NART: Buddhism.

[dighn]

Originally posted by: LOLyourFace
let me take reincarnation for example: Christian belief explains everything for every actions and happenings. But it just feels hollow to me that Buddism deals with reincarnation but it offers no further view on how reincarnation is arranged, or what force drives it. It is just a phenonmena that just occurs by itself and is self-sustained? Also Budda was just a normal prince who reached enlightenment through sufferings and taught the proper way to live life. But where does reincarnation fit in? Did he merely discover the concept of reincarnation during enlightenment? did it exist before?

in Christianity it is God who decides where souls go correct?

speaking as an atheist:

Christianity: God -> imaginary entity that decides where your soul goes
Buddhism: reincarnation -> imaginary mechanism that decides where your soul goes

no big difference to me

equally fictional

 

[thirtythree]

Originally posted by: LOLyourFace
also buddhism doesn't seem to have any approach on who/what started life... could someone enlighten me?

I think we sort of answered this question but this should help: "Buddhist teachings expound no beginning and no end to one's existence or life. There is virtually no recognition of a first cause ? e.g. how does human existence first come about?" (number 18 here)

typo

 

[joohang]

Originally posted by: Deslocke
"The moral code within Buddhism is the precepts, of which the main five are: not to take the life of anything living..." Does that mean Buddhists don't hunt/eat meat? I guess it would make sense since they believe in reincarnation but I've never heard anything about this.

To fully understand Buddhism, one should study some Indian philosophy. Without understanding the general philosophical culture from which Buddhism originally developed, questions like what you just asked cannot be substantially answered.

I regularly meet with my friend who studies Buddhism and a professor of Korean philosophy in Korea University. When they start talking about Indian philosophy and Chinese Buddhism, they start to talk about some hardcore stuff. Unfortunately, my understanding of Buddhism is nowhere near them so I can't adequately explain why Buddhists don't eat meat.

 

[dighn]

Originally posted by: joohang

Originally posted by: dighn

Originally posted by: LOLyourFace

Originally posted by: dighn

Originally posted by: LOLyourFace

Originally posted by: joohang
In which aspect are you interested in?

im just curious how Buddism approaches on the beginnings of life. It seems like they offer no pespective on it. I'm a very detail-oriented guy and if I was raised a buddist, I would question what or who arranged the workings of reincarnation and etc...

utimately you are gonna have to take some things for granted. where did God come from? why is God so powerful? etc

at least christianity answers those questions in its own belief system: God does not come from anywhere, "I am, who am." He has existed before and exists forever. God is so powerful because he is God. duh. Of course it may not make sense but it offers it's only explanation that has some logics.. (full logics to me)

but all these systems of karma, incarnation etc is part of the buddhism belief system. imo it's not all that different from the concept of God in that they are both "just there"

of course i was raised as an atheist with a lot of exposure to buddhism so we might think a little differently.

but speaking as an atheist, they both require pure "faith" - you just have to believe it as it is.

Actually, many Buddhists use logic to prove that this world is empty. So in this sense, one may say that they do not really start off from any premises or assumptions.

hmm that's interesting but i'm not convinced, got any sources (just out of curiosity)?

 

[tweakmm]

Zen is my favorite form of Buddhism and the one that least resembles a traditional religion.

 

[LOLyourFace]

Originally posted by: dighn

Originally posted by: LOLyourFace
let me take reincarnation for example: Christian belief explains everything for every actions and happenings. But it just feels hollow to me that Buddism deals with reincarnation but it offers no further view on how reincarnation is arranged, or what force drives it. It is just a phenonmena that just occurs by itself and is self-sustained? Also Budda was just a normal prince who reached enlightenment through sufferings and taught the proper way to live life. But where does reincarnation fit in? Did he merely discover the concept of reincarnation during enlightenment? did it exist before?

in Christianity it is God who decides where souls go correct?

speaking as an atheist:

Christianity: God = imaginary force that decides where your soul goes
Buddhism: reincarnation = imaginary mechanism that decides where your soul goes

no big difference to me

equally fictional

nicely put. at this point, I think I can safely say that Christianity offers a more better detailed explanation of the world.

 

[tweakmm]

Originally posted by: LOLyourFace

nicely put. at this point, I think I can safely say that Christianity offers a more better detailed explanation of the world.

Too bad it's wrong

 

[joohang]

Originally posted by: LOLyourFace
let me take reincarnation for example: Christian belief explains everything for every actions and happenings. But it just feels hollow to me that Buddism deals with reincarnation but it offers no further view on how reincarnation is arranged, or what force drives it. It is just a phenonmena that just occurs by itself and is self-sustained? Also Budda was just a normal prince who reached enlightenment through sufferings and taught the proper way to live life. But where does reincarnation fit in? Did he merely discover the concept of reincarnation during enlightenment? did it exist before?

The answer to that depends.

First of all, it is very misleading to say/believe that Buddhism offers little explanation of their beliefs. Literature written on Buddhism is enormous and no human being could ever read and understand them all in a lifetime.

I wish I could answer your question but unfortunately my understanding is too shallow. My suggestion is that if you are really interested, talk to a professor of Buddhism in your local university. Or better yet, take a course.

But just to give a little twist to your questions: Why is it that you believe people are not reincarnated? For many Buddhists, it is strange that you believe that living things do not reincarnate.

 

[joohang]

Originally posted by: dighn

Originally posted by: joohang

Originally posted by: dighn

Originally posted by: LOLyourFace

Originally posted by: dighn

Originally posted by: LOLyourFace

Originally posted by: joohang
In which aspect are you interested in?

im just curious how Buddism approaches on the beginnings of life. It seems like they offer no pespective on it. I'm a very detail-oriented guy and if I was raised a buddist, I would question what or who arranged the workings of reincarnation and etc...

utimately you are gonna have to take some things for granted. where did God come from? why is God so powerful? etc

at least christianity answers those questions in its own belief system: God does not come from anywhere, "I am, who am." He has existed before and exists forever. God is so powerful because he is God. duh. Of course it may not make sense but it offers it's only explanation that has some logics.. (full logics to me)

but all these systems of karma, incarnation etc is part of the buddhism belief system. imo it's not all that different from the concept of God in that they are both "just there"

of course i was raised as an atheist with a lot of exposure to buddhism so we might think a little differently.

but speaking as an atheist, they both require pure "faith" - you just have to believe it as it is.

Actually, many Buddhists use logic to prove that this world is empty. So in this sense, one may say that they do not really start off from any premises or assumptions.

hmm that's interesting but i'm not convinced, got any sources (just out of curiosity)?

My Buddhist friend.

A little bit from Wing Tsit-chan, A Source Book of Chinese Philosophy. Look up the chapter on the Middle Doctrine school of Nagarjuna. Or look up some literature written on Nagarjuna.

I wish I could offer more but this is not my area.

Edit: Oops, fixed title.

 

[joohang]

Originally posted by: tweakmm
Zen is my favorite form of Buddhism and the one that least resembles a traditional religion.

That's because Zen makes sense because it makes no sense. And least resembles a religion because Zen destroys Zen itself.

 

[tweakmm]

Lolyourface
It sounds like you are searching, may I suggest looking inside for the answers instead of turning to a book or ancient teaching.

 

[tweakmm]

Originally posted by: LOLyourFace
could someone enlighten me?

 

[joohang]

Originally posted by: tweakmm
It sounds like you are searching, may I suggest looking inside for the answers instead of turning to a book or ancient teaching.

???

You talking to me?

 

[joohang]

Originally posted by: tweakmm

Originally posted by: LOLyourFace
could someone enlighten me?

hahahaha

 

[LOLyourFace]

Originally posted by: joohang

Originally posted by: LOLyourFace
let me take reincarnation for example: Christian belief explains everything for every actions and happenings. But it just feels hollow to me that Buddism deals with reincarnation but it offers no further view on how reincarnation is arranged, or what force drives it. It is just a phenonmena that just occurs by itself and is self-sustained? Also Budda was just a normal prince who reached enlightenment through sufferings and taught the proper way to live life. But where does reincarnation fit in? Did he merely discover the concept of reincarnation during enlightenment? did it exist before?

The answer to that depends.

First of all, it is very misleading to say/believe that Buddhism offers little explanation of their beliefs. Literature written on Buddhism is enormous and no human being could ever read and understand them all in a lifetime.

I wish I could answer your question but unfortunately my understanding is too shallow. My suggestion is that if you are really interested, talk to a professor of Buddhism in your local university. Or better yet, take a course.

But just to give a little twist to your questions: Why is it that you believe people are not reincarnated? For many Buddhists, it is strange that you believe that living things do not reincarnate.

i have no problem with believing in reincarnation. there is nothing wrong with the reincarnation itself. It's just that SO FAR, there's no further elaboration on why & how people are reincarnated. You see, it's not offering the full package of complete internal sustainability (hehe ethics class comes in handy for that term)

 

[tweakmm]

Originally posted by: joohang

Originally posted by: tweakmm
It sounds like you are searching, may I suggest looking inside for the answers instead of turning to a book or ancient teaching.

???

You talking to me?

whops

 

[LOLyourFace]

Originally posted by: tweakmm

Originally posted by: joohang

Originally posted by: tweakmm
It sounds like you are searching, may I suggest looking inside for the answers instead of turning to a book or ancient teaching.

???

You talking to me?

nope

im not 'searching'. I'm just interested in what other religions have to offer now that I consider myself firmly grounded in Christianity. Because I can't stand those institutionalized believers. Always question things and keep your eyes and mind open to other things. Progressive doubt is healthier for your faith so I hope to learn about other religions. I believe this will further strengthen my faith in Christianity. If something strongly convince me otherwise, then even better! My search is fruitful is both ways.

 

[joohang]

Originally posted by: LOLyourFace

Originally posted by: joohang

Originally posted by: LOLyourFace
let me take reincarnation for example: Christian belief explains everything for every actions and happenings. But it just feels hollow to me that Buddism deals with reincarnation but it offers no further view on how reincarnation is arranged, or what force drives it. It is just a phenonmena that just occurs by itself and is self-sustained? Also Budda was just a normal prince who reached enlightenment through sufferings and taught the proper way to live life. But where does reincarnation fit in? Did he merely discover the concept of reincarnation during enlightenment? did it exist before?

The answer to that depends.

First of all, it is very misleading to say/believe that Buddhism offers little explanation of their beliefs. Literature written on Buddhism is enormous and no human being could ever read and understand them all in a lifetime.

I wish I could answer your question but unfortunately my understanding is too shallow. My suggestion is that if you are really interested, talk to a professor of Buddhism in your local university. Or better yet, take a course.

But just to give a little twist to your questions: Why is it that you believe people are not reincarnated? For many Buddhists, it is strange that you believe that living things do not reincarnate.

i have no problem with believing in reincarnation. there is nothing wrong with the reincarnation itself. It's just that SO FAR, there's no further elaboration on why & how people are reincarnated. You see, it's not offering the full package of complete internal sustainability (hehe ethics class comes in handy for that term)

My understanding is that Buddhism absorbed the idea of reincarnation from ancient Indian beliefs. I am not too sure how they systemized reincarnation into their own system, though.

But basically, to many Buddhists, the goal is to escape from reincarnation. How to do so varied depending on the school you look into.

You ask some interesting questions, though. I'll talk about this in our next talk and post in this thread again once I understand some stuff.

 

[tweakmm]

Originally posted by: LOLyourFace

Originally posted by: tweakmm

Originally posted by: joohang

Originally posted by: tweakmm
It sounds like you are searching, may I suggest looking inside for the answers instead of turning to a book or ancient teaching.

???

You talking to me?

nope

im not 'searching'. I'm just interested in what other religions have to offer now that I consider myself firmly grounded in Christianity. Because I can't stand those institutionalized believers. Always question things and keep your eyes and mind open to other things. Progressive doubt is healthier for your faith and I hope to learn other religions. I believe this will further strengthen my faith in christianity.

I agree with you about the first part

Keep in mind that when learning about religions unfamiliar with the mindset that christianity is the ultimate answer, your mind is going to block out any truth that would debunk your beliefs in christianity. If you are going to learn about other religions shouldn't you learn about them thinking that you could be 'wrong' about your current belief structure?

 

[joohang]

Originally posted by: LOLyourFace

Originally posted by: tweakmm

Originally posted by: joohang

Originally posted by: tweakmm
It sounds like you are searching, may I suggest looking inside for the answers instead of turning to a book or ancient teaching.

???

You talking to me?

nope

im not 'searching'. I'm just interested in what other religions have to offer now that I consider myself firmly grounded in Christianity. Because I can't stand those institutionalized believers. Always question things and keep your eyes and mind open to other things. Progressive doubt is healthier for your faith and I hope to learn other religions. I believe this will further strenthen my faith in christianity.

Are you allowed to do that as a Christian?

Also, if you are to maintain your faith in Christianity, can you ever deeply think and believe (at least temporarily) in another religion in order to obtain some substantial understanding of it? Otherwise, you will merely scratch the surface and simply use your new learning as a tool to further strengthen your Christian faith. Is that what you want?

Unfortunately, Buddhism is as sophisticated as (if not more) Christianity. It cannot be simply summarized and if you want to learn more about it properly, it'll consume quite a bit of time. And the answers to your questions greatly vary depending on the school you look into.

I do not intend to attack you in any means, and you are perfectly entitled to maintain your Christian faith. I am probably just getting nosy here, but it'd be nice if you do not get too quick to judge other religions to strengthen your Christian faith. That is not fair to other religions since you cannot really give them much chance any ways. I just hope you recognize this.

 

[LOLyourFace]

Originally posted by: tweakmm

Originally posted by: LOLyourFace

Originally posted by: tweakmm

Originally posted by: joohang

Originally posted by: tweakmm
It sounds like you are searching, may I suggest looking inside for the answers instead of turning to a book or ancient teaching.

???

You talking to me?

nope

im not 'searching'. I'm just interested in what other religions have to offer now that I consider myself firmly grounded in Christianity. Because I can't stand those institutionalized believers. Always question things and keep your eyes and mind open to other things. Progressive doubt is healthier for your faith and I hope to learn other religions. I believe this will further strengthen my faith in christianity.

I agree with you about the first part

Keep in mind that when learning about religions unfamiliar with the mindset that christianity is the ultimate answer, your mind is going to block out any truth that would debunk your beliefs in christianity. If you are going to learn about other religions shouldn't you learn about them thinking that you could be 'wrong' about your current belief structure?

well said. however, in this particular case. Buddism has no ground on Christianity so far. It's not even on the level of thinking: 'Christianity is wrong and Buddism is right.' Buddism just doesn't have any sufficient details or counters on natural questions that asked in ANY religions.

 

[Sophia]

You might find A Good Heart: A Buddhist's Perspective on the Teachings of Jesus by the Dalai Lama interesting

 

[LOLyourFace]

Originally posted by: joohang

Originally posted by: LOLyourFace

Originally posted by: tweakmm

Originally posted by: joohang

Originally posted by: tweakmm
It sounds like you are searching, may I suggest looking inside for the answers instead of turning to a book or ancient teaching.

???

You talking to me?

nope

im not 'searching'. I'm just interested in what other religions have to offer now that I consider myself firmly grounded in Christianity. Because I can't stand those institutionalized believers. Always question things and keep your eyes and mind open to other things. Progressive doubt is healthier for your faith and I hope to learn other religions. I believe this will further strenthen my faith in christianity.

Are you allowed to do that as a Christian?

Also, if you are to maintain your faith in Christianity, can you ever deeply think and believe (at least temporarily) in another religion in order to obtain some substantial understanding of it? Otherwise, you will merely scratch the surface and simply use your new learning as a tool to further strengthen your Christian faith. Is that what you want?

Unfortunately, Buddhism is as sophisticated as (if not more) Christianity. It cannot be simply summarized and if you want to learn more about it properly, it'll consume quite a bit of time. And the answers to your questions greatly vary depending on the school you look into.

I do not intend to attack you in any means, and you are perfectly entitled to maintain your Christian faith. I am probably just getting nosy here, but it'd be nice if you do not get too quick to judge other religions to strengthen your Christian faith. That is not fair to other religions since you cannot really give them much chance any ways. I just hope you recognize this.

Right. I'm gonna be very careful with what I say here. I haven't made any quick judgements about Buddism. This thread is ongoing, I'm asking questions about it continually and people are answering them nicely. But it seems like you got that impression. And as for what you asked, there is nothing wrong with looking into other religions to broaden your perspective. I do not mean practicing it, but learning about their beliefs and systems...

I didn't take it as an attack in anyway.. it seems like you've ran into some typical paranoid believers before. I'm just here to learn more about other religions, particularly Buddism in this case.

 

[tweakmm]

Originally posted by: LOLyourFace
well said. however, in this particular case. Buddism has no ground on Christianity so far. It's not even on the level of thinking 'Christianity is wrong and Buddism is right.' Buddism just doesn't have any sufficient details or counters on natural questions that asked.

That's the great thing about Zen, it's not really a religion so it can coinside with traditional religions in someone's belief structure. I know several people who are Zen/Taoist Christians and I know that back in the day in China people would often be several 'religions'.

 

[igowerf]

Nietzsche has some pretty interesting views on Christianity and Buddhism.