Need a new water heater - go tankless?

[Jeff7181]

The water heater is in a small utility closet/pantry where the washer & dryer and breaker panel are.

The gas furnace is in a bedroom closet. The water heater is on the opposite side of the condo. I don't believe I'd be allowed to run new gas or water lines.

So my options are tank or tankless... electric only. Sounds like with the electrical work required, if I could even do it, would be so much more expensive that it wouldn't make sense.

So now the question becomes, what brand? Home depot has several models under $300. Are they any good? I'd like to put something efficient in and be able to forget about it for 5-10 years... but I don't want to spend too much... under $400 would be ideal. Is that asking too much for too little?

 

[DrPizza]

The water heater is in a small utility closet/pantry where the washer & dryer and breaker panel are.

The gas furnace is in a bedroom closet. The water heater is on the opposite side of the condo. I don't believe I'd be allowed to run new gas or water lines.

So my options are tank or tankless... electric only. Sounds like with the electrical work required, if I could even do it, would be so much more expensive that it wouldn't make sense.

So now the question becomes, what brand? Home depot has several models under $300. Are they any good? I'd like to put something efficient in and be able to forget about it for 5-10 years... but I don't want to spend too much... under $400 would be ideal. Is that asking too much for too little?

IF you have 200 Amp service, since the breaker panel & hot water heater are in the same closet, as I said above, the electrical costs would be relatively trivial; less than $100 for material, and plus labor if you can't do that yourself. I think (I could be mistaken; you'd have to check code) that liquid tight flexible conduit would be allowed. It's less than $1 per foot. The wire will run you around $2 per foot. The fittings for the end of the liquidtight even include the lugs for tightening them inside the box. Plus a 5 pack of brackets to mount the conduit, 3 breakers, and that's it for electrical parts.

Advantage - you'll never run out of hot water while taking a shower.
Disadvantage - it's not necessarily about saving money, since in the long run, especially if you have to pay for installation, you'll never break even with the monthly savings.

edit: I glanced too quickly; I was thinking that's weird - 3 single pole breakers; the top of the voltage column was 120V; I never gave it another glance. Double the cost of the copper; about $4-5 per foot. Still cheap, compared to the cost of the heater. And, you need 6 slots in the box, not 3.

 

[imagoon]

The install (being a few feet) doesn't look that scary to me, but I also installed subpanels at my house (to code etc) so running 60amp @240V and the like doesn't phase me. As mentioned check code requirements. I know here solid conduit would be required and the fill rate of 6, 8 gauge copper cables and likely a ground might exceed what NEMA suggests which if you are ever inspected, will cause you to fail. Also god help you if you burn the condos down.

You would need a few things. Copper wire which isn't the cheapest, red or blue electrical tape (normally red, remember the code thing?) to mark the phases. 3 x 40amp breakers for your panel and 6 breaker slots. You cannot (nor do I recommend) those dual breakers you need full size. Any and all fittings for the conduit of whatever type. From there is it mostly a flat head screw driver and something to cut the wire with.

The other issue you may have is that your panel is likely live at all times. Some areas won't let you do any of this without a license so fyi.

Since this is a condo I would really recommend that you follow the rules on this. If something happens and a fire is traced back to your install, they will ask who did it and when you answer "I did" you will have many lawsuits to deal with because your neighbors won't appreciate you burning their place down.

 

[Mayne]

a standard water heater is god's gift. Do not go tankless. If you ever have problems with it ..the guy is gonna have to order the part which could take up to 1-2 weeks to get...then he's going to charge you huge.

Standard water heater there is nothing to break on it.

*I do this for a living*

 

[MongGrel]

We have 3 smaller electric ones, there's a fairly loud click on each one every time the hot water kicks in. Also, too much flow and it just shuts off, so there's low flow added to each faucet.

I'd stay away from electric tankless for sure, and perhaps tankless all together.

I'd thought about it, and on research I wouldn't go there.

 

[MongGrel]

Mine's on it's last legs had to read up a bit and it's a heat pump hybrid thing.

I've even rebuilt it once myself on the coils etc about 10 years back, it's just old and inefficient.

It's not even connected to the new heat pump, ought to rip that stuff out, but it's not hurting anything where it is.

I think I'm just going with a larger, more efficient tank myself.

 

[ManyBeers]

The water heater is in a small utility closet/pantry where the washer & dryer and breaker panel are.

The gas furnace is in a bedroom closet. The water heater is on the opposite side of the condo. I don't believe I'd be allowed to run new gas or water lines.

So my options are tank or tankless... electric only. Sounds like with the electrical work required, if I could even do it, would be so much more expensive that it wouldn't make sense.

So now the question becomes, what brand? Home depot has several models under $300. Are they any good? I'd like to put something efficient in and be able to forget about it for 5-10 years... but I don't want to spend too much... under $400 would be ideal. Is that asking too much for too little?

The 4-plex I live in just had it's 22 year old Sears Kenmore 65 gallon water heater replaced with another Sears Kenmore unit. 22 years! forget Home Depot.

 

[NutBucket]

Probably from made in the same Mexican factory these days....

 

[richardycc]

OP,

Just replaced a 40 gallon water heater at home. My girlfriend was ready to spend the extra coin on a tankless water heater, so we found a local plumber who was a friend of her father's. He quoted a price of $4,000 to replace the existing gas water heater with an indoor tankless unit...

and a price of $975 to upgrade the existing 40 gallon gas heater with a larger 50 gallon gas unit.

He said, "An honest plumber won't sell you a tankless water heater... unless you have a large family (OP is single and living alone), the minimal cost savings of tankless won't repay your high initial investment before you have to replace it again."

He also said that most people that inquire about tankless tend to be younger females who want to "go green".

We went with the 50 gallon traditional gas unit.

$975 to install a 50gallon gas heater? I can get a random plumber to do that for less all day long. Guess he isn't really a good friend of her father.

 

[Jeff7181]

a standard water heater is god's gift. Do not go tankless. If you ever have problems with it ..the guy is gonna have to order the part which could take up to 1-2 weeks to get...then he's going to charge you huge.

Standard water heater there is nothing to break on it.

*I do this for a living*

I see a vote for Sears, what say you?

 

[Jeff7181]

By the way, it looks like mines actually a 40 gallon. A.O. Smith EES 40

 

[Metron]

$975 to install a 50gallon gas heater? I can get a random plumber to do that for less all day long. Guess he isn't really a good friend of her father.

Removal of previous, replacement of gas line and new shut off valve, ACQUISITION and installation of new 50 gallon heater.

Where do you live richard, Bosnia?

 

[MongGrel]

Still sounds a lot high to me.

I'm not going that high at least I guess.

Not meaning to be rude.

 

[Metron]

Still sounds a lot high to me.

I'm not going that high at least I guess.

Not meaning to be rude.

Unit itself ran about $500, sundry parts and labor... I was happy with that.

The plumber that Home Depot connected me with gave an estimate of nearly $2,000...

I have a co-worker who paid $1,500 to have his gas water heater (40 gallon) replaced last month...

And, I had quotes for $4,000 - $6,000 for a high capacity gas tankless water heater.

$975 was a bargain

 

[NetWareHead]

Unit itself ran about $500, sundry parts and labor... I was happy with that.

The plumber that Home Depot connected me with gave an estimate of nearly $2,000...

I have a co-worker who paid $1,500 to have his gas water heater (40 gallon) replaced last month...

And, I had quotes for $4,000 - $6,000 for a high capacity gas tankless water heater.

$975 was a bargain

I got a quote recently to install a 40 gallon tank water heater (gas) in my property and it was around 900-1000 as well. Purchase of new heater, install and disposal of old one,

 

[vi edit]

Gas heaters can be fairly expensive depending on their configuration. Some of them have powervents that add a couple hundred bucks to the cost. They also have quite a few more mechanical parts and the added element of working with natural gas piping which requires a bit more skill/caution.

 

[Muse]

I like my tankless. Has never given me trouble. However, I don't use it much, which might have something to do with that. It was installed around 10 years ago. I set the thermo at 115, which is perfect 'cause I can turn the shower on high heat and don't have to adjust it. Fine for the washing machine, sinks. I'm sure it keeps my gas bills down. Have insulation on my pipes, which helps.

Mine is gas, is mounted on the outside of the building, it was installed and paid for by a city financed agency. It was their idea and I said "great!" It includes the digital display indoors control for temp, on/off, 5 degree increments. A friend of mine, quite by coincidence, personally installed the same unit in his house, without the optional (~$100) control unit. He gave me the idea of insulating the pipes. There's no gas pilot light, it uses electricity to fire up the gas burner. So, if you have a power outage, you don't have hot water until power is restored. Whenever you use it, it does make a whoooshing noise, which I believe is a self-maintenance procedure to cool itself. That turns off in ~45 seconds, I'd guess. It's not terribly loud, but it could be a factor in deciding where to mount the unit, along with proximity issues.

 

[mvbighead]

a standard water heater is god's gift. Do not go tankless. If you ever have problems with it ..the guy is gonna have to order the part which could take up to 1-2 weeks to get...then he's going to charge you huge.

Standard water heater there is nothing to break on it.

*I do this for a living*

Really? A standard water heater has nothing that will break on it? Pressure release valve? Thermocouple? Etc?

If a standard water heater has nothing to break, why does it ever need to be replaced?

 

[Jeff7181]

I'm curious... if I were to acquire the new one and dispose of the old one myself, what would a fair price be to have a professional do the electrical and plumbing work? I'm fairly confident I could do it all myself... but if I could have someone else do it relatively cheaply, I'd kinda rather do that.

 

[Eug]

I like my tankless. Has never given me trouble. However, I don't use it much, which might have something to do with that. I set the thermo at 115, which is perfect 'cause I can turn the shower on high heat and don't have to adjust it. Fine for the washing machine, sinks. I'm sure it keeps my gas bills down.

I have a tankless too, but the additional cost of tankless gas water heaters and additional maintenance requires negates any gas usage savings, at least in North America.

Mine also gave me endless trouble until they swapped the motherboard. It turns out the old model had faulty software that would shut off the hot water at the most in-opportune times. Then I'd have to power cycle it. Really, really irritating. They couldn't do a firmware update either. To update the controller it meant swapping out the motherboard.

There's no gas pilot light, it uses electricity to fire up the gas burner. So, if you have a power outage, you don't have hot water until power is restored.

I have mine on a consumer (but high VA) sine wave battery backup, which means I have hot water even in a power outage, at least for a while.

Whenever you use it, it does make a whoooshing noise, which I believe is a self-maintenance procedure to cool itself. That turns off in ~45 seconds, I'd guess. It's not terribly loud, but it could be a factor in deciding where to mount the unit, along with proximity issues.

Yeah, I find it loud. A lot of the noise can be transmission noise through the wall/pipes too. It was worse before but I had them install a slab of rubber underneath and it helped noticeably. In retrospect, I would have gotten rubber bumpers for all the contact points. Given the potential noise reduction, I'm surprised there aren't bumpers commonly available aftermarket for this purpose.

BTW, to reduce the delay and to eliminate the cold water sandwich issue, I had them install a small 6 gallon electric tank after the hot water output of the tankless. So, hot water from the setup is instantaneous if you're close to the setup that is, and I don't get the hot water - cold water - hot water issue that one can get if you take a shower shortly after someone else does. Hot water in pipes --> take a shower and it's warm, but the initial water in the tankless unit is cold so then you get cold for a few seconds before it gets hot again once the tankless fires up. Having the small tank eliminates this issue, because that burst of cold water gets mixed in with the 6 gallons of hot water in the tank. Some "tankless" units now actually include a 2-gallon tank built in for these reasons.

However, I'm curious how much electricity this uses. I can't easily measure this since it's wired directly into the breaker panel. My guess is just a few bux per month since most of the water going into the 6 gallon tank is already hot, so what I'm really paying for is keeping it hot during the day.

 

[solsa]

I live alone and I've got a pretty old gas tankless at home and have had no issues with it. It hardly heats a single faucet of water but I don’t need any more than that. It does make some noise but when it does, I'm either showering or dish washing so I am hardly bothered by the small explosion that starts the gas heater unit. Electric water heaters don't make a lot of noise because there is no flame burning or anything like that in gas heater. A tankless would serve you well considering you are single and won't be opening a lot of water outlets at the same time. As for the installation costing several $1000's it's impossible to cost more than a few hundred. The only issue would be the fact that an electric on-demand water heater will be sucking a lot of juice so you need a good flow of electric to your flat. You've got to check the beakers and product specs etc. to make sure things will work out.
Ecosmart looks like a great choice, rated as best electric tankless water heater and with a little above the average price. The size you need depends on where you live as well as how much water you will be using. If you are in the north, buy big.
Other considerations about electric tankless… Because it takes so much electric current, lights can flicker. I am not sure if this could have affect on the entire building. Besides that, you must not keep closing and opening a faucet in quick intervals, like when you shave. It’s just no going to work with tankless.

 

[Exterous]

And 3 breakers; depending on brand, could be about $12-15 each.

My only word of caution here is that I know Michigan was at one time considering rules requiring Arc Fault interrupters (AFCI) for all new installed breakers. Unfortunately I no longer have access to the code books and my google foo has failed to yield a clear answer I would trust to pass an inspection. It appears as though this might not count as many states adopted rules only for outlets and not direct wires or only require for bedrooms but I know MI has its own subset of electrical codes in certain areas so it might be worth a call to your local township\city\etc office to double check.

Those breakers tend to run $30-40

 

[Meghan54]

As long as you realize that you'll never save enough energy to justify the high purchase price, get one. But also remember that if there's a power outage, no hot water at all. A storage tank water heater will provide some hot water for a few days unless the area's water tank is empty/compromised.

But an interesting take on the cost benefit of a gas tankless (I just cannot see any benefit of an electric tankless.....):

A 2010 research study conducted in Minnesota showed the break even point for converting to a tankless water heater vs. installing a new storage tank (conventional) water heater was on average over 20 years.

A 37% savings of water heating energy per household was found for replacing a typical natural draft storage water heater for a tankless one. However, this savings was not enough to offset the high incremental cost resulting in paybacks from 20 to 40 years.

From Executive Summary, http://www.mncee.org/getattachment/7b8982e9-4d95-4bc9-8e64-f89033617f37/ (.pdf)



A synopsis of the above study:

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/are-tankless-water-heaters-waste-money


Who the researchers were:

The researchers — Dave Bohac, Ben Schoenbauer, and Martha Hewett of the Center for Energy and Environment in Minneapolis, along with Tom Butcher of Brookhaven National Laboratory and Mary Sue Lobenstein of Lobenstein Consulting — monitored water heaters in ten homes for over a year.

What they concluded:

The study found that tankless water heaters cost more to install, and save less energy, than many energy experts claim. “From interviews with eight local contractors, installed costs for whole-house gas tankless water heaters as a retrofit were estimated from $2,000 to $5,000, with typical price range of $2,500 to $3,400. These costs are considerably higher than estimated by others. … For comparison, these same contractors estimated the installed cost of a conventional standard water heater to range from $900 to $1,300, with an average cost of about $1,100.”


The researchers calculated the simple payback period for the incremental costs of these tankless water heaters. To make the calculation, they assumed that the incremental cost of installing a non-condensing tankless water heater ranged from $1,500 to $2,500. Using these figures, the simple payback period for non-condensing tankless water heaters ranged from 21 to 35 years.


The researchers assumed that the incremental cost of installing a condensing water heater ranged from $2,500 to $3,500. The payback period for condensing tankless heaters (not including the Navien CR-240A, an outlier with dismal performance) ranged from 27 to 38 years.

How the research was conducted....short version:

The ten families enrolled in the study were chosen based on household size. The number of people in these families matched the household size distribution shown in the census data for the Minnesota in 2000: two homes had 1 resident each, three homes had 2 residents, two homes had 3 residents, two homes had 4 residents, and one home had 5 residents.

A total of twenty-four water heaters were installed in the ten homes; each home got at least two water heaters. Eight homes got a tank-type water heater (an A.O. Smith GCV40 40-gallon natural gas water heater with atmospheric venting). In addition, each home got at least one natural gas tankless water heater. Ten tankless water heaters were tested; a variety of models were chosen from among those sold by five manufacturers (Bosch, Noritz, Rheem, Rinnai, and Takagi).


Monitoring equipment for each test set-up included a dedicated gas meter, a dedicated water meter, and temperature sensors that measured the temperature of the incoming water as well as the temperature of the hot water. (The incoming water temperatures varied seasonally by about 30°F to 35°F.)


At each house, researchers adjusted gas and water valves to alternate between the tank-type water heater and the tankless water heater at monthly intervals. Only one water heater was used at a time. The changeover schedule was adjusted at each site so that every tested heater operated over the full seasonal spectrum of incoming water temperatures and outdoor air temperatures. An average of 363 days of useful data were collected from each home.

 

[slag]

OP,

Just replaced a 40 gallon water heater at home. My girlfriend was ready to spend the extra coin on a tankless water heater, so we found a local plumber who was a friend of her father's. He quoted a price of $4,000 to replace the existing gas water heater with an indoor tankless unit...

and a price of $975 to upgrade the existing 40 gallon gas heater with a larger 50 gallon gas unit.

He said, "An honest plumber won't sell you a tankless water heater... unless you have a large family (OP is single and living alone), the minimal cost savings of tankless won't repay your high initial investment before you have to replace it again."

He also said that most people that inquire about tankless tend to be younger females who want to "go green".

We went with the 50 gallon traditional gas unit.

Sounds like a lot of dough to me, but prices vary on location. We have a 70 gallon high efficiency RHEEM (I think). It's apples to oranges though as I bought it scratch and dent locally through ebay and installed it myself. I spent about $400.00 on it and we never run out of hot water.

 

[slag]

I've thought about it but think I'll eventually just get a higher efficiency tank. My current one is like 50% efficient. Idealy I'd love a tank that works similar to a high efficiency furnace where it uses outside air for combustion and uses up so much of the heat that the exhaust is just ABS pipe. Now that is efficient! If you can burn yourself on the pipe that's heat being wasted.

That's what I have. I use 3 or 4 inch pvc for the exhaust.