(necro)What speed do SAMs travel at? Any aircraft that can outrun?

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Gibsons

Lifer
Aug 14, 2001
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Well, umm, you would have to recieve the emission, but that emission will go back to the AWACS (in what, like a second? I was under the impression radar waves, em radiation, travelled at the speed of light through air).

No, it's not a matter of how fast the radar waves travel (though it is the speed of light). It's a matter of signal strength. For an analogy, think of two people in a big open field in pitch black night. One of them turns on a really powerful flashlight to look around... who sees who first?
 

unipidity

Member
Mar 15, 2004
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I agree that we are comparing apples to qumquats, but if its apples and qumqauts that are on the market, thats what you compare. The fact that apple sellers tried to develop the papaya are a qumqaut alternative is neither here nor there. They didnt, and the F-22 goes up against either things easily handled by the F-15 or Su-30mkks belonging to China. Nothing else is realistic. The F-22 is never going to shoot down a Eurofighter, or a Rafale, or a Gripen.


Im pretty sure the Adder has about 20 miles on the AMRAAM. Which, if the two aircraft could both detect each other, would be a huge advantage, and the Su-27's greater top speed would make its kill radius much bigger than the F-22's- sratch one F-22. This is an entirely possible situation as far as I know, since the Su varients can use 3rd party radar tracking from a hugely more powerful, longer wavelength ground radar. Which would be able to track the F-22 with ease, imo, since returns are no longer going to be off small crap like with an airborne fighter radar, but possbly off the biggest structural components... like a wing. RAM can only do so much. The fact that some radar can now track both F-117 and B-2s (as evidenced, partly, by the fact that Kosovan 'stealth' missions required *supposedly* upwards of 20 support aircraft flying interference.

I doubt that anti-radiation misles would work air-to-air, though it has been suggested. With a ground radar, when it lights up, you only have to 'track' it once, and it doesnt go anywhere. As said, a fighter like the F-22 could just turn off its radar if it thinks an ARM is inbound. Which I suppose it might not know, since ARMs are passive, are they not?



The F-22 replaces the F-15. In the long run, after 2020 or whenever the last C/D F-15s retire, its on its own as a 1st day air dominance fighter. If you beleive the F-35 'bashers' that is.

The AWACS can detect at range X, but the F-22 can detect beyond that since the radiation intensity is an inverse square going out, and coming back. Probably, anyway. I assume so. But thats going to be waaaay beyond missle range, even for a ramjet missile.

imo, part of the weakness of the F-22 project is a poor actual weapons system. A meteor-class AMRAAM is no doubt still in development (unless the US buys Meteor, that is), but it is going to preceed the F-22 significantly. The two projects should go in parallel, and should have been linked to Soviet projects- the US is constantly about 5-10 years ahead of the Russians, which makes them 5-10 years behind, in a certain sense.

I would suggest that the Tigershark was not intended to replace the F-16 at all, but rather to be a somewhat LESS capable aircraft than a later-block F-16 intended for export to semi-freindly nations.

Re the F-35 becoming the 'mainstay'- firstly, it IS complimentary, and since about 250 F-22s will end up being produced, it IS the de facto mainstay. It is also perfectly capable of being a stop-gap until UCAVs start turning up- the only technology it is going up against is 4th gen russian stuff. People say things like 'But in a shooting war, the F-22 has double the survivability of an F-35, would you risk the lives of US aviators for money?' To which the asnwer is YES. As long as enough F-35s are produced to be able to vastly outnumber any concivable technologically advanced enemy, air war against the US is untihinkable. And if anyone did try it and inevitably lost, would I trade $70b dollars (though more like 40b these days) for the lives of 20 US aviators? YES. Goddamit.
 

sao123

Lifer
May 27, 2002
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Superhornets do not have the same range or performance offered by F-14s. Like I said, if F-14Ds were not so expensive, there would be no reason for the existence of Superhornets

While the F18E superhornet cannot carry the amount of weight a tomcat F14D can carry... 22000 to 27000 lbs, It out-radiuses(combat radius) the tomcat by 700nm to 500nm.
Original hornet 18000lbs, 400nm.

I do agree in general the tomcat was probably the best multirole aircraft the us has ever had. I'd like to see another revamped version. Better Radar, better engines, more munitions.
 

unipidity

Member
Mar 15, 2004
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More importantly, cheaper to maintain. Something like 70% of a Tomcat lifetime cost was maintenance.

Ive only ever seen heavier mission load ranges, but I recall 380 vs 390 nms.... not exactly huge. A redesigned Tomcat with better engines and more composites would be far superior to a Superhornetin range terms... but much much bigger and more expensive.
 

Farmer

Diamond Member
Dec 23, 2003
3,334
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Well, with a 360 degree coverage, will it more be like putting fifty flashlights in a circle?

The two projects should go in parallel, and should have been linked to Soviet projects- the US is constantly about 5-10 years ahead of the Russians, which makes them 5-10 years behind, in a certain sense.

I was under the inpretion Russia built the Mig object 1.42/44 from the MFI program, which parrallels ATF (and thus the F-22) quiet nicely. But of course, Russia completely lacks funds to follow through, and is waiting ten years for PAK FA, which seems it will be much more of a JSF type aircraft.
 

Gibsons

Lifer
Aug 14, 2001
12,530
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Well, with a 360 degree coverage, will it more be like putting fifty flashlights in a circle?

Sure. Call it a megawatt magnesium furnace even. But as unipidity said

The AWACS can detect at range X, but the F-22 can detect beyond that since the radiation intensity is an inverse square going out, and coming back.

It's the inverse square rule that means a radar detector will likely always have a range advantage over an emitter/detector. One's looking for a reflection, the other is looking for the original signal at half the distance. Note that a stealthy aircraft should have the additional advantage of being a very poor reflector.
 

Farmer

Diamond Member
Dec 23, 2003
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Ah, I see. Though I guess if the F-22 were to achieve 'air superiority,' it would intend to engage.
 

unipidity

Member
Mar 15, 2004
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Yes. Though preferably without using its own radar.

I suppose the MFI is concurrent with the ATF, though I know not the exact dates. But the latest Russian airframes are early 80s vintage roll-out, rather than early 70s, so the 4th generation certainly has a time gap. I guess that after you realise 1.44 is never going to exist, you cant exactly just scrap a good program because you want to develop in parallel. But if Sukhoi are directly employed by China to produce an Su-47 out of the Berkut program, which I think they were going to until the Russian airforce couldnt pay, it will end up being F-22 competitive at a much lower price point (at least in terms of avionics and brute performance) just by virtue of being newer. Modernisation of the F-22 (!!!!) can no doubt overcome this, but making the damn thing even more expensive might not be politically expedient.

If the 1.44 really WAS as stealthy/LO as the F-22, then the Russians must have some kind of bizarro RAM going on there, seeing as it really didnt look as one would expect a stealthy aircraft to look. Not that I really beleive that it was.
 

Looney

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
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Originally posted by: Farmer
Hurricane Andrew:

Well, I knew a staunch Republican would be the first to respond. :) However, from your sig, it doesn't seem like you are much of a Bush supporter.

Don't worry. I'm the last person that would be advising defense budget cuts. However, I do think that, yes, platforms such as the B-2 and F-117 are superbly effective, especially during recent events? But they cost a whole shitload of money, and the F-22 program is by no doubt bloated! This money could be solving supply problems currently being experienced in Iraq, providing all sniper units with necessary equipment, our troops with adequently armored light wheeled transport vehicle. With the money spent on the F-22, I think every unit in the Army could be outfitted like 10 SFG! (OK, maybe I'm exaggerating).

I'm far from a Bush supporter, but you think the supply problem in Iraq now is because of the F-22 program? I highly doubt it. I would say it's because Bush didn't listen to Powell, and went in unprepared to handle occupation, so now they're playing catch-ups.
 

Farmer

Diamond Member
Dec 23, 2003
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unipidity:

According to "Russian military officials" (nothing for sure, just read some articles), all the photos we have of the 1.44 is actually of the 1.42, which is a non-stealth MFI aircraft that actually flew (I think first in 1999?). I have no photos of the 1.44 (which incorporates stealth technology), but there is nothing to stop me from saying that it probably focuses extensively on the use of RAM, as the case is with the Su-47.

That's odd to think that China might continue Su-47, since Russia deemed the swept-forward design too unstable, despite performance gains (as the US did with the X-29?). However, Russia did sign some agreement with India (and Sukhoi) to develop the PAK FA light fighter supposedly due to start production by 2010 (!). I have no idea about the state of the program now.
 

LoneWolf15

Member
Feb 20, 2001
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Originally posted by: nyarrgh
any hope of an upgraded phoenix missile type weapon for any of the new fighters?

Not that I know of. Wasn't the Phoenix capable of between Mach 5 and Mach 6? They made a great weapon for BVR kills, especially with the F-14's low-light TV which had a 200-mile range.
 

dderidex

Platinum Member
Mar 13, 2001
2,732
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Interesting article relevant to this discussion:

"The Raptor as a Bomber" from the Air Force magazine.

Essentially discusses other roles/variants the F/A-22 might fill. The thing to keep in mind is that the more chasis they build, the lower the per-unit cost is.
 

unipidity

Member
Mar 15, 2004
163
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The aerodynamics of Berkut are no doubt endlessly debatable, but what such programs have done is to demonstrated than Su still know how to design an aircraft, and the brains are still there. I doubt the Su-47 will ever see light of day, but if China expresses enough intrest, I have no doubt that the bedrock levels of the Russian military complex are just as for sale as the end product is.

Im not entirely sure how good Pheonix is as an anti-fighter weapon though. I know it was designed to shoot down Bears et al.... slow, not exactly nippy things that certainly cant do 9 g upwards turns to evade.


The B22 concept smacks of a post-fact justification for the entire F-22 program. As it is the F-22 has about 29% of total mass fuel load which is obviously deficient, and the new HUUUUUGGGE wing is supposed to improve this, whilst improving !! the LO nature of the aircraft. Ignoring the fact that the F-22 is made to be primarily LO towards higher freq radars and a B-22 is going to be no more difficult to track than a B-2, a bigger wing is not going to enhance stealth itself. All of the extras that need to be added to make the F-22 even a vaguely acceptable low payload medium range bomber are going to add to cost. Its not as though you can just crank out more F-22s and bring down unit costs. Unit costs of the program as a whole are going to soar during the dev of this concept, and quite frankly, you may as well make a better job of it than adapting an airframe not designed for it. F---> F/A, ill accept as very good cost saving measure, but F----> B just seems stupid.
 

Farmer

Diamond Member
Dec 23, 2003
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dderidex:

Actually, the YF-23 design varient is also being considered for the strike role.
 

unipidity

Member
Mar 15, 2004
163
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Yes, though quite why they would want to use an airframe not really ever developed into a production aircraft over the competitor that did beat it and HAS been developed, I dont know.

I just read that it looks like the US will procure only 180 Raptors.. 330ish million a pop program cost. Yay.
 

Mik3y

Banned
Mar 2, 2004
7,089
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f-22 raptors currently cost about $200 million each. thats a bit much compared to a $20 million f-18, especially since one's already been crashed and destroyed.
 

ramunc

Junior Member
Jan 7, 2005
3
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yes the f/a- 18 super hornet is the premier fighter until....... something will happen, belive me
 

canadageek

Senior member
Dec 28, 2004
619
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you americans and your big toys ;)
in canada we fly seakings and f/16's, plus a couple of f/18s. our navy is a coupla frigates, and we bought 3 diesel subs off britain. somehow our defences are "adequate"
on the note of fighter jets, it was once explained to me by an aircraft maintenance tech that "give anything enough thrust, and it'll fly" he then proceeded to make a screwdriver levitate on compressed air. this, he explained, was like pretty much any jet fighter. apparently, an f/16 flies like a brick, and just as stably. of course, it has an array of computers to make the thing fliable, which is common in most aircraft today.
 

unipidity

Member
Mar 15, 2004
163
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Hmm, a birck sounds reasonably stable to me.... all modern fighters are designed to be unstable such that they can maneuver at 9g+. Only possible due to fly by wire.
 

canadageek

Senior member
Dec 28, 2004
619
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really? i didn't know that...i thought the goal was stable flight, but i guess instability would make more sense as far as dodging stuff goes
 

LoneWolf15

Member
Feb 20, 2001
151
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Originally posted by: canadageek
you americans and your big toys ;)
in canada we fly seakings and f/16's, plus a couple of f/18s. our navy is a coupla frigates, and we bought 3 diesel subs off britain. somehow our defences are "adequate"
on the note of fighter jets, it was once explained to me by an aircraft maintenance tech that "give anything enough thrust, and it'll fly" he then proceeded to make a screwdriver levitate on compressed air. this, he explained, was like pretty much any jet fighter. apparently, an f/16 flies like a brick, and just as stably. of course, it has an array of computers to make the thing fliable, which is common in most aircraft today.

With all due respect to Canada, the subs you bought off Britain seem to be having their share of troubles and mechanical difficulties. As for defense forces (I'm not going to debate right or wrong on this nor turn it into a political issue), Canada's military philosophy differs in some ways from the United States.

I do believe the F-22 isn't worth what we're paying for it and that we could develop planes (or improve existing types) at far less cost.
 

Farmer

Diamond Member
Dec 23, 2003
3,334
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ramunc:

Have you been reading this thread at all? The F-18 E/F was never a 'premier' fighter, its not even a
'pure' fighter aircraft (as opposed to the F-15 or F-16). It might be the Navy's 'premier attack plane,' but the Navy has a far superior fighter/interceptor in the F-14, and the Air Force already has F-16s, F-15s and will soon be recieving F-22s.

unipidity:

Designed to be unstable? No, they are designed to be maneuverable. And because achieveing such maneuverability might cause instability, fly-by-wire is incorporated to retain that stability. I don't think anyone would want to design an unstable aircraft...

canadageek:

In twenty years, I would not be surprised at Canada purchasing F-22s from the US.

I see, so an F-16 is the same as a brick with a P&W turbine? I doubt it. The F-16, yes, is fly-by-wire, but it was made so to be the most maneuverable fighter in the US inventory (I guess until the thrust-vectored F-22). The only reason computers are used as a control intermediate on board aircraft is if 1.) the aircraft is too unstable to be controlled without adjustments made by the comptuter (as the case was with the F-117) or 2.) it increases performance.

As for the F-16 flying like a brick, please direct yourself to www.f-16.net, post a thread named "All F-16s have the same flight characteristics as a brick, and are very stable" and wait for responses.

In essence, it is not about thrust, it is about lift. As far as I know, the purpose of thrust is to: 1.) generate lift by causing air to move above and below the wing at differing speeds, creating upward force countering the weight of the aircraft and 2.) provide a horizontal force to move the aircraft through the air, countering drag.