Nebraska gets a free pass for voting for health care

[shadow9d9]

So your claim is that [68% of D party] = 60% of people support it? Buahahahaaa!! Who said you leftists don't have a sense of humor!!!

So 68% of 60% is a mojority eh? Here in the real world that translates to about 41% (if you want to claim that Ds = 60% and Rs=40 which is absurd itself)
Keep deluding yourself if you wish.

That isn't what I said, but ok.

 

[shadow9d9]

So what was this about then?



Lol :awe:

Huh? What confused you?

 

[sciwizam]

Fair enough, *that's* a logic issue. I thought you were referring to your argument with his poll numbers.

As for the logic issue, you may both have a point. You're right literally. But if he was using a shorthand about our country's majority-rule system, he had a certain point too.

Take his point more figuratively - 'the vast majority of the members of the party that control the presidency and the Congress are for this, that means the people are for it' - he has a point, too.

If this were a majority issue - filibuster aside - the 49% often get screwed and count zero.

If the Dems have the presidency and Congress, they have a majority to do what they want, and fif they listen to 68% of their party more than they listen to Republicans, it passes, and it's 'the will of the people' we say.

He doesn't have a point and neither do you. Did you feel the same way regarding "the will of the people" about Iraq?

 

[sciwizam]

Huh? What confused you?

You are the one saying earlier "60% support it", then in later posts "You are right, the american people do NOT like compromise." "So, yes.. they won't love the current bill."

Make you your mind

 

[CADsortaGUY]

You are the one saying earlier "60% support it", then in later posts "You are right, the american people do NOT like compromise." "So, yes.. they won't love the current bill."

Make you your mind

He's so twisted up in his little "logic" that he can't see straight. Clearly he's just a hack who wants his side to win because they have the power. I want the American people to "win" and "win" within the confines of the Constitution.

 

[Patranus]

Everyone should call their Senators office and ask what federal handout will be going to your state in exchange for the Senators vote.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Vote buying within your own party to meet an artificial deadline.
Why not make it fair for all Americans, instead of a select few?

That is rushed.

The naivete is remarkable. Why, in politics, EVERYONE always gets EXACTLY the same deal. And if they don't, the only possible reason is that it was rushed.

No, politics covers a lot of situations and policies.

Say you have $1 billion you can afford to use to 'sweeten the deal' to get a bill passed. If you want to argue about THAT, it's a waste of time.

Say you have 55 Senators who are willing to vote for the bill, and 5 who aren't crazy about it, but feel that they could justify it to their constituents if it had more benefit for their state.

Should you equally distribute the $1 billion across 60 Senators and not pass the bill? Or give more to the 5?

But, since you just arrived in our country and are seeing its system for the first time, doesn't that just make every Senator hold out for the goodies?

No, it's more complicated than that. Next bill, those 5 Senators might be crazy about the bill and need your vote, and you get the bonus.

The Senators have a certain amount they can bargain with - they pick and choose where to get the most for their state (or more likely, their donors). Some don't want to use that up on a healthcare bill they're for.

I thought the purpose of Health Care REFORM was to reduce the costs and/or ensure that everyone had access.

This vote buying is shifting the costs even more.

Why should Nebraska not have to pay their increased FAIR share.
What makes a person from Omaha so much special than someone from Rapid City.

Explain why the person just across their state line should have to pay more for Federal benefits to support someone from California.

This Health Care Shaft package was supposed to help everyone get access to health care. Everyone understood (via winks) that costs would not go down (no matter what the Dems leadership/sponsors stated). Costs will go up - just not against evenly/fairly.

Democratic mantra - fairness for everyone, but some are more fair than others.

Note that Congress is attempting to exempt itself (again) from the rules that apply to the general population. And who is running Congress.

The Republicans may be considered obstructionists - but the Democrats did not want to hear any debate on the bill - Why - what are they afraid of?

 

[NaughtyGeek]

Try again.

I gave 2009 polls.

Reading helps. Do they teach it in hicksville?

And there isn't even a "left" in this country, let alone a "far left." There is the middle and there is bible country america. We are a joke to the rest of the world socially.


I'll repeat it again for people without reading skills.

Enjoy snickering while reading the links already provided...

Link
July
2009 Time Magazine Would you favor or oppose a program that creates a national single-payer plan similar to Medicare for all, in which the government would provide healthcare insurance to all Americans?
Favor 49%, Oppose 46%, NA/DK 5%

Link

Feb.
2009
Grove Insight Opinion Research "When given a choice of the current system or one "like Medicare that is run by the government and financed by taxpayers," voters overwhelmingly chose the latter. A solid majority (59%) say they would prefer a national health insurance program that covers everyone, over the current system of private insurance offered to most through their emloyer."
Link

Feb.
2009
New York Times/CBS News Poll Americans are more likely today to embrace the idea of the government providing health insurance than they were 30 years ago. 59% say the government should provide national health insurance, including 49% who say such insurance should cover all medical problems.

Finding the right post to quote is a bit of a mess, but I suppose this will do fine. Unless I've misunderstood, you're trying to convince us that this bill should pass because the majority wants it based on the polls you've provided. Now, I do not see ONE poll related to the bill being voted on in any of it's many iterations. All your datum are in support of a single payer system which this bill is anything but. Actually, isn't that one of the biggest problems the "hick" democrats had with the bill? Maybe I'm misunderstanding your argument but if not, your proof is lacking at best. Please note, the many poll results listed below deal with the bill we're getting, not what "the people" by your argument want.

As has been stated by others, there is no need to vote on this at 1:00 AM and there is no reason not to publish it 72 hours prior to voting on it. If it's for the betterment of our country, it can certainly withstand 72 hours of scrutiny.

And, CycloWizard, I don't agree that the industry will go under based on this legislation. I'm quite certain they've bought the proper ammendments to this trash heap of a bill to ensure their profits for many years to come. You better believe if they were being faced with extinction, there would never be enough support to pass the bill. Most of our senators are bought and paid for in case you've forgotten ;-)

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/obama_and_democrats_health_care_plan-1130.html

 

[woolfe9999]

How is what I said a conspiracy? Can you explain how any insurance company will be able to break even, let alone turn a profit, under the conditions of this bill?

Out of curiosity, why do you suppose the stock prices of these insurance companies are now at historic highs?

 

[Craig234]

Out of curiosity, why do you suppose the stock prices of these insurance companies are now at historic highs?

The Socratic method only works with people who can be rational. You need to spell it out for some.

Theyre at highs because the industry has successfully moved into a win-win situation.

If healthcare reform doesn't pass, they're free of the threat of it more than they have been in a long time; and they've turned the bill into a giveaway to them with 30 million new customers if it passes.

 

[woolfe9999]

The Socratic method only works with people who can be rational. You need to spell it out for some.

Theyre at highs because the industry has successfully moved into a win-win situation.

If healthcare reform doesn't pass, they're free of the threat of it more than they have been in a long time; and they've turned the bill into a giveaway to them with 30 million new customers if it passes.

Well yes, I think it's obvious. If Cyclowizard is correct, then everyone who is now investing in these companies, and it is a lot of investment particularly over the past several weeks since the public option was dropped out of the bill, is a complete fool. That would mean that Cyclowizard knows more than the industry or its investors. Personally, I am going to bet on the market's view rather than that of the random internet poster, but hey, that's just me.

- wolf

 

[bfdd]

Yay we here in California get to pay for more of the Feds handouts to the rest of the country!

 

[Jhhnn]

So, uhh, werepossum, you're saying Grayson's accusations aren't true? That the woman lives in his district? That her committee is, in truth, non-partisan as claimed?

Or what?

If she claims he's her congressman but he's not, that's fraud.

If she claims her committee is non-partisan but it's just a Republican front, that's fraud as well.

Or did the bush Admin so inure Republicans to home-team fraud that they think it's necessary to win?

Actually, that last part might just be true...

 

[shadow9d9]

You are the one saying earlier "60% support it", then in later posts "You are right, the american people do NOT like compromise." "So, yes.. they won't love the current bill."

Make you your mind

Earlier I said 68% support single payer.

In a separate poll:

"Conducted by Research 2000 for the Progressive Change Campaign Committee (PCCC) and Democracy for America (DFA), the survey finds only 33 percent of likely voters favor a health care bill that does not include a public health insurance option and does not expand Medicare, but does require all Americans to get health insurance. Slightly more Democrats -- 37 percent -- favor the idea, while only 30 percent of Republicans and 31 percent of independents do.

Meanwhile, if the public option and Medicare buy-in are added, 58 percent of people support the idea. The number of Republican supporters drops to 22 percent, but independent support rises to 57 percent and Democratic support to a whopping 88 percent."


These are 2 separate issues. One is about single payer. One is about support for the current bill.

 

[shadow9d9]

He's so twisted up in his little "logic" that he can't see straight. Clearly he's just a hack who wants his side to win because they have the power. I want the American people to "win" and "win" within the confines of the Constitution.

My "side" doesn't exist in this country. I am liberal and there is only a moderate party and lunatic party here.

 

[shadow9d9]

Finding the right post to quote is a bit of a mess, but I suppose this will do fine. Unless I've misunderstood, you're trying to convince us that this bill should pass because the majority wants it based on the polls you've provided. Now, I do not see ONE poll related to the bill being voted on in any of it's many iterations. All your datum are in support of a single payer system which this bill is anything but. Actually, isn't that one of the biggest problems the "hick" democrats had with the bill? Maybe I'm misunderstanding your argument but if not, your proof is lacking at best. Please note, the many poll results listed below deal with the bill we're getting, not what "the people" by your argument want.
...

Not quite. A majority want reform and want government insurance. With the republicans cutting themselves out of the process and the democrats being forced to compromise with an independent republican and hick state republicans(among them those that filibustered against civil rights in the 60s), the current bill is weak. So, while the want reform, they are not completely happy with this bill.

This is what the polls reflect.

The polls have not asked, "even though the most important parts have bee ncompromised, is passing this bill still better than nothing."

 

[Craig234]

My "side" doesn't exist in this country. I am liberal and there is only a moderate party and lunatic party here.

My position, with which you may or may not agree: there are two main factions in the Democratic party, the corporatist faction (DLC), and the progressive faction. I support the latter, which is unfortunately minority.

 

[umbrella39]

Everyone should call their Senators office on Monday and ask them what handouts they are getting in exchange for their votes.

No shit. Especially since this kind of shit never happens. It's unprecedented. /rollseyes

Wonders if you will call those who voted NO and ask them what handouts THEY are getting in exchange for their votes, too?

Who's better there Zed? The ones trying to secure money for their State or the ones trying to secure money for self?

It's a toss up.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

No shit. Especially since this kind of shit never happens. It's unprecedented. /rollseyes

Wonders if you will call those who voted NO and ask them what handouts THEY are getting in exchange for their votes, too?

Who's better there Zed? The ones trying to secure money for their State or the ones trying to secure money for self?

It's a toss up.

It's not even close if they support the Constitution.

 

[CycloWizard]

The Socratic method only works with people who can be rational. You need to spell it out for some.

Theyre at highs because the industry has successfully moved into a win-win situation.

If healthcare reform doesn't pass, they're free of the threat of it more than they have been in a long time; and they've turned the bill into a giveaway to them with 30 million new customers if it passes.

I thought you were going to embarrass me? Get it over with. I've already demonstrated that you were wrong on several key points of the bill, so please show me where I'm wrong or quit with the childish attacks. Unless, of course, that's all you've got.

 

[shadow9d9]

I thought you were going to embarrass me? Get it over with. I've already demonstrated that you were wrong on several key points of the bill, so please show me where I'm wrong or quit with the childish attacks. Unless, of course, that's all you've got.

Just as soon as you PROVE with EVIDENCE that the poor insurance companies cannot break even with the legislation?

 

[CycloWizard]

Well yes, I think it's obvious. If Cyclowizard is correct, then everyone who is now investing in these companies, and it is a lot of investment particularly over the past several weeks since the public option was dropped out of the bill, is a complete fool. That would mean that Cyclowizard knows more than the industry or its investors. Personally, I am going to bet on the market's view rather than that of the random internet poster, but hey, that's just me.

- wolf

Time will tell, I suppose.

 

[CycloWizard]

Just as soon as you PROVE with EVIDENCE that the poor insurance companies cannot break even with the legislation?

No one was talking to you. Go back to your hole until you can figure out how argument works.

 

[EagleKeeper]

I thought you were going to embarrass me? Get it over with. I've already demonstrated that you were wrong on several key points of the bill, so please show me where I'm wrong or quit with the childish attacks. Unless, of course, that's all you've got.

Just as soon as you PROVE with EVIDENCE that the poor insurance companies cannot break even with the legislation?

I thought the original purpose of Health Care Reform was to provide lower cost health care to all Americans.

Why the talk/concern of the insurance companies. The government feels that they do the job better and cheaper.

Or is the government again blowing smoke?

 

[Ausm]

You need to read. So I will post it again.

"The current bill has been watered down by republican obstructionism, an independent republican, and "democrats" that voted against civil rights in the 60s.

You are right, the american people do NOT like compromise."

So, yes.. they won't love the current bill. Unless you have some evidence that that poll represents your side rather than the fact that people are unhappy with the ridiculous compromises made, the point stands.

You are wasting your breath on this obvious point.