Nader wins Reform Party support.

[Pandaren]

And that is why Nader will never win. People disfavor "revolution" if it can be avoided.

From an idealistic standpoint, maybe voting for Nader is the "pure" thing to do, but as a matter of practicality, this country cannot risk another four years of the Bush administration. A vote for Nader is one less vote for Kerry.

Originally posted by: MAW1082
Yeah the Nader anti-war campaign probably will box in Kerry. Kerry is not going to withdrawal all our troops from Iraq.

Any person with ANY sense at all can see that the PEOPLE IN IRAQ DO NOT WANT US THERE. America as an imperial empire is not something that most informed people want for their country.

Bush is a naive evangelical who can't see the world for what it is.

Kerry sold out long ago when he joined the US military.

Nader is nothing short of a revolutionary attempting to overthrow imperialist American values through democratic means.

NO TO BUSH. NO TO KERRY. YES TO NADER.

 

[Steeplerot]

Practical Standpoint is neither of the "main" canidates are a choice worthy to be president. They are both status quo.
Only true vote (for me) is Nader.
This country needs a 3rd party to check the situation we are in now. (spinning our wheels while money rules our democracy.)
This is Naders base platform.
The other two want to kiss ass to keep up what they are -career politicians (and I dont care if your Dem Or Rep we all know that it is a corrupt buisness to be in.)
It is time for change and the only way to tell the people in power is to stand up and vote how you truely feel.
Much more then going and dying for oil -this is not a worthy cause of an American.
But voting for what you feel will help and lead us in the correct direction is a special right the forefathers of our country trusted us to "Stay the course" on.
By voting for Kerry and ignoring what you hear Nader say so desperatly is need in this country done just to spite Bush and his cronies
(Which I see no difference between either of Bush or Kerrys agendas in the long run $$$)
This is selling out of democracy. You only marganilize yourself and what you feel is right.
There are a lot of people who have lost faith also and who wouldn't bother voting since "It's so messed up why bother fixing it." types.
Well you CAN fix it vote Nader go read what he is about.
Compared to the same old same old coming from the reps and dems he IS revolutionary.
And what he says makes sense as it has for years that he has spoken up for the people.
Not just libs.
It is your choice so try making it for yourself and not for the flock.
You owe it to your country.

 

[Genesys]

Originally posted by: MAW1082
...imperial empire...

redundant much?

 

[n0cmonkey]

By saying a third party candidate does not have a chance of winning you are dooming us to a two party system. It's a damn shame. We can do so much better than Bush and Kerry.

 

[MidasKnight]

Out here in Oregon I've seen more " Nader " bumper stickers as of late. Doesn't really mean much but back in Dec/Jan there were lots of " Dean " stickers then ...

 

[Mill]

Abhorrent. Why can't there be a real 3rd party candidate worth two sh!ts? I don't like anyone running.

 

[Pandaren]

I have read Nader's website (now and in 2000). Nader's "issues" section sounds very much like Kerry's "issues" section, with the exception that Nader has stated little about national security other than his opinion that the U.S. should pull out of Iraq.

I watched Nader speak at my university in 2000 when I was still an undergraduate. When faced with difficult questions on various issues, he always dodged the question. He didn't strike me as any more honest or less self serving than any other politician.

Nader has done good things for America, but I don't believe he is the best candidate for president.

And as I said before, the vast majority of Americans I have met, from all walks of life, would prefer well-planned, deliberate change rather than rapid and "revolutionary" change.

Well you CAN fix it vote Nader go read what he is about.
Compared to the same old same old coming from the reps and dems he IS revolutionary.
And what he says makes sense as it has for years that he has spoken up for the people.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: MidasKnight
Out here in Oregon I've seen more " Nader " bumper stickers as of late. Doesn't really mean much but back in Dec/Jan there were lots of " Dean " stickers then ...

Well, he was unable to muster 1,000 signatures in Portland when it would have meant getting his name on the ballot, so I have to question thedepth of that support.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: Don_Vito

Originally posted by: MAW1082

Nothing against those who have been in the military, it's just that you sold out.

-MAW

How do you think this country gained its freedom? Liberty comes at a price. It is NOT the bailiwick of soldiers (or sailors, or airmen, or marines) to blindly do as they're told - their job is to support and defend the Constitution of the United States.

By your definition, anybody who undertakes any form of employment for money has "sold out," in that he has agreed to provide personal services for money. Hell, Nader is "selling out" by running for president.

Have you ever had to work for a living yourself?

but the war in Vietnam had noting to do with "their job is to support and defend the Constitution of the United States"; so they wern't doing their job, they were selling out.

 

[Drift3r]

Originally posted by: feelingshorter
So basicaly hes the guy that wanted to stop the illegal mexican crossing over our borders?

No, Nader is ultra liberal.

 

[viivo]

Ah man, it was so close to being a thread where someone doesn't make a half-assed reference to Vietnam and/or use it to justify their argument, too.

Maybe next year.

 

[MAW1082]

Yo all I am saying is that if you're in the military you don't get to decide which wars to fight in based on which you feel are righteous. You must simply do as your told. Most military people, however, will believe what they are doing is righteous based on a psychological condition called cognitive dissidence. There are actual experiments relating to this.

Fact of the matter is, if you are in the military you are quite simply a TOOL OF THE EMPIRE.

 

[Steeplerot]

And as I said before, the vast majority of Americans I have met, from all walks of life, would prefer well-planned, deliberate change rather than rapid and "revolutionary" change.
This is all about who you know and where you live there are a lot of people I run into that are ready to overthrow it before an election.
Radical change is what the founders of this country prescribed for the ills the country has right now.
I have seen Nader speak also and he does dodge questions that are redundant issues that get nowhere he'd rather focus on actual change and new ideas then raking abotion social security etc. over the coals. There are much more important things to take care of now in this crooked farce of a democracy.
And weeding out the crooked buisness practices is his forte.
-A very wise option now to clean up this mess and get some real democracy again.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: MAW1082
Yo all I am saying is that if you're in the military you don't get to decide which wars to fight in based on which you feel are righteous. You must simply do as your told. Most military people, however, will believe what they are doing is righteous based on a psychological condition called cognitive dissidence. There are actual experiments relating to this.

Fact of the matter is, if you are in the military you are quite simply a TOOL OF THE EMPIRE.

I suspect you know little to nothing about the theoretical constructs you propose, much less their actual application. That said, you never really addressed my question. How does the phenomenon you describe as "selling out" differ for military members, as opposed to any other form of employment? After all, most people "must simply do as [they're] told" at work.

I strenuously take issue with the proposition that military service = selling out, and many of our greatest presidents were military members, so it seems ludicrous to insist that this form of "selling out" is a disqualifier for being an effective president (unless you are seriously arguing that Ralph Nader would be a better president than, oh, George Washington).

 

[Zebo]

MAW1082- You need to chill, the military and the nation without good officers like the Don would be in real trouble. And i think the military offers wonderful things most employers will not provide today from training to disapline honor integrity etc..once again made possible by good people in there. Sure they have to follow orders but plenty speak out like Gen Zinni and many others..

And just like any other job you can retire yourself at any time.

Just like any other job you need to follow orders.

Just like any other job your speech is limited.

Work sucks thats why they have to pay you to do it. Get over it. Everyones a sellout and would rather be playing golf between sipping margaritas and jet skiing in the Virgin Islands. But you can' do any of these without work.

And the military is nessesary to protect the united states from badies and someone has to do *this* particular job.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Well put, Zebo.

I find it a little ironic that, notwithstanding MAW1082's comments, I am far from being a puppet of the Bush administration, and if anything I have regularly been the subject of criticism by this board's true pro-Bush neoconservatives for my positions vis a vis the war in Iraq and other policy matters. I can hardly stand the cognitive dissonance!

In all fairness, enlisted folks generally cannot leave the military at will - they generally have to serve out their enlistments to leave (whereas, as a general matter, officers can resign their commissions once they have served any active duty service commitments they might be under). If anything, it seems to me this would be less likely to engender the kind of groupthink that MAW is insisting is the norm, but then I am no expert on cognitive dissonance (though as it happens I have a BA in psychology - unfortunately that was a long time ago!).

 

[n0cmonkey]

Choose between the stumbling bumbling prince of lies* or the flip flop king of crap**. Nah, Nader all the way.

*And yes, I realize bush didn't lie about the WMD. They're there with about 3 billion mismatched socks (not pairs, just individuals).
**And yes, I realize Kerry only flip flops because of riders on the bills. Those things should be illegal, they make no sense and don't help a goddamn thing.

 

[MidasKnight]

Originally posted by: Don_Vito

Originally posted by: MidasKnight
Out here in Oregon I've seen more " Nader " bumper stickers as of late. Doesn't really mean much but back in Dec/Jan there were lots of " Dean " stickers then ...

Well, he was unable to muster 1,000 signatures in Portland when it would have meant getting his name on the ballot, so I have to question thedepth of that support.

Like I said " Doesn't really mean much " but in Portland ( Multnomah County ) is a major Democrat strong hold in this State .. tow the party line kind of people so to speak. That doesn't surprise me when Nader couldn't muster up those signatures. I'm thinking he's getting what support he can in Oregon from the Willamette valley area i.e Salem / Eugene .. ect. Still though, Kerry will win this State.

:moon: