National Academy of Sciences study estimates impacts of climate change

[monovillage]

Lord Kelvin was right. When they actually measure sea level rise they find it hasn't accelerated. When they measure Antarctic ice extent it's at the highest level since satellite measurements started in 1979 and Arctic ice extent is higher then it was in 2007.

" Originally Posted by Lord Kelvin
When you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meager and unsatisfactory kind: it may be the beginning of knowledge, but you have scarcely, in your thoughts, advanced to the stage of science."

Thank you Godless Astronomer for bringing science into this discussion.

 

[Darwin333]

If you don't do it, someone else will and they'll reap the benefits. Just like how China has become a World Leader in Solar Panel technology. Don't snooze, you'll lose.

They make a ton of solar panels but they aren't necessarily the leader in "solar panel tech". The vast majority of solar panel manufacturers are not Chinese companies, they simply have their panels made in China. The reason is quite simple, virtually no environmental regulation and cheap as hell labor equals a lower priced product.

We have a few companies making solar cells/panels here in the US but for the most part they aren't very cost effective. One company recently canceled a new plant they planned to build in the US and is now planning on building it in China. How exactly would you have not "snoozed" so that the US would be the "world leader in solar panel technology" given the current circumstances?

 

[Genx87]

Then why should you care if things Cost more? Looks like you've already given up and will be living in a Mud Hut any day now anyway. :shrug:

That doesnt answer his question. How will making manufacturing cost more help from keeping things like solar panel technology from going to China? You are telling us C&T will solve this but cant explain how making it more expensive accomplishes that.

 

[Darwin333]

Think about it. China is at the forefront of the next Technical Revolution. Their Pollution levels is a Strawman, their sending students to the US is a Strawman, "giving Government more money" is a total Strawman that completely misses the point of C&T for a Fail Political Talking Point.

Fact is, the US is losing a huge Industry to China and they will reap the rewards. Simply because the US has been dragging its' feet on the Issue.

You want to know where future Prosperity and Jobs are for the US? Probably not in Solar Panel Tech anymore and it will lose other opportunities if it continues to drag its' feet.

How is the pollution level a strawman when the pollution is from the very same industry you speak of and part of the reason that they are able to keep costs down and be the leading panel maker?

I have yet to see you make an argument on how we can make a product like a solar panel that would be cost competitive to the same product made in China.

The villagers said most obvious evidence of the pollution is the dumping, up to 10 times a day, of the liquid waste into what was formerly a grassy field. Eventually, the whole area turned white, like snow.

You can't just simply dismiss one of the reasons China is the so called leader of Solar if you want to have a serious discussion on the matter. The fact is that it is generally cheaper to dump your left over shit into a stream or field than it is to properly dispose of it, more so if it is a hazardous waste (and a lot of it is). That makes the cost of production cheaper which leads to a cheaper product. Cheaper products tend to sell better, especially in the solar market where a nickel a watt makes a huge difference.

 

[Jaskalas]

And what if we do nothing? Will you put the rest of us in time out? Send us to bed without supper?

Institute a tyrannical government.

 

[Darwin333]

Solar panels are NOWHERE NEAR viable at this point. To say its the next technical revolution is simply absurd. You realize how much of the earth would have to be covered with solar panels even if they were like 90% efficient? Lets just say the spotted owl crowd would not be happy.

Umm, not much?

Combined with existing power generation such as hydro, nuclear and you can throw in some wind not very much at all actually.

Hell, just the available roofspace on most families homes is more than enough to generate 1/3 to almost all of their yearly household energy consumption. Granted there are a lot of factors involved but even in some of the worst areas for solar you can greatly offset residential energy use with existing roof space. No batteries required, just simple grid-tied systems. Commercial properties have tons of unused roof space as well that could be offsetting their energy use or pumping electricity into the grid.

Bottom line: We can generate a fuckton of solar energy in the US using currently unused area on existing buildings. We would need a new grid (that we need anyway) in order to really take advantage of it but that wasn't your argument.

 

[Fear No Evil]

How much? Do you have even the faintest idea?

Yes, its been posted about before in this forum. Try doing a search.

 

[Fear No Evil]

Umm, not much?

Combined with existing power generation such as hydro, nuclear and you can throw in some wind not very much at all actually.

Hell, just the available roofspace on most families homes is more than enough to generate 1/3 to almost all of their yearly household energy consumption. Granted there are a lot of factors involved but even in some of the worst areas for solar you can greatly offset residential energy use with existing roof space. No batteries required, just simple grid-tied systems. Commercial properties have tons of unused roof space as well that could be offsetting their energy use or pumping electricity into the grid.

Bottom line: We can generate a fuckton of solar energy in the US using currently unused area on existing buildings. We would need a new grid (that we need anyway) in order to really take advantage of it but that wasn't your argument.

We could generate a fuck-ton of electricity in the United States for a hell of a lot cheaper if we put a personal nuclear reactor at everyone's house as well. Hell, if we could harness the power of unicorn farts we would have unlimited power.

 

[GodlessAstronomer]

We could generate a fuck-ton of electricity in the United States for a hell of a lot cheaper if we put a personal nuclear reactor at everyone's house as well. Hell, if we could harness the power of unicorn farts we would have unlimited power.

You're an honest-to-god retard.

 

[Darwin333]

We could generate a fuck-ton of electricity in the United States for a hell of a lot cheaper if we put a personal nuclear reactor at everyone's house as well. Hell, if we could harness the power of unicorn farts we would have unlimited power.

I can't help but notice that you didn't say a single thing about my rebuttal to your original issue with solar which was space required.

 

[ShawnD1]

You can't just simply dismiss one of the reasons China is the so called leader of Solar if you want to have a serious discussion on the matter. The fact is that it is generally cheaper to dump your left over shit into a stream or field than it is to properly dispose of it.

When I was working as a chemist, one thing that really blew me away was how throwing shit in the garbage was often more expensive than buying it. For example, methanol is a chemical cheaper than the bottled water you buy at the store. When throwing it out, it's treated as generic "organic waste" and they seem to handle it like it's toxic. It's delivered to the plant in tanker trucks, but it's disposed in barrels. Disposal really is super expensive.

 

[sandorski]

That doesnt answer his question. How will making manufacturing cost more help from keeping things like solar panel technology from going to China? You are telling us C&T will solve this but cant explain how making it more expensive accomplishes that.

That's not what he's asking. It's quite simple to keep an Industry In Country.

 

[sandorski]

How is the pollution level a strawman when the pollution is from the very same industry you speak of and part of the reason that they are able to keep costs down and be the leading panel maker?

I have yet to see you make an argument on how we can make a product like a solar panel that would be cost competitive to the same product made in China.



You can't just simply dismiss one of the reasons China is the so called leader of Solar if you want to have a serious discussion on the matter. The fact is that it is generally cheaper to dump your left over shit into a stream or field than it is to properly dispose of it, more so if it is a hazardous waste (and a lot of it is). That makes the cost of production cheaper which leads to a cheaper product. Cheaper products tend to sell better, especially in the solar market where a nickel a watt makes a huge difference.

Wrong. It's a Leader because they have poured Money into that Industry.

 

[IGBT]

you guys with all the solar junk on your roof, you do realize states and cities will eventually regulate and charge you a monthly surcharge based on kw generated. that's coming.

 

[mrjminer]

you guys with all the solar junk on your roof, you do realize states and cities will eventually regulate and charge you a monthly surcharge based on kw generated. that's coming.

I highly doubt that would ever come to be. Even if they tried to do it, solar is a completely independent source of power, so they wouldn't be able to justify any sort of oversight/regulatory fee in court. That would be like saying "the government is going to tax the energy your backup generator uses beyond the taxes included in purchasing gas."

However, I do think it's possible for the them to somehow tax power if you're feeding it into a public grid to get a credit on your non-solar energy used.

 

[IGBT]

I highly doubt that would ever come to be. Even if they tried to do it, solar is a completely independent source of power, so they wouldn't be able to justify any sort of oversight/regulatory fee in court. That would be like saying "the government is going to tax the energy your backup generator uses beyond the taxes included in purchasing gas."

However, I do think it's possible for the them to somehow tax power if you're feeding it into a public grid to get a credit on your non-solar energy used.

it's real easy to regulate. they will require you to install a meter and thus bill accordingly.

 

[Darwin333]

Wrong. It's a Leader because they have poured Money into that Industry.

Oh really? The lack of environmental regulations (Read: dump your leftover toxic shit in the nearest river/stream/field), cheaper than fuck labor, and cheap land has absolutely nothing to do with it?
Exactly how much money have they "poured" into private manufacturing plants? Some states you can get solar installed for 20 cents on the dollar (a $50K system will cost you $10K after state/fed credits and rebates), would you consider that "pouring" money into the solar industry or are you just advocating giving all of the money to big corporations? How much money have they "poured" into just about every other consumer product that can be made overseas and shipped here?

The solar manufacturing market is no different than the clothing manufacturers, they make their shit where it is cheapest to make it and then sell it where it is the most profitable. The biggest reasons it is cheaper to make shit in China is not the government pouring money into it. They might be building infrastructure to accommodate the plants but we already have that, it is the other stuff that makes it so attractive to make whatever it is you need made there.

 

[sandorski]

Oh really? The lack of environmental regulations (Read: dump your leftover toxic shit in the nearest river/stream/field), cheaper than fuck labor, and cheap land has absolutely nothing to do with it?
Exactly how much money have they "poured" into private manufacturing plants? Some states you can get solar installed for 20 cents on the dollar (a $50K system will cost you $10K after state/fed credits and rebates), would you consider that "pouring" money into the solar industry or are you just advocating giving all of the money to big corporations? How much money have they "poured" into just about every other consumer product that can be made overseas and shipped here?

The solar manufacturing market is no different than the clothing manufacturers, they make their shit where it is cheapest to make it and then sell it where it is the most profitable. The biggest reasons it is cheaper to make shit in China is not the government pouring money into it. They might be building infrastructure to accommodate the plants but we already have that, it is the other stuff that makes it so attractive to make whatever it is you need made there.

They have poured enough into it to become a World Leader. Again, not Multi-National imported Manufacturing, but Chinese Born, Funded, and Based Top to bottom Leader.

 

[CallMeJoe]

I highly doubt that would ever come to be. Even if they tried to do it, solar is a completely independent source of power, so they wouldn't be able to justify any sort of oversight/regulatory fee in court. That would be like saying "the government is going to tax the energy your backup generator uses beyond the taxes included in purchasing gas."
However, I do think it's possible for the them to somehow tax power if you're feeding it into a public grid to get a credit on your non-solar energy used.

Some of our local cities are taxing residences and businesses on storm runoff. If they'll tax the rain, what's to keep them from taxing the sun?

 

[Darwin333]

you guys with all the solar junk on your roof, you do realize states and cities will eventually regulate and charge you a monthly surcharge based on kw generated. that's coming.

Oh please do elaborate. I only ask because I find it kinda odd seeing that most cities are exempting that "solar junk" that drastically increases your homes value (and subsidized by the feds and most states, so in a lot of states its an instant "win") from property taxes.

Seems to me that would be the easiest way to tax that "solar junk".

OTOH, they are getting closer to passing a cap and trade type of bill that will put a "surcharge" on your electric bill a lot sooner.

 

[Darwin333]

They have poured enough into it to become a World Leader. Again, not Multi-National imported Manufacturing, but Chinese Born, Funded, and Based Top to bottom Leader.

Mind being a bit more specific?

 

[Darwin333]

it's real easy to regulate. they will require you to install a meter and thus bill accordingly.

Oh, I get it now! All these state, local and federal incentives to install solar are really just a big scam. They pay most of the tab for you to install it and then they develop and buy new meters (after just forcing the energy companies to install new meters) so that they can tax you on it...... instead of just including the increased value to your home in your property tax.

Makes perfect sense.

 

[sandorski]

Mind being a bit more specific?

Link from a quick Google

Also shows the expected explosive Demand for Solar Panels. This Industry is going to make a shit tonne of $.

 

[IGBT]

Oh please do elaborate. I only ask because I find it kinda odd seeing that most cities are exempting that "solar junk" that drastically increases your homes value (and subsidized by the feds and most states, so in a lot of states its an instant "win") from property taxes.

Seems to me that would be the easiest way to tax that "solar junk".

OTOH, they are getting closer to passing a cap and trade type of bill that will put a "surcharge" on your electric bill a lot sooner.

They will go both directions with it. Your smoking dope if you think they will pass up a tax opportunity. Regulation and taxation will occur down the road just like internet taxes..all over the horizon.

 

[Darwin333]

They will go both directions with it. Your smoking dope if you think they will pass up a tax opportunity. Regulation and taxation will occur down the road just like internet taxes..all over the horizon.

It is already regulated and while I agree with you on the ".gov never passes up a good opportunity to tax your ass", the easiest way to do so is with your property tax assessment. Since I can put that "solar junk" on my roof for 20 cents on the dollar (thanks Uncle Sam) it is a better investment than anything I can find given equal risk, which is virtually none. I am seeing better returns than even extremely high risk investments and I can almost guarantee any tax they eventually put on it will be far less than the higher electrical rates that you will be paying as well as additional taxes on your electricity.

So even if they do what you say, which I doubt, I still win. Hell, you gotta try real hard and get real creative to come up with a scenario in which I could potentially "lose".