NECRO started to learn to drive stick today NECRO

[Phanuel]

I learned stick on a car with no tach.

But these days, with all of the commuting I have to do I prefer an automatic because I'm just too lazy to want to deal with shifting between 1st and 2nd for 50 minutes.

Well, that was until I've had to live with my current automatic and now I've decided that my next car will either have a DCT or a manual again, no more liquid torque converters.

 

[Baked]

I thought about getting a stick for the longest time. Always wanted to buy somebody's used car so I can learn to drive it on my free time, but always missed the opportunity. Then as time passes, I noticed a lot of cars, especially high end sports cars are starting to be offered in auto with better mileage over its manual counter part. That's when I realized, who gives a fuck, I'm just gonna pay an extra $1K and drive my car like a go cart the way I like it, without worrying about up and down shifting in shitty city and highway traffic in LA.

 

[Kaido]

Yeah, I need feedback, I can't handle a wet noodle under my foot!

Yeah, that's one of the reasons I went with an automatic instead of stick on my last car (Honda Fit). It was really fun to drive with the stick, but wet noodle just about sums it up...it felt like I was driving a video game, no tactile feedback! Boo, hiss

 

[Kaido]

I learned stick on a car with no tach.

But these days, with all of the commuting I have to do I prefer an automatic because I'm just too lazy to want to deal with shifting between 1st and 2nd for 50 minutes.

Well, that was until I've had to live with my current automatic and now I've decided that my next car will either have a DCT or a manual again, no more liquid torque converters.

Yeah. I love stick but sometimes my daily commute is 2 hours, sitting in traffic, which is really no fun in a stick. And I do that typically 6 days a week, so I finally gave in a few cars ago and have been with automatic ever since.

Now if I could just get that Google self-driving car package...

 

[Kaido]

I thought about getting a stick for the longest time. Always wanted to buy somebody's used car so I can learn to drive it on my free time, but always missed the opportunity. Then as time passes, I noticed a lot of cars, especially high end sports cars are starting to be offered in auto with better mileage over its manual counter part. That's when I realized, who gives a fuck, I'm just gonna pay an extra $1K and drive my car like a go cart the way I like it, without worrying about up and down shifting in shitty city and highway traffic in LA.

Yeah, just look at the new Porsches...automatic only (which is INSANE imo):

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2013/04/2014-porsche-911-turbo-to-be-automatic-only.html

 

[ViviTheMage]

Yeah, that's one of the reasons I went with an automatic instead of stick on my last car (Honda Fit). It was really fun to drive with the stick, but wet noodle just about sums it up...it felt like I was driving a video game, no tactile feedback! Boo, hiss

Yeah, I have noticed underpowered cars are like that, haha.... all the BMW/VW/Porsche/etc I have driven did not have that issue.

my xterra also has a good amount of feedback too.

Yeah, just look at the new Porsches...automatic only (which is INSANE imo):

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2013/04/2014-porsche-911-turbo-to-be-automatic-only.html

:*(

 

[vshah]

Congrats!
Engine braking is another good trick to learn - it's where you down-shift and then let the clutch come up slowly to help your car slow down, instead of just using the brake. It's useful because it gives you more control over slowing down, which is great in traffic, and also if you need to make an emergency stop, you can use your regular foot brake as well as engine braking and stop a lot sooner. So practice doing both engine braking, and engine braking with the foot pedal brake for emergency stopping. It's saved me more than once! You don't want to use it to replace normal braking, but it's a handy trick to have up your sleeve.

agree with everything in your post except this. Engine braking will in no way help you stop sooner, especially given the time it would take to downshift vs just slamming on the brake pedal.

engine braking can be useful so you don't have to ride the brakes on a long downhill slope though.

 

[kitatech]

Another difficulty for newbies is drive by wire acceleration that has less feel than the good ol' days of cable...

 

[JCH13]

Engine braking is another good trick to learn - it's where you down-shift and then let the clutch come up slowly to help your car slow down, instead of just using the brake. It's useful because it gives you more control over slowing down, which is great in traffic, and also if you need to make an emergency stop, you can use your regular foot brake as well as engine braking and stop a lot sooner. So practice doing both engine braking, and engine braking with the foot pedal brake for emergency stopping. It's saved me more than once! You don't want to use it to replace normal braking, but it's a handy trick to have up your sleeve.

agree with everything in your post except this. Engine braking will in no way help you stop sooner, especially given the time it would take to downshift vs just slamming on the brake pedal.

engine braking can be useful so you don't have to ride the brakes on a long downhill slope though.

What vshah said. Unless your braking system is in disrepair the brakes will be able to completely saturate your car's braking capability without using the engine at all. You also have no ability to modulate the force engine braking supplies, it's not very controlled. A lot of people *think* it's controlled because you can't lock up the wheels... well... you can certainly get a car sliding with an aggressive downshift. Ask me how I know...

Engine braking is NOT more controlled than a brake pedal.

Engine braking will NOT help a car stop sooner.

So says fizzicks.

 

[Vic Vega]

I bought my first car for $650, it was a stick and I had never driven one before.

That was quite a long time ago.

 

[Kaido]

Yeah, I have noticed underpowered cars are like that, haha.... all the BMW/VW/Porsche/etc I have driven did not have that issue.

my xterra also has a good amount of feedback too.

I dunno, my parents have a basic '99 Escort coupe which is on the wussy side, but it has plenty of feedback...it just doesn't have all the fancy padding & whatnot that newer cars do, so you feel the engine a lot more.

 

[CraigRT]

Some cars don't have it. When I was test driving a stick-shift Kia Soul, the clutch system was entirely hydraulic and there was zero feedback in the clutch pedal, so I had no idea where any shift points were. It was really weird. My old '94 Saturn sedan was extremely mechanical and you could feel both when the clutch "caught" as you released it up and where the sweet spot was for holding it for a split-second during shifting.

So it depends on the car, and also as you get more experience. On the older cars, it was much easier to listen to the engine and the feel of the car as it vibrated and hummed; new cars are so much smoother & quieter than it can be hard to tell, so you have to base it more on the speed you're going or watch the tach if you're new at it.

I am a big fan of the S-series clutch feel and shifter feel. (On first gens) After 1999 the clutch feel is garbage.

They are great cars to teach on..

 

[xSkyDrAx]

This post is reassuring, might I ask how would you say how good you were after the 3 hours? The dealer I'm getting mine from it'll either be 20'ish miles of heavy freeway traffic, doesn't matter when really because of major construction. Or all surface streets, so I don't suspect I'll have a lot of leeway for a smooth drive.

Well I had about 3 sessions of about an hour each. It was just in a parking lot getting down the basics, i.e first/reverse and 1->2. That was really about it. The first session I had I was like you, I stalled a shit ton of times. I think the thing that unnerved me the most was the rolling back. That caused me to panic which basically caused me to rush the clutch leading me to stall. The other thing was pedal response in a manual vs automatic is a bit different. First was a lot more sensitive vs my auto corolla so trying to fine tune my right foot while learning to control my left foot also caused problems.

Second and third times I didn't have as much of an issue finding the engagements points. By the time I got to the dealership it had been about a week or so since I had my last session. At that point I have never driven a manual car in the streets but there wasn't really going to be any way to practice that with out your own car (legally) at least.

When I got there they tossed me the keys for a test drive. I stalled the shit out of that too which doesn't give you the best confidence boost about driving home. Main problem was I was not use to the spacing of the gears so I ended up in 3rd instead of first a lot.

Salesperson was pretty cool about it and didn't freak out too much. My gf was freaking out more since she was along for the ride and she has never seen me drive stick before lol

After the whole paper work process we went to grab lunch and so I had a few hours total to freak myself out/calm my nerves before getting onto the freeway for the way home. I think I stalled about 3 times the whole way mainly at the stops before and after the freeway.

Luckily there was no traffic on the way back so that was good. If you can, try to schedule your purchase time/date when there is less traffic.

Ultimately my frame of thought (with about 3 hours of practice) was that if I stall I KNOW that I can get it moving again, it might not be fast and it might piss some people off but it's not like I would be stranded. Biggest fear was hoping I don't fuck up and hit something.

At any rate, good luck with your purchase, I know I don't regret mine for a second, even when I do get stuck in traffic. I just consider it more low speed practice.

 

[jaqie]

From someone who has driven her vehicles well over 100k miles (prolly more like 200k) in a manual, and learned to drive in a manual as well as studying the working mechanics of the whole deal:

Here's my advice on learning how to drive stickshift...

The clutch has a range of travel, and then inside that range is a range of engagement, where it goes from applying a little of the torque and movement of the engine to the wheels to full. This is the area you must learn for each and every vehicle you drive, and the area where most mess up the worst. The rest of the clutch travel is just blank space, extra for extra wear and adjustment, this engagement zone is the only spot that matters. Learn this engagement zone, memorize how far in it is at start and end, and then you will learn to drive very smoothly.

If the engagement zone is OK (not worn out clutch) and the engine is decently strong-idle (little 2 litres and smaller are definitely not) you can get the vehicle to full engagement from zero on idle. If not, you have to begin to give some throttle at the beginning of the engagement zone, to supply more possible power while engaging.

When taking off from still, if you feel the engine beginning to struggle, either give more gas or push the clutch in ever so slightly to give the engine the power and time to recover. You don't want the engine to sputter and struggle when getting going, the point at least for learning is to make it seem like you are driving an automatic - the automatic does this for you, engaging just enough to give a smooth start without letting too much of the engage zone on too fast.

Having said that, nearly 100% of the wear on the clutch is when it is somewhere in the engagement zone and not in the 'white space' on either end of it so once you do learn the first step above, where the engagement zone is and how to take off with the car like an automatic does, you then learn how to do so with as little time in the engagement zone as you can while keeping a smooth start without engine sputter or much loss of rpm from idle. The only time you should ever have to stay in the engagement zone for any amount of time is when taking off from a standing start. When moving, you should never have to use the clutch as more than an on off switch. This is far easier to learn than taking off.

There are more than one style of manual transmission clutch use, and my means is far from the only valid one, but it most definitely is a good one. My first vehicle was a 1985 S10 4x4 with 2.5 litre iron duke, and a 4 speed manual, with auto locking rear diff. I got it at about 130k miles, and when I got rid of it it had 250k+ on the tick. It still had the original clutch, and I had used it to do farm work and tough towing and nature work, including pulling a band saw mill up 45 degree incline gravel backroads for thousands of miles total... so I know my method works and saves the clutch a *LOT* of wear. My own style, and personal belief in how to minimize clutch wear, is to make the engine and systems in the vehicle behave and perform as close to automatic as possible with the exception of being fully out of gear when idling and when sitting still. People assumed automatic every single time they knew me and were amazed without fail to see the manual stick in the truck the first time they would see it, even if they knew me for months.

 

[Kaido]

What vshah said. Unless your braking system is in disrepair the brakes will be able to completely saturate your car's braking capability without using the engine at all. You also have no ability to modulate the force engine braking supplies, it's not very controlled. A lot of people *think* it's controlled because you can't lock up the wheels... well... you can certainly get a car sliding with an aggressive downshift. Ask me how I know...

Engine braking is NOT more controlled than a brake pedal.

Engine braking will NOT help a car stop sooner.

So says fizzicks.

Hmm, I should clarify. By control I mean, you can keep your feet on the clutch & gas rather than the brake pedal in traffic. So with the ebb & flow in traffic, I can just adjust the clutch to slow it down faster than releasing the gas pedal, but without having to switch over to the brake. Does that make sense? So you're not constantly tapping your brakes, you're just being variable on the engine braking via clutch adjustment.

Secondly, maybe my old stick-shift car was crappy :whiste: When I'd pop the clutch up & slam on the brakes, it'd make it stop a lot sooner than just the brake. Pretty much 100% of my stick-shift experience is in >2000 cars, so there's a possibility that the brake systems were not up to par. All I know is that when I'd do both engine braking & the foot brake, it'd stop a lot shorter. Or was it just perception because it'd cause the car to buck like it was stopping harder? I've had to use it a couple times in traffic when there were sudden stops, like if someone changed lanes and then slammed on their brakes, and it'd throw me at the steering wheel because it'd stop so hard/quick.

 

[tweakmonkey]

I learned in a very effective way of learning to use the pedals skillfully and gently. This may be helpful for you to practice.

1) Go into a very quiet street and go from a dead stop to an idle roll WITHOUT touching the gas. Use the clutch only. This practice in "feathering" the clutch. Just letting it out enough to avoid stalling, will make you way better with it and will make your clutch plates last twice as long as the person who just hammers on the gas pedal to get it into 1st gear.

This is 100% spot on and works easily on just about every car with some power. It prolongs the life of the clutch and will never stall once you have this skill developed.

If you learn this technique you can drive even the most expensive / difficult cars with crazy lightweight discs (sports cars) and even multi disc clutches (super cars like Carrera GT and NSX) and still get away without stalling or slipping. I drive these types of cars every day and people wonder how I never stall or slip their "impossible clutch to not stall".

The only cars this might not work on is unsprung 4-puck drag racing clutches etc.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Is that why they barely have them on the dealer lots anymore? I learned how to drive stick on my first car. Haven't owned one since. I also don't like scrubbing my clothes on rocks in the river. We have machines for that.

My first car was a stick. A few years later when I moved to Los Angeles I bought another stick, had that car for 6 years and traded it for another stick which I had for another 5 years.

I'd love to have another manual transmission car.

 

[JulesMaximus]

I knew going into it that it was going to be rough. But shit I stalled like 10 times out of the first 12 times trying to take off. After 15-20 minutes I was considerly better stall wise, but I was sort of lurching and still stalling a decent amount. I believe when I learned to drive originally in my Taurus after 20 minutes all I was fucking up on was over breaking and coming to a sudden rough stop. Probably 30 minutes driving felt like second nature. I found it odd how that initial take off's are giving me so much shit, but shifting after that is almost too easy. I think out of the whole 20 minutes I tried, I got off once where it felt smooth and natural.

I'm planning on buying a stick in a week or so, apparently I need a good deal more practice, at least I didn't grind the gears. Reverse seems surprisingly easy, either that or the 1 time I attempted it I just got stupidly lucky.

Make sure the vehicle is completely stopped before you try to put it in reverse. Reverse typically isn't synchronised so if you are rolling at all it will crunch.

Stop and go driving and hill starts are the things you will have the most trouble with at first.

Practice practice practice. Oh, and don't ride the clutch (rest your foot on the clutch pedal while it is depressed).

 

[QueBert]

Make sure the vehicle is completely stopped before you try to put it in reverse. Reverse typically isn't synchronised so if you are rolling at all it will crunch.

Stop and go driving and hill starts are the things you will have the most trouble with at first.

Practice practice practice. Oh, and don't ride the clutch (rest your foot on the clutch pedal while it is depressed).

With a fun new sports car, I guess I can force myself to do that

 

[Murloc]

Hmm, I should clarify. By control I mean, you can keep your feet on the clutch & gas rather than the brake pedal in traffic. So with the ebb & flow in traffic, I can just adjust the clutch to slow it down faster than releasing the gas pedal, but without having to switch over to the brake. Does that make sense? So you're not constantly tapping your brakes, you're just being variable on the engine braking via clutch adjustment.

I'm not sure I understand this.
In heavy traffic, I just leave it in second gear and release the gas to slow down and then press it again to speed up or to avoid engine stalling (I leave appropriate space in front of me to avoid having to stop when there are no red lights), and if necessary I stop completely by pressing the clutch completely once the RPM get low, if there isn't enough space I use the brake, then insert the first gear when I'm still and go again.
I don't see how by playing with the clutch you can do more engine braking than by leaving the thing fully engaged. Also wouldn't you cause more wear on the clutch?

 

[vshah]

Hmm, I should clarify. By control I mean, you can keep your feet on the clutch & gas rather than the brake pedal in traffic. So with the ebb & flow in traffic, I can just adjust the clutch to slow it down faster than releasing the gas pedal, but without having to switch over to the brake. Does that make sense? So you're not constantly tapping your brakes, you're just being variable on the engine braking via clutch adjustment.

Secondly, maybe my old stick-shift car was crappy :whiste: When I'd pop the clutch up & slam on the brakes, it'd make it stop a lot sooner than just the brake. Pretty much 100% of my stick-shift experience is in >2000 cars, so there's a possibility that the brake systems were not up to par. All I know is that when I'd do both engine braking & the foot brake, it'd stop a lot shorter. Or was it just perception because it'd cause the car to buck like it was stopping harder? I've had to use it a couple times in traffic when there were sudden stops, like if someone changed lanes and then slammed on their brakes, and it'd throw me at the steering wheel because it'd stop so hard/quick.

modulating the clutch to control the amount of engine braking will probably wear your clutch out faster, and the amount of control you get in that fashion would be so limited vs. using the brakes (basically what jch13 was saying). now, often times full-clutch-engagement engine braking in whatever gear you're in is plenty to slow you down in the ebb & flow of traffic, but I certainly wouldn't attempt to modulate that using the clutch.

regarding your 2nd point about engine braking stopping the car faster, i'm inclined to believe that it was just perception, as a hasty downshift will indeed make the car jerk quite a bit. that jerk is also what might cause you to break traction, which can be dangerous if you were, for example, trying to steer around an obstacle at the same time.

best/fastest/safest braking is achieved by applying strong steady pressure on the brake pedal and letting ABS do it's thing. on any car I've driven since the 90s, the stock brakes are plenty to overcome tire traction and trigger ABS.

 

[JCH13]

vshah covered every point I was about to write!

I will add that if you're slipping the clutch to modulate braking force, you're heating it up. Clutch assemblies aren't designed to dissipate heat the way brake assemblies are. You could very well wind up overheating your clutch, making it basically useless.

I will modulate throttle to keep pace with traffic, generally whatever gear I'm cruising in provides enough engine braking to match traffic flow. Near where I live anyway.

 

[nitrous9200]

I posted a thread like this last year and just bought a car to work on & learn to drive manual. Figuring out how to get moving and shift is not too hard, and as long as you're careful with the clutch (don't let it out too fast), you won't stall that often. Smoothing out your launches and shifts takes much longer, and that was the most irritating part for me.

Two things that helped me were 1) don't worry too much about wearing out the clutch. As long as you're not constantly riding the clutch and doing 4000rpm launches, it'll be fine. 2) Don't over think things, and just try to do it naturally. It might sound dumb but it definitely helped me when I stopped focusing all of my brain power on what I was doing.

 

[Murloc]

yeah with modern cars the way to do an emergency braking is to smash down both clutch and brake and let the ABS do its magic.
Having the clutch engaged or disengaged doesn't change much as far as the braking goes.

Nitrous is spot on, at some point you just have to let the anxiety go because focusing too much becomes counterproductive.

 

[iamwiz82]

I bought a brand new stick shift car without knowing how to drive it. Had a few training laps and then had to drive it home in rush hour traffic. That was a quick teacher.