National debt exceeds $13,000,000,000,000.00

[CycloWizard]

0.8 trillion out of 13 trillion, 1/3 of which was tax cuts that you conservatives support even when it consists of debt... Compare that fraction of the total debt to would have happened without a stimulus. Then compare to what would have happened if Obama somehow took the Bush deficit down to 0. Do you get it now?

Hell, even George W. Bush understands the basic concept of stimulus, hence we had a Bush stimulus...

Bush's policies just dug a deeper hole under the propped up economy. As you stated, this all started while he was doing exactly what Obama is doing now, except Obama is using a steam shovel whereas Bush was using a garden spade to dig under the foundation. Do you get it now?

 

[TwinsenTacquito]

Because we didn't pull 0.8 trillion out of the bank to pay for it. It's financed. We pulled a 0.8 trillion loan out. We will pay it back slowly. It will cost far more than a trillion dollars.

BUT IGNORE THAT, THAT'S ON A TEABAGGERS SIGN!

 

[TwinsenTacquito]

Bush's policies just dug a deeper hole under the propped up economy. As you stated, this all started while he was doing exactly what Obama is doing now, except Obama is using a steam shovel whereas Bush was using a garden spade to dig under the foundation. Do you get it now?

It actually started under Clinton with the sub prime entitlement loans. Bush made it worse. Obama is making it worse still. Our leaders are legendary.

 

[nick1985]

Because we didn't pull 0.8 trillion out of the bank to pay for it. It's financed. We pulled a 0.8 trillion loan out. We will pay it back slowly. It will cost far more than a trillion dollars.

BUT IGNORE THAT, THAT'S ON A TEABAGGERS SIGN!

There is no interest on loans. Everyone knows this

 

[Throckmorton]

Because we didn't pull 0.8 trillion out of the bank to pay for it. It's financed. We pulled a 0.8 trillion loan out. We will pay it back slowly. It will cost far more than a trillion dollars.

BUT IGNORE THAT, THAT'S ON A TEABAGGERS SIGN!

And how is that different from any other deficit spending? Are you going to demand the interest be added in to every mention of the wars, the farm bill, etc?

How about the cost if there's no stimulus and the economy plunges into a depression? What's the interest on soup lines and people loading up their jalopies to go to California to pick grapes?

 

[BoberFett]

There is no interest on loans. Everyone knows this

And if your loan is actually a GM bond, there's no principal either.

 

[Throckmorton]

There is no interest on loans. Everyone knows this

Still no intelligent response to the realities of economics I see.

 

[BoberFett]

And how is that different from any other deficit spending? Are you going to demand the interest be added in to every mention of the wars, the farm bill, etc?

Is it a part of the cost of the loan or not? Hell, lenders have to abide by laws which make them lay out their true APR based on compounded rates, fees, etc. because it's to "protect consumers." Why shouldn't the government have to do the same thing to protect taxpayers? If I'm paying for some government program (and trust me, I pay plenty in taxes) shouldn't I get to know the actual cost including interest? Why do "liberals" hate those tactics when used by business but applaud government when it defrauds the citizenry? You sure are a hypocritical lot.

 

[Throckmorton]

I don't see how you would even calculate that... The total interest depends on the amount of time, and then you have to factor in inflation.

Assuming it's 1.3-1.5 billion like you said, OK, add your arbitrary interest number to the rest of the national debt, and pretend my post has those numbers.

 

[Kappo]

I don't see how you would even calculate that... The total interest depends on the amount of time, and then you have to factor in inflation.

Assuming it's 1.3-1.5 billion like you said, OK, add your arbitrary interest number to the rest of the national debt, and pretend my post has those numbers.

Do you know what a bond rating is? Do you know what "GWB spent like a maniac and Obama makes him look like my cheapass bean counting budget auditors at work" means? Do you know what hyperinflation is?

Pointing a finger at someone else and saying "they did it first!" does not make it magically correct. You want to spend MORE money on welfare, and think deficit spending is the way to do it. Great. Idea.

 

[Throckmorton]

Do you know what a bond rating is? Do you know what "GWB spent like a maniac and Obama makes him look like my cheapass bean counting budget auditors at work" means? Do you know what hyperinflation is?

Pointing a finger at someone else and saying "they did it first!" does not make it magically correct. You want to spend MORE money on welfare, and think deficit spending is the way to do it. Great. Idea.

Do you not understand what stimulus is? And can you not fathom the simple algebra that makes it clear that GWB isn't like a cheapass bean counting auditor in comparison to Obama but simply had the benefit of much higher revenue while not passing the necessary stimulus himself?

As for the hyperinflation bogie man... http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/18/stagflation-versus-hyperinflation/

 

[Throckmorton]

How about looking at actual spending numbers and revenue numbers...

 

[Throckmorton]

Here's a graph that even better illustrates that the total spending has only veered slightly above the existing trend, which it should for the sake of stimulus, while revenue has fallen. The red area showing deficit has grown a LOT, but you can clearly see how much of that is because of revenue loss.

 

[Kappo]

Do you not understand what stimulus is? And can you not fathom the simple algebra that makes it clear that GWB isn't like a cheapass bean counting auditor in comparison to Obama but simply had the benefit of much higher revenue while not passing the necessary stimulus himself?

As for the hyperinflation bogie man... http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/18/stagflation-versus-hyperinflation/

What is $2,600,000,000,000 dollars, Alex? The amount Obama has spent NOT on hookers (hookers are always a good investment).

Keep your deficit spending up. I already moved enough of my money to assets to be fine

He could get caught fucking a dead donkey while fondling a little boy and you would still want to Lewinsky him, not sure why I bother.

 

[Throckmorton]

Look at the graph Kappo. Is the top line continuing the trend really equivalent to fucking a dead donkey while fondling a little boy?

BTW note that I did bash Obama for coming out against Arizona's illegal immigration law.

 

[CycloWizard]

Look at the graph Kappo. Is the top line continuing the trend really equivalent to fucking a dead donkey while fondling a little boy?

BTW note that I did bash Obama for coming out against Arizona's illegal immigration law.

The blue and red lines are both trending upwards over the entire period shown on the figure. That is one problem. The other is that the difference between the red and blue is a lot bigger now, which is the other problem. Got it now?

 

[Throckmorton]

The blue and red lines are both trending upwards over the entire period shown on the figure. That is one problem. The other is that the difference between the red and blue is a lot bigger now, which is the other problem. Got it now?

Yes it is a problem that spending has gone up over the past 10 years. But what you are saying is you expect Obama to do the utterly wrong thing and reverse that trend during a recession, instead of continuing it so the economy doesn't plunge into a depression.

Note that even if Obama maintained the exactly same spending as Bush, the deficit would have skyrocketed anyway, and revenue would have dropped even further than it has.

 

[CycloWizard]

Yes it is a problem that spending has gone up over the past 10 years. But what you are saying is you expect Obama to do the utterly wrong thing and reverse that trend during a recession, instead of continuing it so the economy doesn't plunge into a depression.

It's wrong in your opinion, which is based on one half of an economic theory. Why do you think the private economy has essentially stagnated for the last decade? Could it possibly be related to the massive increases in tax revenue? How much blood can you get from the turnip?

Note that even if Obama maintained the exactly same spending as Bush, the deficit would have skyrocketed anyway, and revenue would have dropped even further than it has.

Maybe he should have cut spending to keep a balanced budget instead of spending money like a drunken idiot in Vegas. Ditto for Bush. The debt is now sufficiently large that it will never be paid off. It is over 90% of the entire GDP, which means we need an effective federal tax rate of 90% for an entire year to pay it off. Note that this number doesn't even include state and local taxes/debts/whatever else. When will you admit that you can't buy happiness for your citizens? When will you admit that government cannot be the answer to every problem?

 

[Zebo]

13 is unlucky, we need to get to 14T, stat!

lol

 

[Throckmorton]

It's wrong in your opinion, which is based on one half of an economic theory. Why do you think the private economy has essentially stagnated for the last decade? Could it possibly be related to the massive increases in tax revenue? How much blood can you get from the turnip?

Maybe he should have cut spending to keep a balanced budget instead of spending money like a drunken idiot in Vegas. Ditto for Bush. The debt is now sufficiently large that it will never be paid off. It is over 90% of the entire GDP, which means we need an effective federal tax rate of 90% for an entire year to pay it off. Note that this number doesn't even include state and local taxes/debts/whatever else. When will you admit that you can't buy happiness for your citizens? When will you admit that government cannot be the answer to every problem?

When will you admit that you don't even understand the concept of stimulus?

I can't believe you really think Obama should have cut Bush's deficit spending, plus more to match revenue loss. Wow. Did you fail macroeconomics or what? It's one thing to want less government spending in general during good times as part of your ideology, but you're just out of touch with reality.

 

[Zorkorist]

lol, Greece.

-John

 

[Zorkorist]

$1,300/ou., Gold.

Your daughter is worth .0001/ou Gold.

-John

 

[Zorkorist]

Your opinions are worth, .000001/ou Gold.

Your Free Speech, is worth, .0000001/ou Gold.

-John

 

[Zorkorist]

Spend, and live prosperously.

-John

 

[Zorkorist]

13 Trillion Dollars.

-John