Need Help and Advice on Challenging new System

[dariushou1]

Below are the components in my new system followed by my intended setup and questions. Any advice and suggestions on the setup will be greatly appreciated. The system is a bit complicated and should be quite challenging to configure. It seems a bit long, but it is in outline format. Thanks ahead of time.

Core:

Motherboard: Asus P4T533
CPU: Pentium 4 2.53 GHZ
RAM: 1GB RIMM4200 ( PC1066 232 pin )

Hard Drives:

(4) Fujitsu 18.4GB 15K RPM ULTRA160 SCSI (MAM3184MP)(68 Pin)
(1) IBM Ultra2 9.1GB 9LZX Ultra2 SCSI
(1) Seagate Cheetah 9.1GB Ultra160 SCSI (ST39205LC) (80 Pin)
(1) Fujitsu 9.1GB Ultra160 SCSI (MAH3091MC) (80 Pin)
(1) Maxtor ATA Ultra 133 160GB IDE
(1)Maxtor ATA Ultra 100 30GB IDE (May put in my sons computer if there are
problems)

AGP Card:

(1) Gainward Geforce4 Ti4600 Powerpack

PCI Cards:

(1) 3400s Adaptec Scsi 4 channel Ultra160 SCSI Raid Card
(1) 39160 Adaptec Ultra160 SCSI Card (2 independent Ultra160
Channels and 1 50 pin)
(1) Soundblaster Audigy Platnium Card
(1) Dazzle Digital Video Creator 2
(1) Maxtor ATA 133 PCI Card
(1) Hauppauge Win TV-D

50 PIN SCSI Devices

(1) Creative DVD-RAM
(1) Onstream 30GB Tape Drive
(1) Iomega JAZ 2GB
(1) Iomega 100MB Zip Drive

IDE Drives:

(1) Plextor 40/12/40A CD-RW/R (ATA 33)
(1) Pioneer DVD 106s/2 (ATA 66)
(1) HP DVD200i DVD+RW/R (ATA 33)

Other Relevant Stuff:

Roughly 20 Fans and 8 Hard Drive Coolers (Sounds like a jet engine?ok for me)
Windows XP Professional

Here are the questions regarding setup for optimal performance:

(1) First, Scsi Hard Drive Placement:
This is what I have come up with:
-On the 3400s I will have two Raid Arrays:
1. 3 of the Fujitsu 18.4GB 15K RPM ULTRA160 SCSI Drives each on its
independent channel in a RAID 0 configuration.
2. Another RAID 0 configuration consisting of the Fujitsu 9.1GB Ultra160
SCSI Drive and the Seagate Cheetah 9.1GB Ultra160 SCSI Drive.
The Questions Regarding this:
1. I?ve talked with Adaptec and they see no problems with having an array over
Multiple channels and will not cause a performance decrease. I just don?t want any bottleneck, which may be a problem with 3 of the Fujitsu 15K drives on one channel. Does anyone see a problem with this or have any input?
2. I know you should always have the exact same drives in a Raid Array, but does
Anyone see a problem with the 2nd array I?m doing, since they are different brands?but they are the same size?
3. As will be seen in a moment I plan on putting my last Fujitsu 18.4GB 15K RPM
ULTRA160 SCSI Drive on the Adaptec 39160 Drive and boot Windows XP Pro
From there. This brings me to one of the most important questions. I have read
many posts and I?ve come to the conclusion that it?s best to separate the operating
system and applications (more of this later) on its on hard drive. I do not
understand this. What is the benefit of having raid (for performance) if the
operating system and applications are not on the RAID Array??? It would seem
to me that I should put all 4 of the Fujitsu 15K Ultra160 Drives in an array and
boot the operating system and applications from that?? If there is a reason for this
please let me know and also what gets stored on the RAID Array for a performance
increase if the OS and Apps are not on the Array?? Please, any input on this
would be greatly appreciated!!!!
4. What about Stripe Sizes? What is the Optimal level? 90% of my files will be
Under 10MB and most of that will be under 5MB. I?ve read that it?s best to have
A 64k stripe size is best for overall performance. Is this right?

-On the Adaptec 39160 this is what I plan. This takes into account that I will boot
the OS and Apps from here (see question 3 right above).
1. On Channel A I will have the Fujitsu 18.4GB 15K RPM ULTRA160 SCSI
Drive if this is the best thing for performance to do. If I do this how do I set it up concerning partitions? I?ve heard it?s best to have one partition for the OS and another for apps(concerning apps I have heard it?s best to have an additional one for games) and another for a Swap/Page file. Also, is it best to do without the swap/page file since I will have over 1GB of ram. This is the 2nd most important question!!
2. On Channel B I will have the IBM 9LZX and on the 50 pin connector I
Will have all the Ultra SCSI Drives. No question here?straight forward.

(2) Hard Drive and DVD/Cd IDE Drive Placement:
--I?m really lost here. Where should I put the 5 IDE Devices (4 DVD/CD drives and
the two hard Drives)? One hard drive is ATA 133 and the other is ATA 100. The
Plextor and HP drive are ATA 33 and the Pioneer 106s/2 is ATA 66.
--On the motherboard I have two ATA 100 connectors and two ATA 133 Raid
Connectors. On the Maxtor PCI card I have 4 ATA 133 Connectors.
(1) How should I set this up? Can I put any of the DVD/CD drives on the
Maxtor PCI Card or on the raid connectors on the motherboard? Can the
Hard Drives be put on the Raid Connectors on the motherboard without a
Raid Array?? Finally, will having say an ATA 66 and ATA 33 on the same channel decrease performance of the ATA 66 Drive?? I?m a bit lost here and need help.

Final Questions:

(1) The server case I have is double sided and has two 400W power Supplies, but I
Believe I will need more. I would like to note that having two 400Watt PS is not like having one 800 Watt PS. I would like to get two 550+ Redundant power supplies, but I?m having trouble finding one. Any suggestions regarding this???

Any more info or advice about anything would be greatly appreciated. Thank You for the help.

 

[dariushou1]

bump

 

[Den]

I think you do not need the 39160, you should be able to get all your drives on the 3400. I am too lazy to look up the maximum sustained throuput of the Fujitsu 15k drives, but I bet it is less than 80MB/sec. If so, you could put 2 on each channel (using 2 channels) leaving 2 channels for the other drives (2 on 1 channel say the 2 you are raiding and 1 on the last channel). This should be just as fast as using 2 cards, and perhaps even faster depending on too many factors to guess You can either put the 50 pin devices on the last channel here (using adapters of course) or just buy a cheaper 50 pin card, the 39160 is overkill.

The advice to not have the OS and APPS on the RAID array is really from the server world, once the OS is booted and your server apps are loaded in RAM, there should be minimal IO to those files. So you put all your data and/or your database on the RAID array since that is what gets hit a lot. It also makes a BIG difference what kind of RAID array you run. Are we talking raid 0 or 1 or 1/0 or 0/1 or 5? Assuming you are using this as a personal machine not a file or DB server, it makes good sence to put the OS and Apps on the main array, and just use all 4 drives to make the array. If you are using RAID 5 for the array, you may want to move the swap file to a different drive or array. The reason is RAID 5 is very fast at reading data, but not so fast at writing, especially random writes (which is what a swap file does much of the time) If you need to read up on RAID, try this Link. I have a RAID 5 array made up of 4 120GB IBM IDE hard drives (on an Adaptec 2400a controler) and a single 120GB HD connected to the MB for swap space and temporary storage. I have 1 huge 345 GIG partition on the RAID 5 array which is my C drive and has everything on it but the swap and temp areas.

For the IDE stuff, you CAN put IDE HD's on the raid controler even if you do not want to make an array with them, but you can not put anything but HD's on the RAID controler. So, put your IDE hd's on the RAID controler and your 4 DVD/CD devices on the MB's 2 ports. Pair them such that the 2 you think you are most likely to use at the same time are not on the same channel. Also, you do not need the ATA133 PCI card. Many tests have shown basically 0 performance advantage to using ATA133 instead of ATA100, current hard drives just are not fast enough to make a difference. This is why no one does it but Maxtor. Also assuming you do not already have the Maxtor 120GB hd and assuming you want the fastest possible IDE hd, get a Western Digital Caviar WD1200JB. Here is a link showing this is the best IDE HD.

As far as if a dual 400 watt PSU is enough, look up the specs for all the HD's and fans, add up the total watts, add about 100 for the CPU and MB and look up the specs for the GForce. If all this adds up to close to 400, you will need a bigger PSU. Why do you want Dual? If you buy 2 single powersupplies it will probably be cheaper than a DUAL and you will only be down as long as it takes you to swap supplies in the unlikely event that the one you are using ever fails. That way you should be able to get a higher watt supply as well.

Whew, long post, hope this helps. I will monitor the thread, so if you have any qustions about what i said ask away.

 

[dariushou1]

Thanks for the quick response Den.

Well i already have both the 3400s and 39160 cards. The sustained rate on the Fujitsu 15K drives is roughly 55mb so i wouln't want to put more than one per channel, which of course you said i have plenty of room for. However, i do just have a 32 bit pci slot for the card so that gives me room for just 132mb/s, which is pushing it. I know it will probably work, but i want to be safe. That's why i'm thinking just one per channel. I really liked what you said about having all 4 Fujitsu drives in a RAID 0 Array and booting from there.

Question though: Should i not separate the OS, Apps, Games, and swap file?(Partitions--I'm cluelesson this matter) If so how do u do that with a raid array? I've heard you should do with out the swap file--especially with 1GB of ram. Have you ever heard of any problems of booting with from a raid array? I need as much input on this matter as possible.

I was thinking the exact same thing with the IDE setup. Perfect!!! Leaves me room for my DXR3 Decoder card. I don't even want to comment on the Western digital drives--would of bought 2 of them, but i got the damn 160GB Maxtor before they came out. Oh well.

About the power supply. I already have 2 redundant power supples 400 Watt. Have the chip they plug into and everything. But, would like to get a more powerful redundant one. Just one, i don't have to need both. One reason is that the cables that come out of the housing are much longer and since my case is a double sided server case the ATX Power Connector to MB needs to be extra long since they are on opposite sides. I really like the enermax(sp?) 550 Watt power supply though.

Need more help and advice. any little bit helps guys & gals. i'm sure this helps a lot of us out there.

 

[dariushou1]

bumb

 

[Den]

Multiple SCSI cards will not help you with the PCI bandwidth limitation, the PCI bandwidth is shared between all cards. Actually, this is part of why it can be faster to have all the HD's on the same card, the card's internal bandwidth is often more than PCI's bandwidth. So you could copy something from one drive to another faster. Also, if your drives are 55 MB/sec putting 2 on a 160 channel is not pushing it at all. Even 3 would barely be able to saturate it (3x55 = 165).

I have everything on one partition, but you can certainly make more if you like. Making partitions on a RAID array is the same as doing it on a normal HD. When you first boot, you go into the card's bios (I am assuming the 3400 is a raid controler) and set up the raid array (select the drives and the kind of array you want). When that finishes building, you start installing the OS. You will need to get your 3400 drivers on a floppy, and if you are intalling win2k, there is a point early in the setup boot process where you hit F8 (I think thats the key, it says what to push on the screen) to install the RAID drivers. Once you are done there, windows sees the raid array as a single HD, and you treat it like one. One caveat, even if you have your MB bios configured to boot off SCSI first, when the windows installer sees and IDE HD it assumes that is the boot drive. So, when you first install windows, leave the IDE hd's disconnected. Once you have windows installed on the SCSI RAID array and have rebooted enough times to have really finished the install and made sure the Adaptec drivers are loaded, then connect the IDE hd's. As long as your bios is set to boot SCSI before IDE, you will boot from the array no problem.

Running raid 0 is somewhat dangerous especially on 4 drives. If any one of the dirves has a problem (which is 4 times more likely than a single drive having a problem) you will loose all the data on all 4 drives. RAID 0/1 or RAID 5 would be much safer and not too much slower.

The enermax power supply I have has a very long power connector, about 24". You should check the specs on the one you want, but it may well be long enough. Also, I think you can actually buy extensions for those connectors as well.

 

[dariushou1]

Thanks Again Den.

Well, my pci slots are 32pit, which means the board can only handle 132mb/second so two shouldn't be a problem but 3 will definately cause a bottle neck. I'm thinkning now to put the 4 Fujitsu's on the 3400s (maybe two per channel) and boot my OS from there. Maybe even partition it so that the OS, apps, and games are separate from the rest of the array. How does this sound?

Also, what about my other raid array with the two different HD's. The Seagate Cheetah 9.1GB Ultra160 SCSI and the Fujitsu 9.1GB Ultra160 SCSI Drives. They are different brands, but are the same size. Do you see any problem with having this in a RAID Array?

That leaves me with 1 scsi hard drives and one channel left on the 3400s. Since i already bought the 39160 for only $165.00 i will probably just keep it if i plan on doing anything with the system in the future and just put the IBM U2 9lzx on it and all the 50 pin devices on it as well. I actually have a IBM 9.1GB Ultra Wide drive that i can put on the second drive, but will probably just give that to my son.

Anymore ideas on the system??? I have had similar systems in the past--just not as many hard drives and never RAID. This should be quite fun putting together. Please no conflicts--yeah right.

 

[Yossarian]

I gotta ask, what do you plan on using that system for?

 

[Den]

I honestly think it should not really matter how you partition it.

I think you should be ok having the 2 different brands of 9 gig drive together in an array, the only problem you might have there is it could be a little slower than if you had 2 of the same drives in it, since the drives will do thing with slightly different timings, and for the raid it's not done until both are done . Just make sure you get each SCSI chain terminated I think you should be OK. If you don't use the second SCSI card and you don't use the IDE controler, that should help reduce your risk of conflicts...

 

[dariushou1]

Thanks Den. Any more advice out there??? Would love to have more input--where's the diversity??

 

[dariushou1]

Bump

 

[Den]

I think your original request was a little on the large side
If you have qustions still that you want others to address, try making a couple of threads with 1 or 2 specific questions in each. It took me a long time to read thru your questions and respond, most will not take the time on such a large post...