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NBA players voting to end the season in solidarity with Jacob Blake

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Bitek

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2001
9,017
2,902
136
Everyone that works for me losses the right to protest when they're on the clock. I don't care what their politics are, I don't care how strongly they believe in any cause. If they decide to make my business part of a political statement, or choose to use the time I'm paying for to pursue their own agenda, they will be replaced. The other side of that coin is that I would never ask one of my people to support a cause they were against, or do something they were morally opposed to. I also would have no issue if they wanted a day off to support an issue that was important to them.
Work for you?

Are you an owner?

Or just a guy who sits on his ass for a game, watches a few beer commercials, and thinks that entities him to an opinion?

You sure you're not working for them?
 
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Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
16,662
2,171
126
Work for you?

Are you an owner?

Or just a guy who sits on his ass for a game, watches a few beer commercials, and thinks that entities him to an opinion?

You sure you're not working for them?
If you really want an answer, read the entire thread, then edit your post so actually has something to do with what I've said.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
70,181
18,981
136
If you really want an answer, read the entire thread, then edit your post so actually has something to do with what I've said.
I mean the basic difference here is that NBA players have vastly more leverage than your employees do. You fire some random guy who doesn't show up to work and you probably don't lose that much. The NBA fires LeBron? Catastrophe for them.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
103,551
18,101
136
Everyone that works for me losses the right to protest when they're on the clock. I don't care what their politics are, I don't care how strongly they believe in any cause. If they decide to make my business part of a political statement, or choose to use the time I'm paying for to pursue their own agenda, they will be replaced. The other side of that coin is that I would never ask one of my people to support a cause they were against, or do something they were morally opposed to. I also would have no issue if they wanted a day off to support an issue that was important to them.
that's great and all, but I don't think Greenman Contractors, LLC has the same public exposure, culture-defining, and economic power (which is how you get people to move), that professional sports leagues and their athletes have. It just....isn't comparable. I don't think anyone begrudges how you handle your employees and they you, in your role as a largely unknown factor as a general employer like millions of others, but there is great weight that professional athletes carry, whether or not you or anyone else like it or simply accepts that plain truth.

This does give them agency to act in such ways, as many of them personally feel that they are more than just dumb jocks--certainly, they are allowed to think that way, right?

Also, don't you think it's a bit insulting for the rabble to try and criticize them with "Well, I'm not going to watch you do your sports if you're going to talk like that!"? Do you not think this is already under consideration when they make their decision to speak out, and essentially sacrifice their livelihoods for it?

It goes back to what others have said, as this seems to be your only avenue of attack: work and money = value. The only value you seem to recognize as a human. Conservatives very much worship Mammon and that is all. Nothing more it seems. Some humans, the vast majority in fact, value far more in life beyond dumb work. Many recognize greater things beyond that, beyond ourselves. And it doesn't have to be some deity.
 
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zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
103,551
18,101
136
Right. Because players aren't a dime a dozen with plenty in the batting cages of college ready to join at anytime.

So why haven't the players branched off and just made/managed their own league?
are you serious? especially baseball of all thing. It is very very VERY rare talent that can actually compete at the ML level. Every team has 3 farm leagues. Very few of those will ever make it. Fans sure as shit aren't going to watch a league comprised of .120 batters that can't hit the curve, lol.

Also, most humans take a very negative attitude towards scabs. They just don't do it. Some will, of course, but good luck putting together an entire league of scabs.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
70,181
18,981
136
that's great and all, but I don't think Greenman Contractors, LLC has the same public exposure, culture-defining, and economic power (which is how you get people to move), that professional sports leagues and their athletes have. It just....isn't comparable. I don't think anyone begrudges how you handle your employees and they you, in your role as a largely unknown factor as a general employer like millions of others, but there is great weight that professional athletes carry, whether or not you or anyone else like it or simply accepts that plain truth.

This does give them agency to act in such ways, as many of them personally feel that they are more than just dumb jocks--certainly, they are allowed to think that way, right?

Also, don't you think it's a bit insulting for the rabble to try and criticize them with "Well, I'm not going to watch you do your sports if you're going to talk like that!"? Do you not think this is already under consideration when they make their decision to speak out, and essentially sacrifice their livelihoods for it?

It goes back to what others have said, as this seems to be your only avenue of attack: work and money = value. The only value you seem to recognize as a human. Conservatives very much worship Mammon and that is all. Nothing more it seems. Some humans, the vast majority in fact, value far more in life beyond dumb work. Many recognize greater things beyond that, beyond ourselves. And it doesn't have to be some deity.
What I think is funny is that conservatives constantly complain about cancel culture and then say they're going to boycott sports leagues when the players say things they don't like.

I'm trying to figure out if they are so dumb they don't see how that's the same cancel culture they are complaining about or if they are so dishonest they don't care.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
103,551
18,101
136

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
16,662
2,171
126
I mean the basic difference here is that NBA players have vastly more leverage than your employees do. You fire some random guy who doesn't show up to work and you probably don't lose that much. The NBA fires LeBron? Catastrophe for them.
Fair enough. If his talent is such that they can't survive without him then he's in charge and does as he see's fit. The owner of his team gets to say "yes sir". I don't see how he maintains that status when he refuses to play. At that point, his value to the team approaches zero, and the owner has to decide if his future value is worth the cost of keeping him around.
I may very well be all wrong about this. I don't follow pro sports and the entire concept of paying someone millions to play ball seems insane to me. I've also never been able to understand the fan mentality, it seems foolish to me.
 
Nov 8, 2012
17,671
3,436
126
What I think is funny is that conservatives constantly complain about cancel culture and then say they're going to boycott sports leagues when the players say things they don't like.

I'm trying to figure out if they are so dumb they don't see how that's the same cancel culture they are complaining about or if they are so dishonest they don't care.
Boycotting != cancel culture.

Sorry that it is too difficult for you to understand that.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
30,955
9,741
146
what were they throwing out of windows a few years ago....toasters or Nespressos or some crap? lol
Keurig's, and probably went and bought another, cuz reasons.

When D's do it, it's cancel culture. When R's do it, it's boycotting.

Conservatives have been engaging in cancel for thousands of years, it's funny how they cry about it when it's them getting boycotted.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
70,181
18,981
136
Boycotting != cancel culture.

Sorry that it is too difficult for you to understand that.
Uhmmm, yes it is. That's explicitly what conservatives complain about, that people aren't just disagreeing with those who have objectionable views but threatening their economic livelihood.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
103,551
18,101
136
Fair enough. If his talent is such that they can't survive without him then he's in charge and does as he see's fit. The owner of his team gets to say "yes sir". I don't see how he maintains that status when he refuses to play. At that point, his value to the team approaches zero, and the owner has to decide if his future value is worth the cost of keeping him around.
I may very well be all wrong about this. I don't follow pro sports and the entire concept of paying someone millions to play ball seems insane to me. I've also never been able to understand the fan mentality, it seems foolish to me.
Dude...at the time MJ retired, he was calculated to be something like 3% of the total GDP of the US, lol. These guys have very very real power over these leagues. You don't just replace Lebron. He is the face of various other corporations as well, so trying to push them into some box that they don't exist in, like this bizarre idea of "replaceable ball dribbler" is absolutely insane. It's ignorant, incurious, and useless as an argument. It ignores the plain reality of who these people are.

As far as the NBA...it's not the game that I used to like. Hell, I pretty much stopped following it after MJ retired (hated that guy...mostly for being a UNC punk...but endless respect for his incredible talent and work ethic on and off the court).
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
70,181
18,981
136
Fair enough. If his talent is such that they can't survive without him then he's in charge and does as he see's fit. The owner of his team gets to say "yes sir". I don't see how he maintains that status when he refuses to play. At that point, his value to the team approaches zero, and the owner has to decide if his future value is worth the cost of keeping him around.
I may very well be all wrong about this. I don't follow pro sports and the entire concept of paying someone millions to play ball seems insane to me. I've also never been able to understand the fan mentality, it seems foolish to me.
Well sure, but that's like any strike. If the workers just strike forever eventually their value becomes zero but really what they're trying to do is extract concessions.

So the question isn't who lives and who dies but really just a negotiation.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
70,181
18,981
136
Keurig's, and probably went and bought another, cuz reasons.

When D's do it, it's cancel culture. When R's do it, it's boycotting.

Conservatives have been engaging in cancel for thousands of years, it's funny how they cry about it when it's them getting boycotted.
I'm old enough to remember how conservatives were refusing to buy anything French and renamed french fries Freedom Fries (cringe), all because France realized the Iraq War was a dumb idea long before conservatives did. Or the Dixie Chicks, same thing. Totally cancelled by the right.

What conservatives really want is the same thing they ALWAYS want, which is to be able to do whatever they want without consequences. If they boycott you that's fine. If you boycott them, that's cancel culture. They are entitled, whining babies.

I'm perfectly fine with conservatives boycotting the NBA or the NFL because athletes have decided to say that violent, unaccountable police are bad. It says a lot more about them than it does about those athletes.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
25,091
9,965
136
Boycotting != cancel culture.

Sorry that it is too difficult for you to understand that.
Really? Rosa Parks and MLK would disagree with you. They were not trying to end the Montgomery Ala bus service but push for policy change.

Another example boycotts against sponsors of Tucker Carlson's show. If he stopped promoting racist ideals on TV boycotts would stop.

Again you are never satisfied with any methods of protesting.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
70,181
18,981
136
Really? Rosa Parks and MLK would disagree with you. They were not trying to end the Montgomery Ala bus service but push for policy change.

Another example boycotts against sponsors of Tucker Carlson's show. If he stopped promoting racist ideals on TV boycotts would stop.

Again you are never satisfied with any methods of protesting.
The most telling thing ever was when Trevor Noah asked that idiot Tomi Lahren about the NFL kneeling protests, which she thought were unacceptable. All he asked her was 'okay, then what form of protest would be acceptable?' and she had no answer.

I imagine this is partially because she's not very smart and is too intellectually lazy to come up with a good lie but it's also true. There is no form of protest conservatives would find acceptable, they just don't want to admit it. The act of protesting itself is what conservatives find objectionable, not how it's done.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
29,505
3,008
126
I'm perfectly fine with conservatives boycotting the NBA or the NFL because athletes have decided to say that violent, unaccountable police are bad. It says a lot more about them than it does about those athletes.
It tells me this country has had irreparable harm done to it. And I fear the only way forward is after we have tired of the bloodshed. Which, based on human track records, could take centuries after we violently fracture as our base tribalism is wont to do. I see a disastrous path before us, and I cannot imagine we have a way out. Not with human nature being what it is.

What is occurring now is merely a formality. A choosing of sides.

But you may yet be blinded to the seriousness of it all - so I will attempt to illustrate. You see these athletes as protesting "violent, unaccountable police". An act in favor of civil rights. You are proud of them, who wouldn't be? Conservatives see them honoring a terrorist organization (#BLM) that has brought riots, violence, looting, and shootings to our streets. That has ruined lives and businesses. Fanning flames that keep burning each night. They are seen as favoring civil unrest.

And so our nation's fracture grows wider with even deeper divisions. There is no commonality, no understanding. Just a painting of each other with the other's narrative. Villain we shout at each other. Madness abounds as we descend into chaos.
 
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ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
30,955
9,741
146
It tells me this country has had irreparable harm done to it. And I fear the only way forward is after we have tired of the bloodshed. Which, based on human track records, could take centuries after we violently fracture as our base tribalism is wont to do. I see a disastrous path before us, and I cannot imagine we have a way out. Not with human nature being what it is.

What is occurring now is merely a formality. A choosing of sides.

But you may yet be blinded to the seriousness of it all - so I will attempt to illustrate. You see these athletes as protesting "violent, unaccountable police". An act in favor of civil rights. You are proud of them, who wouldn't be? Conservatives see them honoring a terrorist organization (#BLM) that has brought riots, violence, looting, and shootings to our streets. That has ruined lives and businesses. Fanning flames that keep burning each night. They are seen as favoring civil unrest.

And so our nation's fracture grows wider with even deeper divisions. There is no commonality, no understanding. Just a painting of each other with the other's narrative. Villain we shout at each other. Madness abounds as we descend into chaos.
And it really has its roots in the 60's social overhaul. Religious nutters and conservatives in general have been on another crusade since then.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
70,181
18,981
136
It tells me this country has had irreparable harm done to it. And I fear the only way forward is after we have tired of the bloodshed. Which, based on human track records, could take centuries after we violently fracture as our base tribalism is wont to do. I see a disastrous path before us, and I cannot imagine we have a way out. Not with human nature being what it is.

What is occurring now is merely a formality. A choosing of sides.

But you may yet be blinded to the seriousness of it all - so I will attempt to illustrate. You see these athletes as protesting "violent, unaccountable police". An act in favor of civil rights. You are proud of them, who wouldn't be? Conservatives see them honoring a terrorist organization (#BLM) that has brought riots, violence, looting, and shootings to our streets. That has ruined lives and businesses. Fanning flames that keep burning each night. They are seen as favoring civil unrest.

And so our nation's fracture grows wider with even deeper divisions. There is no commonality, no understanding. Just a painting of each other with the other's narrative. Villain we shout. Madness abounds as we descend into chaos.
This is the same way conservatives viewed the 1960's civil rights movement and now they laud it and pretend they would have supported it too so there is some hope that eventually conservatives will see the light here as well. Remember, conservatives HATED MLK when he was alive. Absolutely loathed him. Now look at him.

That being said, I share your fear that there's some dark days ahead of us. If Trump wins he will basically finish the job of turning the federal government from an agency intended to serve the public to one intended to serve the president. If he loses though, I expect the same right wing insurrection that happened under Obama but on steroids.

So in short I guess I see the US suffering from major internal domestic conflict for many years to come.
 

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