National ID card program

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
7
76
I thought that this got killed off in congress, but I guess I need to watch things a bit closer.

This reminds me too much of the movies where your walking on the street and approached by the guards "can I see your papers ?"

23.1 billion for id cards.
Sheesh no wonder we don't have money in the budget.



http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITI.../16/real.id/index.html
The act, signed in 2005 as part of an emergency military spending and tsunami relief bill, aims to weave driver's licenses and state ID cards into a sort of national identification system by May 2008. The law sets baseline criteria for how driver's licenses will be issued and what information they must contain.

The Department of Homeland Security insists Real ID is an essential weapon in the war on terror, but privacy and civil liberties watchdogs are calling the initiative an overly intrusive measure that smacks of Big Brother.

More than half the nation's state legislatures have passed or proposed legislation denouncing the plan, and some have penned bills expressly forbidding compliance.

Several states have begun making arrangements for the new requirements -- four have passed legislation applauding the measure -- but even they may have trouble meeting the act's deadline.

The cards would be mandatory for all "federal purposes," which include boarding an airplane or walking into a federal building, nuclear facility or national park, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff told the National Conference of State Legislatures last week. Citizens in states that don't comply with the new rules will have to use passports for federal purposes.

"For terrorists, travel documents are like weapons," Chertoff said. "We do have a right and an obligation to see that those licenses reflect the identity of the person who's presenting it."

Chertoff said the Real ID program is essential to national security because there are presently 8,000 types of identification accepted to enter the United States.

"It is simply unreasonable to expect our border inspectors to be able to detect forgeries on documents that range from baptismal certificates from small towns in Texas to cards that purport to reflect citizenship privileges in a province somewhere in Canada," he said.
More information

* Details of Real ID Act
* NCSL's 'Countdown to Real ID'
* Department of Homeland Security FAQs
* ACLU's 'Real nightmare'

Chertoff attended the conference in Boston, Massachusetts, in part to allay states' concerns, but he had few concrete answers on funding.

The Department of Homeland Security, which estimates state and federal costs could reach $23.1 billion over 10 years, is looking for ways to lessen the burden on states, he said. On the recent congressional front, however, Chertoff could point only to an amendment killed in the Senate last month that would've provided $300 million for the program.

"There's going to be an irreducible expense that falls on you, and that's part of the shared responsibility," Chertoff told the state legislators.

Bill Walsh, senior legal fellow for the Heritage Foundation, a Washington-based conservative think tank that supports the Real ID Act, said states shouldn't be pushing for more federal dollars because, ultimately, that will mean more federal oversight -- and many complaints about cost coincide with complaints about the federal government overstepping its bounds.

"They are only being asked to do what they should've already done to protect their citizens," Walsh said, blaming arcane software and policies at state motor vehicle departments for what he called "a tremendous trafficking in state driver's licenses."

The NCSL is calling Real ID an "unfunded mandate" that could cost states up to $14 billion over the next decade, but for which only $40 million has been federally approved. The group is demanding Congress pony up $1 billion for startup costs by year's end or scrap the proposal altogether.

Everyone must visit DMV by 2013

The Real ID Act repealed a provision in the 9/11 Commission Implementation Act calling for state and federal officials to examine security standards for driver's licenses.

It called instead for states to begin issuing new federal licenses, lasting no longer than eight years, by May 11, 2008, unless they are granted an extension.

It also requires all 245 million license and state ID holders to visit their local departments of motor vehicles and apply for a Real ID by 2013. Applicants must bring a photo ID, birth certificate, proof of Social Security number and proof of residence, and states must maintain and protect massive databases housing the information.

NCSL spokesman Bill Wyatt said the requirements are "almost physically impossible." States will have to build new facilities, secure those facilities and shell out for additional equipment and personnel.

Those costs are going to fall back on the American taxpayer, he said. It might be in the form of a new transportation, motor vehicle or gasoline tax. Or you might find it tacked on to your next state tax bill. In Texas, Wyatt said, one official told him that without federal funding, the Lone Star State might have to charge its citizens more than $100 for a license.

"We kind of feel like the way they went about this is backwards," Wyatt said, explaining that states would have appreciated more input into the process. "Each state has its own unique challenges and these are best addressed at state levels. A one-size-fits-all approach to driver's licenses doesn't necessarily work."

Many states have revolted. The governors of Idaho, Maine, Montana, New Hampshire, Oklahoma, South Carolina and Washington have signed bills refusing to comply with the act. Six others have passed bills and/or resolutions expressing opposition, and 15 have similar legislation pending.

Though the NCSL says most states' opposition stems from the lack of funding, some states cited other reasons for resisting the initiative.

New Hampshire passed a House bill opposing the program and calling Real ID "contrary and repugnant" to the state and federal constitutions. A Colorado House resolution dismissed Real ID by expressing support for the war on terror but "not at the expense of essential civil rights and liberties of citizens of this country."

Privacy concerns raised

Colorado and New Hampshire lawmakers are not alone. Groups like the American Civil Liberties Union and Electronic Frontier Foundation say the IDs and supporting databases -- which Chertoff said would eventually be federally interconnected -- will infringe on privacy.

EFF says on its Web site that the information in the databases will lay the groundwork for "a wide range of surveillance activities" by government and businesses that "will be able to easily read your private information" because of the bar code required on each card.

The databases will provide a one-stop shop for identity thieves, adds the ACLU on its Web site, and the U.S. "surveillance society" and private sector will have access to the system "for the routine tracking, monitoring and regulation of individuals' movements and activities."

The civil liberties watchdog dubs the IDs "internal passports" and claims it wouldn't be long before office buildings, gas stations, toll booths, subways and buses begin accessing the system.

But Chertoff told legislators last week that DHS has no intention of creating a federal database, and Walsh, of the Heritage Foundation, said the ACLU's allegations are disingenuous.

States will be permitted to share data only when validating someone's identity, Walsh said.

"The federal government wouldn't have any greater access to driver's license information than it does today," Walsh said.

States have the right to refuse to comply with the program, he said, and they also have the right to continue issuing IDs and driver's licenses that don't meet Real ID requirements.

But, Walsh said, "any state that's refusing to implement this key recommendation by the 9/11 Commission, and whose state driver's licenses are as a result used in another terrorist attack, should be held responsible."

State reaction to Real ID has not been all negative. Four states have passed bills or resolutions expressing approval for the program, and 13 states have similar legislation pending (Several states have pending pieces of legislation both applauding and opposing Real ID).
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
66,260
14,689
146
While I'm a bit leery of this, having a National ID card might not be such a bad thing...IF they can make them relatively tamper-proof and extremely difficult to forge. As it is, driver's licenses and social security cards are almost worthless as ID with the plethora of forged ones in circulation in the illegal immigrant communities.
But yeah, the scenario you mentioned does smack of abuse potential by the authorities. Personally, I have no problem with laws REQUIRING you to show valid ID when asked by law enforcement however. "Ve vant to see your papers!"
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
80,287
17,081
136
Originally posted by: BoomerD
While I'm a bit leery of this, having a National ID card might not be such a bad thing...IF they can make them relatively tamper-proof and extremely difficult to forge. As it is, driver's licenses and social security cards are almost worthless as ID with the plethora of forged ones in circulation in the illegal immigrant communities.
Thats the problem.

There is nothing that cant be forged, eventually. This will not make us safer, it will just give business to the black market. And if it really is federal and EVERYONE is supposed to have one, it will make the business that much more lucrative. I honestly think all this will do is cause Americans to lose a great deal of freedom and privacy and wont actually make us safer.
Which is exactly like everything else to government has come up with over the past few years. Less freedom, no real safety, only a percieved safety. And it will be a real pain to get it undone.

 

StepUp

Senior member
May 12, 2004
651
0
76
It will certainly make the first to crack it very wealthy. One-size fits all, not 50 different states to account for.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
A tamper proof national ID card would solve one and only one problem---namely illegal immigration but then we would also have to 100% prosecute anyone who hired illegal immigrants which will not happen either. And its why the immigration bills failed. The existing system with all its exploitable loopholes is too profitable to tamper with. And any reform would cost lost profits.

Which then leaves no earthly reason to allow another big brother is watching us card.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
IMO, national ID cards are actually a good idea - especially if they include a biometric ID method beyond a simple photograph.
 

rpanic

Golden Member
Dec 1, 2006
1,896
7
81
I am sure its going to happen eventually sooner or later, it sounds like a good ideal. And it might be abused in some way like everything else.

If the ACLU don?t like it must be good. ;)
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Everyone "has" to have a social security card anyway.
I am sure its going to happen eventually sooner or later
Yep, it's inevitable.

The problem with a social security card is that it is not tamper proof. As it is, by itself, a soc is not quite enough to commit ID theft. But given a Soc, date of birth, and mother maiden name,
just those three pieces of information will yield all other needed answers on line.

 

manowar821

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2007
6,063
0
0
Originally posted by: palehorse74
IMO, national ID cards are actually a good idea - especially if they include a biometric ID method beyond a simple photograph.

I'm surprised to hear you say that, of all people!

Seriously, we heard about this years ago... It's only a matter of time.

If it's forced on us (I don't know how good of a chance that is) then I suggest that we all pick a date and burn ours in front of our state or nation's capital, together. The idea of a national ID card is disgusting.

As it has been said: "You don't have to be a racist, to be a nazi fcuk, your mindless nationalism gives you credentials enough"

If you don't see what's wrong with the very thought of having papers or a national ID card, then you truly don't believe in freedom.
 

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
14
76
I don't see how this won't be forged as well - even with a biometric - so I see it as just another way to more easily gather information on us.

I would definitely attend some kind of rally to burn a card like this.

Of course I also know its inevitable - but it doesn't mean that I wouldn't oppose it at all
 

jackschmittusa

Diamond Member
Apr 16, 2003
5,972
1
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Anybody that thinks this will not get out of hand if it goes into effect is wearing rose-colored glasses.

Once everyone has an ID that contains your personal info in a universal format, everyone will want to scan it. Innumerable databases will spring up. It will also be easier than ever to combine databases as well since the data structure is the same everywhere.

There will even be personal readers attached to your computer. You may even need to scan your card to read a newspaper online as they will claim to collect data "for demographic purposes only". Access porn? Scan your card for proof of age thank you.

Employers and insurers can access your credit report now, how about if they can gain access to all of your medical records, the amount of booze you bought last year, all legal proceedings you have been involved with, etc.. Even if states pass laws saying they can't do it without your permission, it will be made a condition of employment or issuance of a policy.

What happens if you are a passenger in a car that gets stopped, and didn't bring your wallet? You will be considered a subject of interest immediately. I can see some Congressman proclaiming that every citizen should be proud to display proof of his citizenship in this great country whenever asked. Failure to do so would be unpatriotic at best, suspicious at worst.

I have nothing to hide, but I do close my curtains sometimes.
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
Originally posted by: Modelworks

This reminds me too much of the movies where your walking on the street and approached by the guards "can I see your papers ?"

This happens all the time in many countries. It's not something that only happens in movies. It's actually one of the reasons why widespread riots spread across France in 2005. Children are routinely harassed by the police to produce identity papers.
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
7
76
This wouldn't be bad if it was restricted just to places like military bases, fbi headquarters, etc.
But I can see them starting with airports then slowly adding to that list.
National parks ? yeah, thats a big terrorist target. I can see them know "We can pollute the water, kill the bears, that will show the americans!"

My fear is it will move to things like libraries, colleges, hospitals, anything that gets federal funding.
Imagine going to visit a sick friend in the hospital and having to show your papers.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: palehorse74
IMO, national ID cards are actually a good idea - especially if they include a biometric ID method beyond a simple photograph.

A good idea for what...what problem are we solving here? There is something about authoritarian sounding measures that produces unwavering support among certain types of people, but rarely does anyone stop and think about the reason behind the measure.

Chertoff is being (deliberately?) obtuse, if the problem is the number of forms of identity being allowed as valid for entry into the United States, how is a national ID going to solve that? While we can eliminate the drivers licenses from every state, that leaves MOST forms of valid ID still out there...surely we can't force foreigners to use our national ID. And in any case, is this really the best way we could be spending the billions of dollars this is going to cost? It's easy to distract people by waving cool sounding buzzwords like "biometrics" at them, but I have seen nothing to suggest anyone looked at a threat model and decided THIS was a good use of money. It's security theater, and expensive security theater at that.
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
Originally posted by: manowar821
Originally posted by: palehorse74
IMO, national ID cards are actually a good idea - especially if they include a biometric ID method beyond a simple photograph.

I'm surprised to hear you say that, of all people!

Seriously, we heard about this years ago... It's only a matter of time.

If it's forced on us (I don't know how good of a chance that is) then I suggest that we all pick a date and burn ours in front of our state or nation's capital, together. The idea of a national ID card is disgusting.

As it has been said: "You don't have to be a racist, to be a nazi fcuk, your mindless nationalism gives you credentials enough"

If you don't see what's wrong with the very thought of having papers or a national ID card, then you truly don't believe in freedom.


Thank you.. I envisioned Ghandi burning his papers and being beaten for it and starting a revolution..

This national id card is total bullshit..

The next thing they will do is force you to use this in combination with every single purchase you ever make since they are trying to remove cash from our society
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Having to prove your identity everywhere you go is not something a free man does. It's something a slave does.
 

Pabster

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
16,986
1
0
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Having to prove your identity everywhere you go is not something a free man does. It's something a slave does.

You have a problem with providing proper identification for boarding an airplane, entering a nuclear facility, et al?

Perhaps you've missed the last 6 years...

And I agree that biometrics are necessary. A simple card just isn't good enough.
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Having to prove your identity everywhere you go is not something a free man does. It's something a slave does.

You have a problem with providing proper identification for boarding an airplane, entering a nuclear facility, et al?

Perhaps you've missed the last 6 years...

And I agree that biometrics are necessary. A simple card just isn't good enough.

And it is you who is foolish enough to believe that those will be the only places it is required.. whatever.. :roll:
 

Pabster

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
16,986
1
0
Originally posted by: dahunan
And it is you who is foolish enough to believe that those will be the only places it is required.. whatever.. :roll:

Ah, yes, because you have the crystal ball.

Forgive me :laugh:

Of course it would be required elsewhere. Airplanes and Nuclear Facilities are hardly the only places where security is of utmost importance.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: dahunan
And it is you who is foolish enough to believe that those will be the only places it is required.. whatever.. :roll:

Ah, yes, because you have the crystal ball.

Forgive me :laugh:

Of course it would be required elsewhere. Airplanes and Nuclear Facilities are hardly the only places where security is of utmost importance.

The social security card was originally just that, a card that was used to distribute social security. Now it's required for just about everything. Either you're young and naive, or willfully stupid to think that a national ID won't quickly become your traveling papers.

As for what's happened in the past 6 years? Nothing has happened. Six years and not one terrorist attack. So why the sudden need for a national ID? Don't forget that the terrorists all had valid foreign IDs. A national ID will do nothing to promote any kind of "safety."
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Having to prove your identity everywhere you go is not something a free man does. It's something a slave does.

:thumbsup:
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: BoberFett
The social security card was originally just that, a card that was used to distribute social security. Now it's required for just about everything.
it is?! besides filling out the forms for a new job, i can't remember the last time I was ever asked for my SS card.