NBA fans, is this video accurate or BS

[SAWYER]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5auPSMaD3vE

 

[cpacini]

I didn't watch the the whole video, but yes, the hand checking and some defensive rules are a bit more strict now then when Jordan was in his prime. The level of competition is probably a bit higher though, so all in all it's probably a wash.

 

[Baked]

You should watch Cleveland games. Lebron just walks to the basket for his dunks. Like 4-5 steps. That's skills.

 

[dbk]

Just watch the DWade spin move video.

'nuff said

 

[gorcorps]

Originally posted by: Baked
You should watch Cleveland games. Lebron just walks to the basket for his dunks. Like 4-5 steps. That's skills.

Or complete and utter laziness on the defense side. I can't stand pro basketball for this very reason. They don't even fucking try anymore.

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: gorcorps

Originally posted by: Baked
You should watch Cleveland games. Lebron just walks to the basket for his dunks. Like 4-5 steps. That's skills.

Or complete and utter laziness on the defense side. I can't stand pro basketball for this very reason. They don't even fucking try anymore.

This. Why put your body on the line when that body is netting you $4mill/year?

 

[LtPage1]

There was a really interesting article in yesterday's New York Times Magazine that speaks to this.

In Major League Baseball, players from the Dominican Republic, many of them raised in poverty, have a reputation as free swingers who will chase almost any pitch rather than work a base on balls. When the former Atlanta Braves shortstop Rafael Ramirez was asked during the 1986 season about why he had gone some 40 games without drawing a walk, seemingly an impossibility, he famously replied, ?A walk won?t get you off the island.?

A similar line of thinking prevailed at the Junior Phenom camp. The young players may not have known Francis?s precise methods, but they seemed to have a sense that they had better do something pretty spectacular, and quickly. One morning, I watched a game involving Billy Clark III, a quick and slippery 12-year-old guard from the Bedford-Stuyvesant section of Brooklyn who had the speed and moves to evade his defender and get off a shot at any time. Which he did ? just about every time he touched the ball. In a 32-minute game, of which he played just a little more than half, he put up 34 shots by my count.

His father, Billy Jr., sat in the bleachers and exhorted him on. He explained to me, ?What I told him is, in this setting, you?ve got to establish your dominance.?

Billy?s shooting, while certainly excessive, was pretty much emblematic of how most of the young players approached their mission. They passed only as a last resort. They played indifferent defense, or none at all. To watch this up close was to gain an understanding of the roots of the decline of team play in American basketball.

 

[johnjohn320]

Originally posted by: zinfamous

Originally posted by: gorcorps

Originally posted by: Baked
You should watch Cleveland games. Lebron just walks to the basket for his dunks. Like 4-5 steps. That's skills.

Or complete and utter laziness on the defense side. I can't stand pro basketball for this very reason. They don't even fucking try anymore.

This. Why put your body on the line when that body is netting you $4mill/year?

Uh-huh. Either of you tough guys care to put up a vid of yourselves waltzing past these lazy, apathetic NBA defenders toward the hoop?

 

[vi edit]

Didn't watch the video so can't comment directly on it. But Stern has shifted the balance of the game completely in favor of offense. High scores and flashy moves sell tickets and posters. Low scoring defensive games just aren't fun to watch. So the offensive guy gets the free pass to the basket. It's not a fair fight. Plus you have the introduction of things like flagrent fouls, technical fouls for even looking at a ref the wrong way if the call is crap, ect.

And then there's the issue of lots of internation players coming in to the league. I'm sorry but the euro style of play is nothing but a flop fest. They can't defend. At all. Without flailing their body in some random direction at even the slightest hint of contact.

The game has just transitioned from a true sport to entertainment.

 

[Insomniator]

Give me a break, tough defense is played all over the league. Plenty of guys that are making 4 mil a year do so because of their defense and not there sick offensive skills that net 10 points a game.

 

[NeoV]

another ATOT thread about sports that is mostly wrong - imagine that

LeBron has no skills, and all his dunks are traveling - um, ok.....

Lazy D? Are you kidding me? I agree in the heyday of Jordan's prime that the D rules allowed more contact - but that was the exception, not the rule, in the NBA for a long, long time. Those Knick teams, with Oakley and Mason, and the Pistons teams with Lambeer, Rodman, Salley, and Mahorn - were way too physical - more like football than basketball.

Good NBA teams today emphasize D - SA, Boston, Cleveland, even LA and Orlando. Cleveland leads the league in scoring D and FG % D - it's rare for a team to lead in both. Players today are in general bigger and stronger than they were in the past, and the game is as physical as it should be. It's not like the game is a dunk-fest, and when the playoffs come around - you tell me teams aren't playing D. If you really think the NBA today - even during the regular season - is about 'complete and utter laziness on the defensive side' then you are either ignorant about what is going on or you are watching too many Golden St Warrior games.

Flagrant fouls are good for the game - we don't need goons like Anthony Mason in the league, or 'enforcers' like you have in Hockey.

Technical fouls - another good thing - I can live without watching RaWeed Wallace complain about every damn call like he wasn't even in the vicinity of the play.

International players - I will agree that they aren't particularly good defenders, but they are in general much more fundamentally sound than many American players in terms of shooting/passing skills. Free throw shooting anyone?

I think they only real problem with the NBA's rules right now is flopping/charging. I have no problem with charging calls when a guy with the ball puts his shoulder into a defender, but when a guy from the other side of the lane slides under a guy going down the lane, it's almost too hard of a call to make - I'd like to see the 'no charge' area under the hoop extended out in all directions at least another foot or so. I'm not sure I can think of a rule that would stop flopping though - but I agree it's highly annoying.

Also - that article on the demise of American team basketball - based on a 12 year old kid in NY? Did you happen to watch the Olympics?

 

[trmiv]

The rules have been changed a lot lately to allow offenses to be more efficient and produce higher scoring games, however defenses today are more sophisticated than defense in the 70's and 80's. Defenses started getting more and more complex in the 90's. Teams were heavily using tape to scout teams and individual players to plan defense. As the technology got better teams have been able to use tape even more heavily to prepare players for opposing teams. I know a lot of teams use portable DVD players as well as ipods and provide their players with tape of the players they will be facing.

One reason why defenses look worse now is because players are really better than they were in the 80's. I know people love to wax poetic about players in the past, but players today are bigger, stronger, faster and more athletic. There are a lot of centers who are very mobile and can shoot, most power forwards now have three-point range and can handle the ball. Overall players are more athletic than they have ever been. So even with the more sophisticated defense, it's hard to stop a lot of the players today.

 

[L1FE]

Originally posted by: NeoV
another ATOT thread about sports that is mostly wrong - imagine that

LeBron has no skills, and all his dunks are traveling - um, ok.....

Lazy D? Are you kidding me? I agree in the heyday of Jordan's prime that the D rules allowed more contact - but that was the exception, not the rule, in the NBA for a long, long time. Those Knick teams, with Oakley and Mason, and the Pistons teams with Lambeer, Rodman, Salley, and Mahorn - were way too physical - more like football than basketball.

Good NBA teams today emphasize D - SA, Boston, Cleveland, even LA and Orlando. Cleveland leads the league in scoring D and FG % D - it's rare for a team to lead in both. Players today are in general bigger and stronger than they were in the past, and the game is as physical as it should be. It's not like the game is a dunk-fest, and when the playoffs come around - you tell me teams aren't playing D. If you really think the NBA today - even during the regular season - is about 'complete and utter laziness on the defensive side' then you are either ignorant about what is going on or you are watching too many Golden St Warrior games.

Flagrant fouls are good for the game - we don't need goons like Anthony Mason in the league, or 'enforcers' like you have in Hockey.

Technical fouls - another good thing - I can live without watching RaWeed Wallace complain about every damn call like he wasn't even in the vicinity of the play.

International players - I will agree that they aren't particularly good defenders, but they are in general much more fundamentally sound than many American players in terms of shooting/passing skills. Free throw shooting anyone?

I think they only real problem with the NBA's rules right now is flopping/charging. I have no problem with charging calls when a guy with the ball puts his shoulder into a defender, but when a guy from the other side of the lane slides under a guy going down the lane, it's almost too hard of a call to make - I'd like to see the 'no charge' area under the hoop extended out in all directions at least another foot or so. I'm not sure I can think of a rule that would stop flopping though - but I agree it's highly annoying.

Also - that article on the demise of American team basketball - based on a 12 year old kid in NY? Did you happen to watch the Olympics?

This. Also, the pace of the game has actually slowed down a lot since showtime days, and much of it is due to the emphasis on D. I also think it's funny how people are saying players aren't trying hard when we're in one of the closest playoff races ever! We're talking about one win or loss moving you from home court advantage to out of 8th! I'm pretty sure the players are trying plenty hard...

 

[Saulbadguy]

You can't even see the score or time left in the videos. I kind of question the accuracy of the videos taken, could they be in end game/late game situations where defensive pressure is stepped up?

 

[Homerboy]

Originally posted by: Saulbadguy
You can't even see the score or time left in the videos. I kind of question the accuracy of the videos taken, could they be in end game/late game situations where defensive pressure is stepped up?

What? Did you even watch the video? They continuously show scores and time left. Let alone you can tell by the action on the court, the fans and announcers where the game is at. Also, keep in mind, that back then the score were not on the screen the whole time like today.

 

[Demon-Xanth]

I went to a few NBA games and was basically bored because actually trying to defend was a foul.
"You can't stay under the basket"
"You can't move in front of the ball carrier"
"You can't touch anything else but the basketball"

The only defensive move you could do was to foul the ball carrier because the chance that they could make two points off a free throw was nothing while the chance that they could go for an easy shot was huge.

 

[cheezy321]

Originally posted by: vi edit
Didn't watch the video so can't comment directly on it. But Stern has shifted the balance of the game completely in favor of offense. High scores and flashy moves sell tickets and posters. Low scoring defensive games just aren't fun to watch. So the offensive guy gets the free pass to the basket. It's not a fair fight. Plus you have the introduction of things like flagrent fouls, technical fouls for even looking at a ref the wrong way if the call is crap, ect.

And then there's the issue of lots of internation players coming in to the league. I'm sorry but the euro style of play is nothing but a flop fest. They can't defend. At all. Without flailing their body in some random direction at even the slightest hint of contact.

The game has just transitioned from a true sport to entertainment.

You do know that the NBA PPG is at one of the all time lows when compared to the NBA of the 90's right? I would say high powered offenses are on the decline in the NBA while defense is the key to winning championships. The PPG totals for every team prove that.

Read this article by John Hollinger

Specifically this:

Unfortunately for James, he plays in one of the slowest-paced eras in the league's history. Though things have picked up a bit the past few seasons, even run-and-gun teams like Golden State and Phoenix would be considered walk-it-up outfits if they played in the 1980s or '90s. Jordan's 1987-88 Bulls, for instance, were the league's slowest-paced team at a pace factor of 98.2 -- one that would rank fourth from the top in 2008-09, just ahead of the fabled Suns.

The comparisons get even more lopsided once you go further back in history -- when Chamberlain averaged his 50.4 points, for instance, the Celtics were the only team to give up fewer than 116 points per game.

 

[Perknose]

Thanks, later posters. You have semi-restored my faith in ATOT's sports knowledge.

 

[vi edit]

You do know that the NBA PPG is at one of the all time lows when compared to the NBA of the 90's right? I would say high powered offenses are on the decline in the NBA while defense is the key to winning championships. The PPG totals for every team prove that.

There's a lot of things that can contribute to that. Heck, just look at how things changed with the introduction of the three point shot. There's almost an inverse relationship between average PPG, shots attempted per game, and the number of 3 pointers made. Offenses just got sloppy and relied on jacking up 3's. Sure team defensive schemes play a part in that, but it's not just defense that has caused 3 point attempts to quintuple in 20 years.

Assists per game are considerably down from what they were in high scoring years. By as much as 10 assists a game depending on the team. When your ball rotation is down that much, and the shots you are taking are that much lower percentage, it's no surprise that PPG are down too.

 

[dougp]

Originally posted by: cheezy321

Originally posted by: vi edit
Didn't watch the video so can't comment directly on it. But Stern has shifted the balance of the game completely in favor of offense. High scores and flashy moves sell tickets and posters. Low scoring defensive games just aren't fun to watch. So the offensive guy gets the free pass to the basket. It's not a fair fight. Plus you have the introduction of things like flagrent fouls, technical fouls for even looking at a ref the wrong way if the call is crap, ect.

And then there's the issue of lots of internation players coming in to the league. I'm sorry but the euro style of play is nothing but a flop fest. They can't defend. At all. Without flailing their body in some random direction at even the slightest hint of contact.

The game has just transitioned from a true sport to entertainment.

You do know that the NBA PPG is at one of the all time lows when compared to the NBA of the 90's right? I would say high powered offenses are on the decline in the NBA while defense is the key to winning championships. The PPG totals for every team prove that.

Read this article by John Hollinger

Specifically this:

Unfortunately for James, he plays in one of the slowest-paced eras in the league's history. Though things have picked up a bit the past few seasons, even run-and-gun teams like Golden State and Phoenix would be considered walk-it-up outfits if they played in the 1980s or '90s. Jordan's 1987-88 Bulls, for instance, were the league's slowest-paced team at a pace factor of 98.2 -- one that would rank fourth from the top in 2008-09, just ahead of the fabled Suns.

The comparisons get even more lopsided once you go further back in history -- when Chamberlain averaged his 50.4 points, for instance, the Celtics were the only team to give up fewer than 116 points per game.

Don't quote Hollinger, he knows nothing about the game of basketball. All he knows is numbers, and those have been wrong for years.