NC proposed bill: Ban any 'free' EV charging stations in the state

[NWRMidnight]

But it's not just math, at least not simple math, because they'd need to take into account extra the custom bought in by having the charging points. And then the effect that extra custom has on their overall profit-to-cost ratio.

Just as in the case of parking spaces (which is my pet peeve - I resent paying for motorists' free parking in the form of increases in what I pay for my shopping), they'd have to trade off the cost of using what could be precious retail space (for more stock) for parking spaces, against the increases in efficiency due to attracting a higher volume of customers. It's not a simple calculation in either case.

I am more than aware of all the constantly changing data/figures required to supply such cost to the customer. Which is why it's not something that can be given by the minute and would have to be calculated either weekly or monthly. The math isn't hard, it's gathering all the needed data/figures to make it accurate is what is hard. Once you have all those numbers, it's all simple math. But in reality, the final calculation is going to be figured using some numbers that are based off averages and estimations, because some of the required tracking such as how long each person is actually at the establishment is impossible to accurately track.

Basically, it would be an inaccurate shit show no matter what.

 

[DaaQ]

I see you have never managed a restaurant. It's not something that can be calculated by the minute because it's all influenced by to many changing factors. Lets list a few: number of total guests per minute, number of people on each check. How long every guest was there from start to finish. Electricity costs that change based on usuage, in some states it's also influenced by time of day... guests are also only counted once the order is put in, so what about waiting lists, etc... Again, it would be impossible to give an accurate cost on a customers check by the minute. Any figure given no matter the frequency of the calculation, will only be an estimate, as some of the needed data required can only be based off estimations and averages.

Getting the readings via wifi or mobile connection is not the problem.

I think you missed my point, I have not read whatever ban they are trying to implement.

A restaurant offering free charging to EV, I don't see a problem with that. It "sounds like" to me the state wants, the revenue for the "free charging" hence the ban, OR it's flat out protecting FF donor's interests trying to push the EV conversion down.

IDK if the legislation is trying to impose the proprietor to cover the expense, or if the state wants to ban the proprietor's option of installing EV charging stations, otherwise the electric co would, could put a meter on each station, and you have paid parking like back in the day, minus the meter readers.

 

[NWRMidnight]

I think you missed my point, I have not read whatever ban they are trying to implement.

A restaurant offering free charging to EV, I don't see a problem with that. It "sounds like" to me the state wants, the revenue for the "free charging" hence the ban, OR it's flat out protecting FF donor's interests trying to push the EV conversion down.

IDK if the legislation is trying to impose the proprietor to cover the expense, or if the state wants to ban the proprietor's option of installing EV charging stations, otherwise the electric co would, could put a meter on each station, and you have paid parking like back in the day, minus the meter readers.

You clearly have no point if you don't even know what is being discussed.

Maybe you should at least read the relievent part about restaurants, that is quoted on the previous page. Where it talks about what it wants restaurants to do, before trying to argue something you clearly have no clue about.

Then we can talk about what ever point you think you are making about something you never read.

 

[HomerJS]

These NC politicians cannot possibly be this stupid can they?

They can be this corrupt

 

[hal2kilo]

How weird, North Carolina has no petroleum industry and offshore drilling could kill North Carolina’s biggest industry (tourism). It’s almost like they’re being bribed to go against the interests of the voters.

That's what all Republican's do. First ask those that need things the least what they most desire. Then give it to them.

 

[Ajay]

How weird, North Carolina has no petroleum industry and offshore drilling could kill North Carolina’s biggest industry (tourism). It’s almost like they’re being bribed to go against the interests of the voters.

 

[pmv]

I am thinking there are alot of people on this forum that are not aware of the pre paid metering system the electric companies are pushing poorer people onto.

That's long been commonplace here. Plenty of people I know are on a pre-pay meter system (I've been on that system myself in the past, in fact). Is that really new over there? It's unfair precisely because it usually involves a surcharge over the normal pricing, thus meaning the poor pay more for their electricity than the wealthy. Plus the first part of what you put in the meter just goes towards paying the wretched "standing charge" that you pay just for having a supply, regardless of how much you use.

 

[pmv]

I see you have never managed a restaurant. It's not something that can be calculated by the minute because it's all influenced by to many changing factors. Lets list a few: number of total guests per minute, number of people on each check. How long every guest was there from start to finish. Electricity costs that change based on usuage, in some states it's also influenced by time of day... guests are also only counted once the order is put in, so what about waiting lists, etc... Again, it would be impossible to give an accurate cost on a customers check by the minute. Any figure given no matter the frequency of the calculation, will only be an estimate, as some of the needed data required can only be based off estimations and averages.

Getting the meter readings via wifi or mobile connection is not the problem.

This is all slightly missing-the-point. The point is not measuring the cost of the electricity used, it's the implication that that is a cost directly passed on to customers in the form of higher prices. By saying it has to be put on every customers' bill they are trying to imply that's what's going on.

But just as with free parking, it's not as simple as that, because offering something free, whether a parking space or an electric charge, draws in more customers, which in turn will increase the turnover and hence profitability of the business and reduce costs for everyone.

Much as I'd like to insist my local supermarket's free parking places are a cost imposed on me as a non-driver (that I should have refunded from motorists as a collective group, in the form of higher taxes for them, and a regular payment to all us non-drivers), it's clear that if they didn't offer such free parking their turnover would be reduced and they'd probably increase prices anyway. deciding exactly what the financial impact of that is, seems a very tricky thing to calculate.

 

[pmv]

I mean, I expect that by offering free electric charging, they are drawing in a wealthier, more up-market customer, who will then buy things with higher profit margins for the retailer. Thus potentially allowing _lower_ prices overall.

 

[Ken g6]

Businesses can fix this very easily. Glue a box on top of the charger saying $1/hour, honor system. Which is about the right price for level 2 charging anyway.

The sad part is the government removing free L2 chargers on public lands, and spending money to do so!

 

[Amol S.]

How weird, North Carolina has no petroleum industry and offshore drilling could kill North Carolina’s biggest industry (tourism). It’s almost like they’re being bribed to go against the interests of the voters.

NC actually has an electricity generation problem. Most of America's power plants that run today where built in the mid 20th century. Back then the population of NC was nothing compared to today. I think they are trying to prevent power shortages, as their grid might not be ready to handle electric vehicles.

 

[Paratus]

NC actually has an electricity generation problem. Most of America's power plants that run today where built in the mid 20th century. Back then the population of NC was nothing compared to today. I think they are trying to prevent power shortages, as their grid might not be ready to handle electric vehicles.

BEVs are not going to cause power problems in the short to midterm.

The reason comes down to how the electrical system works and when most BEVs are charged.


While this is data from TX it’s basically the same everywhere.

Do you see how committed capacity at midnight (0000) is around 65GW drops down to around 55GW at 0700 and finally rises back to 65GW at 0900? The electric providers have to ramp up & down to follow demand. They actually don’t like this. They would rather the load be more level. Some of our providers offer low or free power at night to pursue this.

For the near to mid term BEVs make the most sense for people who can charge at home. Most people work during the day while their car sits in the garage or on the driveway at night. This is the time most people charge their BEVs. Which helps level out the the load.

If the electrical providers just held steady at 65GW from 0000-0900 and BEV charging filled in the demand at a constant 55GW that would provide roughly 45GWh of energy to charge BEVs from midnight to 9.

My BEV uses 250Wh/mile. That’s 45GWh of energy would be good to provide 180 million miles or enough to charge 5.5M BEVs driving ~ 30 miles/day.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

BEVs are not going to cause power problems in the short to midterm.

The reason comes down to how the electrical system works and when most BEVs are charged.

View attachment 63287
While this is data from TX it’s basically the same everywhere.

Do you see how committed capacity at midnight (0000) is around 65GW drops down to around 55GW at 0700 and finally rises back to 65GW at 0900? The electric providers have to ramp up & down to follow demand. They actually don’t like this. They would rather the load be more level. Some of our providers offer low or free power at night to pursue this.

For the near to mid term BEVs make the most sense for people who can charge at home. Most people work during the day while their car sits in the garage or on the driveway at night. This is the time most people charge their BEVs. Which helps level out the the load.

If the electrical providers just held steady at 65GW from 0000-0900 and BEV charging filled in the demand at a constant 55GW that would provide roughly 45GWh of energy to charge BEVs from midnight to 9.

My BEV uses 250Wh/mile. That’s 45GWh of energy would be good to provide 180 million miles or enough to charge 5.5M BEVs driving ~ 30 miles/day.

So just use batteries and maintain a constant supply, varying with wind and solar? We need to get out of the business of firing additional pistons during demand shifts. Not like we haven't invented trending.

 

[DaaQ]

You clearly have no point if you don't even know what is being discussed.

Maybe you should at least read the relievent part about restaurants, that is quoted on the previous page. Where it talks about what it wants restaurants to do, before trying to argue something you clearly have no clue about.

Then we can talk about what ever point you think you are making about something you never read.

I see you are ONLY looking at this from a restauranteur POV. I did read the shit and you are being obtuse. IT said restaurants AND ECT. Private businesses.
But continue your restaurant rant because reasons. You know everything about everyone.

So lets continue some more, IF the restaurant got a STATE SUBSIDY, for providing chargers, for EV, THEN they might be enforceable. BUT if it was the private business's decision to provide the chargers, what then. WHAT IF the business got a FEDERAL SUBSIDY? Would that ridiculous law, then be enforceable to ITEMIZE charges?

We are part of a SBO proprietorship, NO we aren't a restaurant, but you wanna just trash everyone else because you're a Restauranteur.

DID I get that right?

 

[IronWing]

NC actually has an electricity generation problem. Most of America's power plants that run today where built in the mid 20th century. Back then the population of NC was nothing compared to today. I think they are trying to prevent power shortages, as their grid might not be ready to handle electric vehicles.

Those EVs are going to charge somewhere anyway. There is no change to the amount of draw on the power grid because an owner charges at a restaurant instead of at home.

 

[vi edit]

Got to think bigger. Where the cars *are* part of the grid. Two way charging where you keep your car plugged in and it charges when demand is low and the grid/your house pulls from the car when demand is high. We're not far away from this, we just don't need it to be culture war or political issue. It's just good fucking use of technology.

 

[UNCjigga]

How weird, North Carolina has no petroleum industry and offshore drilling could kill North Carolina’s biggest industry (tourism). It’s almost like they’re being bribed to go against the interests of the voters.

It’s one thing to raise taxes on electric cars and charging stations to help pay for roads (because their drivers are using roads and not paying gas taxes…ok, fair enough). But this is just bonkers.

 

[zinfamous]

These NC politicians cannot possibly be this stupid can they?

I grew up there. I know this place.


the answer is, "yes."

 

[trenchfoot]

How weird, North Carolina has no petroleum industry and offshore drilling could kill North Carolina’s biggest industry (tourism). It’s almost like they’re being bribed to go against the interests of the voters.

In support of your line of thought, it seems pretty obvious that the leadership of several deep south states that are locked up by the Repubs justifiably take for granted that they can practically do anything they want to their electorate or anyone else in their states and not suffer any blowback for it due to the conditioning their supporters have been put through for nigh on decades. DeSantis and his bevy of thoroughly corrupted conservative underlings are a perfect example of this.

So too is Manchin, the supposed Democrat that's got his home state safely under the control of himself and his conservative business associates. He's been blatantly providing interference for the Repubs and getting away with it, knowing he'll not suffer the consequences of his actions, although I hope they all will someday, somehow.

It's their own brand of fascism on the state level that they're running over there.

 

[NWRMidnight]

This is all slightly missing-the-point. The point is not measuring the cost of the electricity used, it's the implication that that is a cost directly passed on to customers in the form of higher prices. By saying it has to be put on every customers' bill they are trying to imply that's what's going on.

But just as with free parking, it's not as simple as that, because offering something free, whether a parking space or an electric charge, draws in more customers, which in turn will increase the turnover and hence profitability of the business and reduce costs for everyone.

Much as I'd like to insist my local supermarket's free parking places are a cost imposed on me as a non-driver (that I should have refunded from motorists as a collective group, in the form of higher taxes for them, and a regular payment to all us non-drivers), it's clear that if they didn't offer such free parking their turnover would be reduced and they'd probably increase prices anyway. deciding exactly what the financial impact of that is, seems a very tricky thing to calculate.

I was just talking about the tracking part, which is why I bold typed the specific part of your response I originally responded to. However, It's all passed onto the customer in the form of higher prices, it doesn't matter what technique is used to increase business and traffic. Someone has to pay for it, and it sure as hell isn't going to be the Business owner if they can help it. Don't be fooled that when they offer "promotions" or "free", the cost is always passed on to the customer, either immediately or at a later date. This includes the parking lot out front. It's all part of the cost of business, which prices are increased to compensate for, so the business can make a profit, which is the purpose of being in business. Prices will always be increased to cover costs, including those that they deem "Free". Nothing is free.

I see you are ONLY looking at this from a restauranteur POV. I did read the shit and you are being obtuse. IT said restaurants AND ECT. Private businesses.
But continue your restaurant rant because reasons. You know everything about everyone.

So lets continue some more, IF the restaurant got a STATE SUBSIDY, for providing chargers, for EV, THEN they might be enforceable. BUT if it was the private business's decision to provide the chargers, what then. WHAT IF the business got a FEDERAL SUBSIDY? Would that ridiculous law, then be enforceable to ITEMIZE charges?

We are part of a SBO proprietorship, NO we aren't a restaurant, but you wanna just trash everyone else because you're a Restauranteur.

DID I get that right?

Completely out of the context of what I am talking about. I was talking about the requirement of businesses (restaurants etc) Tracking and notating the cost of the "Free" EV charging, and that ability to track such information. You said they could track it by the minute, I was just pointing out why that is false. So no DaaQ, I am not being obtuse, I was just using restaurants as an example, as it doesn't matter what business you want to use, they all have to track the same information and use the same calculations to come up with the figure they want them to require to do. It doesn't matter if it's a restaurant, your local hardware store, or the local strip joint you hang out in.

But let me retract my comment about you have never managed a restaurant and replace it with you have never managed or owned a business. If you have or do, then please tell me how that is possible, where you don't have the first clue about tracking specific categories or costs, and why it would be impossible to track such information by the minute as you claimed they can. either way, I am specifically talking about the ability to track the information. not anything else. You seem to want to argue other shit that is out of context (enforceable/not enforceable.. not what is being discussed)

Besides, you are the one who said:

I have not read whatever ban they are trying to implement.

Which is what this the article and this thread is about, which includes the requirement of tracking and notating how much customers are subsidizing the "free" EV charging. So how can you sit here and argue, and try to make a point about something that YOU YOURSELF said you did not read? Yet, now claim you read the shit.. WTF?

 

[Paratus]

It’s one thing to raise taxes on electric cars and charging stations to help pay for roads (because their drivers are using roads and not paying gas taxes…ok, fair enough). But this is just bonkers.

I’ve mentioned this before but TX was looking to pass a law like this but instead of bringing BEVs up to parity with gas vehicles the yearly registration fee would have been 2-3X more than the gas vehicle registration fee + gas taxes of a V8 truck driving 12,000 miles/year.

Luckily it didn’t make it out of committee.

 

[K1052]

I’ve mentioned this before but TX was looking to pass a law like this but instead of bringing BEVs up to parity with gas vehicles the yearly registration fee would have been 2-3X more than the gas vehicle registration fee + gas taxes of a V8 truck driving 12,000 miles/year.

Luckily it didn’t make it out of committee.

The irony of Tesla building a huge factory in a state where you can't technically buy their cars from them and with a state legislature that could just as soon incinerate their entire business here instantly if the fossil fuel companies gave the nod has really been something. I'd have put it in Georgia

 

[Ajay]

The irony of Tesla building a huge factory in a state where you can't technically buy their cars from them and with a state legislature that could just as soon incinerate their entire business here instantly if the fossil fuel companies gave the nod has really been something. I'd have put it in Georgia

Petro Sales $$s >>> Tesla vehicle sales; and likewise for taxes and total jobs. Can’t pluck some feathers off the golden goose, it might get scared 🙄. Seriously, there is no legitimate reason EVs can coexist with vehicles using petroleum based fuels. I know I’m preaching to the choir here.

Oh, and bribes campaign dollars.

 

[sandorski]

The irony of Tesla building a huge factory in a state where you can't technically buy their cars from them and with a state legislature that could just as soon incinerate their entire business here instantly if the fossil fuel companies gave the nod has really been something. I'd have put it in Georgia

Elon is becoming more political. Abbot seems to be his kinda guy.

 

[Ajay]

BEVs are not going to cause power problems in the short to midterm.

The reason comes down to how the electrical system works and when most BEVs are charged.

View attachment 63287
While this is data from TX it’s basically the same everywhere.

Do you see how committed capacity at midnight (0000) is around 65GW drops down to around 55GW at 0700 and finally rises back to 65GW at 0900? The electric providers have to ramp up & down to follow demand. They actually don’t like this. They would rather the load be more level. Some of our providers offer low or free power at night to pursue this.

For the near to mid term BEVs make the most sense for people who can charge at home. Most people work during the day while their car sits in the garage or on the driveway at night. This is the time most people charge their BEVs. Which helps level out the the load.

If the electrical providers just held steady at 65GW from 0000-0900 and BEV charging filled in the demand at a constant 55GW that would provide roughly 45GWh of energy to charge BEVs from midnight to 9.

My BEV uses 250Wh/mile. That’s 45GWh of energy would be good to provide 180 million miles or enough to charge 5.5M BEVs driving ~ 30 miles/day.

Nice bit of research! Currently there are just over 8M automobiles in Tx (2020 data). Can’t find the total number of vehicles, that’s premium info on Statista. Still, your number get close to the total number needed. Unfortunately, most Americans start becoming resistant as BEV mileage drops below 300mi, because they can easily fill their ICE vehicles tanks to provide that kin of range in ~10 minutes (in and out). Evening charging is enough for almost all needs (got to buzz out of the house, so no time to look up statistics), but many people seem to be immune to the idea that their daily commute makes up the vast percentage of the travel miles.