Nationalism vs Racism.

[Bluefront]

Nationalism is exibited frequently on this forum....and tolerated. You won't get banned if you say the USA is the best country....democracy is the best form of government.....in order to protect our interests we have the right to attack anyone....etc.

Racism is almost the same.....but not tolerated here, by the mods or by most of the posters. If you say my race (fill in your brand) is the best race......we do the best things....everyone else is inferior....we're smarter, prettier.....etc, you probably will have your thread locked, and you might get banned.

What's the difference? Seems to me a natural thing to think your own country is the best, your own race is the best. It's very difficult to separate the two ideas, from the way I look at it.

And yet the one idea is tolerated the other not. What gives?

 

[PlatinumGold]

What's the difference? Seems to me a natural thing to think your own country is the best, your own race is the best. It's very difficult to separate the two ideas, from the way I look at it.

well for one thing, w/ most countries, Nation = Race. more or less.

So, w/ most countries, Nationalism = racism. Japan for example. If a Japanese talked about the superiority of his country it could also mean his culture, his ethnicity or his language, as all those are pretty much uniform in Japan. not true of america, so it is different in that sense.

 

[gopunk]

nobody (that i know) says americans are smarter, prettier, etc.

 

[Red Dawn]

well for one thing, w/ most countries, Nation = Race. more or less.

In the US being a Nationalist isn't anything at all like being a Racist. An American comes in all races.

 

[Red Dawn]

nobody (that i know) says americans are smarter, prettier, etc

We are cleaner and usually smell better j/k

 

[ElFenix]

the US is a mult-national state, so patriotism isn't nationalism, per se. plus its not hate directed at a specific group.

 

[Fatt]

America is the WORST country!

Except for all the other countries.

And we do smell better than anyone else. Especially the French.

 

[PlatinumGold]

the US is a mult-national state, so patriotism isn't nationalism, per se. plus its not hate directed at a specific group.

Can you please explain how the US could possibly be Multi-National???

The US is multi-Ethnical, not national. hence, an american can be a nationalist, but not a racist.

 

[darren]

Good point, Bluefront.

Platinum gold has a point there as well - that there are different races in this country.

at the end of the matter though - i still agree that prevalent american nationalism that proclaims america's superiority in culture is rampant and not a good thing. it comes from and breeds ignorance and arrogance.

my two cents.

 

[FeathersMcGraw]

Originally posted by: Bluefront
Nationalism is exibited frequently on this forum....and tolerated. You won't get banned if you say the USA is the best country....democracy is the best form of government.....in order to protect our interests we have the right to attack anyone....etc.

Racism is almost the same.....but not tolerated here, by the mods or by most of the posters. If you say my race (fill in your brand) is the best race......we do the best things....everyone else is inferior....we're smarter, prettier.....etc, you probably will have your thread locked, and you might get banned.

What's the difference? Seems to me a natural thing to think your own country is the best, your own race is the best. It's very difficult to separate the two ideas, from the way I look at it.

Any yet the one idea is tolerated the other not. What gives?

The nationalist tenets that you use as examples are debatable, though. Americans say they have a great country because they are accorded a wide number of governmentally mandated personal freedoms. Democracy is government which theoretically offers the common man channels to establish dialog on his political issues (even though it's really a republican form of government using elected officials rather than direct representation, but that's another discussion). People can have argue the philosophical merits of those viewpoints and whether freedom == moral decline or whether our politicians are more or less crooked than their European (or Asian or Australian or wherever) counterparts.

Racism, however, asserts superiority of one ethnicity over another on the basis of genetics alone. There's no rational debate in that -- it's an assertion without any logical recourse.

The difference is what you're using as a basis for reasoning. If I say America is great because we're a capitalist, democratic, God-fearing society, then you can call me on the assumptions that capitalism, democracy, and Christian values are superior ones. If I say we're better because we're white, or black, or Asian, or whatever, there's no dialogue involved, so there's pretty much no point in letting the discussion degenerate into the inevitable flamewar.

 

[luv2chill]

Originally posted by: darren
Good point, Bluefront.

Platinum gold has a point there as well - that there are different races in this country.

at the end of the matter though - i still agree that prevalent american nationalism that proclaims america's superiority in culture is rampant and not a good thing. it comes from and breeds ignorance and arrogance.

my two cents.

Agreed 100%. It's totally counterproductive. It's one thing to take pride in your locale (city/town, county, state/province, country), but quite another to claim superiority of one locale to another. That was one of the best lessons I took away from my trip to Europe a couple of years ago. Visited eight countries...each was unique. Individual elements might be more/less advanced from place to place, but nothing about any country as a whole or its citizens was any more or less superior than the others.

Pride in America goes off the deep end frequently.

l2c

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

the US is a mult-national state, so patriotism isn't nationalism, per se. plus its not hate directed at a specific group.

Can you please explain how the US could possibly be Multi-National???

The US is multi-Ethnical, not national. hence, an american can be a nationalist, but not a racist.

this is what i'm going by: A people who share common customs, origins, history, and frequently language; a nationality:
by that measure i'm pretty sure we're more multi-national than austria-hungary was at its height.

 

[PlatinumGold]

this is what i'm going by: A people who share common customs, origins, history, and frequently language; a nationality:
by that measure i'm pretty sure we're more multi-national than austria-hungary was at its height.

MB you need help with the definitions.

National = Political

Ethnical = Racial.

We have RACIAL diversity in the US, multi-ethnic, multi-racial but we have one Political Unit, one nation. so it is NOT multi-national.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

this is what i'm going by: A people who share common customs, origins, history, and frequently language; a nationality:
by that measure i'm pretty sure we're more multi-national than austria-hungary was at its height.

MB you need help with the definitions.

National = Political

Ethnical = Racial.

We have RACIAL diversity in the US, multi-ethnic, multi-racial but we have one Political Unit, one nation. so it is NOT multi-national.

i got it from dictionary.com... i'm using the more classic definition, not the later US definition.

 

[CPA]

Originally posted by: luv2chill

Originally posted by: darren
Good point, Bluefront.

Platinum gold has a point there as well - that there are different races in this country.

at the end of the matter though - i still agree that prevalent american nationalism that proclaims america's superiority in culture is rampant and not a good thing. it comes from and breeds ignorance and arrogance.

my two cents.

Agreed 100%. It's totally counterproductive. It's one thing to take pride in your locale (city/town, county, state/province, country), but quite another to claim superiority of one locale to another. That was one of the best lessons I took away from my trip to Europe a couple of years ago. Visited eight countries...each was unique. Individual elements might be more/less advanced from place to place, but nothing about any country as a whole or its citizens was any more or less superior than the others.

Pride in America goes off the deep end frequently.

l2c

Call it ignorance, arrogance or homerism, but America is better than any European country, especially France.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: CPA


Call it ignorance, arrogance or homerism, but America is better than any European country, especially France.

if only because they put mayo on fries! :disgust:

 

[PlatinumGold]

Nationalism is exibited frequently on this forum....and tolerated. You won't get banned if you say the USA is the best country....democracy is the best form of government.....in order to protect our interests we have the right to attack anyone....etc.

hehehehe

elfenix

if you just use whatever definition you please without informing anyone that you have changed definitions than communication becomes difficult. look at quote above, the original poster clearly indicated that nationalism as he intented it's use was referring to the political country. not they custom, language or culture. he implies that race covers the custom, language or culture.

now you go and change the definition w/o reason. that makes it difficult. ok, then using ur definition the original poster had NOTHING to say whatsoever, but OBVIOUSLY that wasn't his intent.

also, OF COURSE America changed the definition of what nationalism means, AMERICA redefined COUNTRY. Not only is it multi-racial, but it's also a federation of STATES = nation. States in the US are no longer what they used to be, the civil war really changed that a lot, but at one point in US history STATE = Nation. The US is a work in progress and in order to account for the US many so called traditional definitions have to change.

 

[aphex]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: CPA


Call it ignorance, arrogance or homerism, but America is better than any European country, especially France.

if only because they put mayo on fries! :disgust:

They have converted me.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Nationalism is exibited frequently on this forum....and tolerated. You won't get banned if you say the USA is the best country....democracy is the best form of government.....in order to protect our interests we have the right to attack anyone....etc.

hehehehe

elfenix

if you just use whatever definition you please without informing anyone that you have changed definitions than communication becomes difficult. look at quote above, the original poster clearly indicated that nationalism as he intented it's use was referring to the political country. not they custom, language or culture. he implies that race covers the custom, language or culture.

now you go and change the definition w/o reason. that makes it difficult. ok, then using ur definition the original poster had NOTHING to say whatsoever, but OBVIOUSLY that wasn't his intent.

also, OF COURSE America changed the definition of what nationalism means, AMERICA redefined COUNTRY. Not only is it multi-racial, but it's also a federation of STATES = nation. States in the US are no longer what they used to be, the civil war really changed that a lot, but at one point in US history STATE = Nation. The US is a work in progress and in order to account for the US many so called traditional definitions have to change.

well considering nationalism became a recognizable phenomenon after the founding of the US (the culture of the antebellum south is considered proto-nationalism, btw), the US didn't force the change, its just that ignorant rednecks saw that patriotism = nationalism in europe, so they decided that they'd bastardize the true definition and use nationalism interchangably with patriotism.

 

[athithi]

Originally posted by: Bluefront
Nationalism is exibited frequently on this forum....and tolerated. You won't get banned if you say the USA is the best country....democracy is the best form of government.....in order to protect our interests we have the right to attack anyone....etc.

Racism is almost the same.....but not tolerated here, by the mods or by most of the posters. If you say my race (fill in your brand) is the best race......we do the best things....everyone else is inferior....we're smarter, prettier.....etc, you probably will have your thread locked, and you might get banned.

What's the difference? Seems to me a natural thing to think your own country is the best, your own race is the best. It's very difficult to separate the two ideas, from the way I look at it.

Any yet the one idea is tolerated the other not. What gives?

A nation is a man-made distinction. Race is natural or determined by God, depending on your beliefs. Nationalism is the expression of pride in the achievement of man. Racism is the expression of pride in something in which one had absolutely no choice whatsoever. What is a racist so proud of? That two people belonging to the same race copulated and reproduced? Bah!

 

[HermitGuy]

On nationalism vs Racism, I would have to say that like many concepts nationalism can either have positive or negative connotations depending how it's used, racism on the other hand has no positive connotations whatsoever.

Now I know that a lot of people don't like simple explanations, but it really is that simple.

He who dares not offend cannot be honest. -- Thomas Paine

 

[luv2chill]

Originally posted by: CPA

Originally posted by: luv2chill

Originally posted by: darren
Good point, Bluefront.

Platinum gold has a point there as well - that there are different races in this country.

at the end of the matter though - i still agree that prevalent american nationalism that proclaims america's superiority in culture is rampant and not a good thing. it comes from and breeds ignorance and arrogance.

my two cents.

Agreed 100%. It's totally counterproductive. It's one thing to take pride in your locale (city/town, county, state/province, country), but quite another to claim superiority of one locale to another. That was one of the best lessons I took away from my trip to Europe a couple of years ago. Visited eight countries...each was unique. Individual elements might be more/less advanced from place to place, but nothing about any country as a whole or its citizens was any more or less superior than the others.

Pride in America goes off the deep end frequently.

l2c

Call it ignorance, arrogance or homerism, but America is better than any European country, especially France.

What I call it is YOUR opinion... that's all it is. And you know what they say about opinions...

l2c

 

[Lunarcade]

Originally posted by: athithi
A nation is a man-made distinction. Race is natural or determined by God, depending on your beliefs. Nationalism is the expression of pride in the achievement of man. Racism is the expression of pride in something in which one had absolutely no choice whatsoever. What is a racist so proud of? That two people belonging to the same race copulated and reproduced? Bah!

Very nice IMO.

 

[Skyclad1uhm1]

Originally posted by: aphexII

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: CPA


Call it ignorance, arrogance or homerism, but America is better than any European country, especially France.

if only because they put mayo on fries! :disgust:

They have converted me.

Tried 'patatje oorlog' yet?

P.S. French fries are actually Belgian. So even less good stuff comes from France than you thought.

P.P.S. At least we don't put peanut butter in everything edible.

 

USA! USA! USA! USA!