer

Originally posted by: mechBgon
2GHz Celeron probably has the performance of about a 1GHz Duron, so keep that in mind if considering a Happy-Meal computer from Gateway or Dell. When it comes to word processing and Internet browsing, it'll be fine, but when you need some CPU power (such as when the daily virus scan kicks off), you'll benefit from the power of a Pentium4 1.8A or AthlonXP. If your programming work involves any CPU-intensive episodes, that's another reason to avoid Celerons.

Actually, the 2.0 GHz Celeron is more like the Athlon XP 1700+, this is from benchmarks from Sharky, Benchmark.pl, Tomshardware, etc. Plus, it can overclock like crazy. (overclocking doesn't do it much for games, but for regular windows applications like the ones Techicool is going to be doing, it totally rocks).

That might be true in some instances, if the system is built to full advantage. But if you buy a Happy-Meal computer you're probably going to get i845GL or i845GLL, and guess what that means... yep, the onboard video is sharing the memory bandwidth that the CPU needs so desparately.

Here's a tidbit from Anand's preview of nForce2, to give some insight on the impact of stealing bandwidth from an i845 platform to feed integrated graphics:

The conclusion: there's no performance drop in 2D when using the nForce2's IGP over a GeForce4 Ti 4600. We're running similar benchmarks for another review and to give you an idea of how Intel's 845G fares in this test, discrete graphics is around 11% faster than the 845G's integrated graphics in Business Winstone 2001. Do you see one reason why nForce isn't high on Intel's list of chipsets to support the Pentium 4?

How relevant is that in the context of a daily-usage scenario? I don't know. People don't really work at the warp-speed pace of a scripted Winstone test. But it's food for thought... and if your system has i845GL or i845GLL, you'd better be content with it, because these chipsets have no AGP slots.