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My worst fear is true. Government taxing solar now.

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
57,614
7,892
126
www.uovalor.com
This stuff just makes my blood boil.

So if you have solar panels on your house you're expected to pay taxes on what you produce. Freaking pisses me off how overreaching these assholes are. Anything you try to do to save money they'll just take that money anyway.


Looks like he's grid tied though... not sure if he would have an easier time if he was fully off grid. Or it might be worse as without an official meter they would just calculate the "best" case scenario, and that would be the kwh rating of the panels per hour. Either way this is just the beginning. As people slowly move to live styles that depend less on the grid, or gas (ex: switching to EVs) they'll figure out a way to tax alternate energy to discourage it's use.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,402
3,939
126
He should get off the grid if he doesnt want to pay. Otherwise the grid is part of his system.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
57,614
7,892
126
www.uovalor.com
He should get off the grid if he doesnt want to pay. Otherwise the grid is part of his system.
They'd probably still tax him. They are taxing him on the grid electricity he is NOT using but producing himself. Their train of thought is "if he didn't have solar he'd be using more power, so we better charge him on that power". Basically anything you do that reduces your costs, they see that extra money as income, which is retarded. In this case I think it's more they want the HST that he "should" be paying if he was buying the electricity from the grid. Would not surprise me though if at some point they double tax you. Income tax, AND HST.

I do wonder what that would mean for a cabin in the woods though, do they go around looking for people with solar or did the fact that he's in a city draw more attention. If ever I build an off grid cabin my panels will be vertically mounted though so it might not show up as well on satellite.

Not sure what the laws in Ontario are for that, but I may have to worry about the 400w array on my shed if they're going to start doing this stuff. I don't produce anywhere near 400wh, but they could very well charge me for that.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,402
3,939
126
They'd probably still tax him. They are taxing him on the grid electricity he is NOT using but producing himself. Their train of thought is "if he didn't have solar he'd be using more power, so we better charge him on that power". Basically anything you do that reduces your costs, they see that extra money as income, which is retarded.
but as long as he is attached to the grid he has a vested interest in it being maintained. How would they tax him if they had no idea what he made?
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
57,614
7,892
126
www.uovalor.com
but as long as he is attached to the grid he has a vested interest in it being maintained. How would they tax him if they had no idea what he made?
Guessing they'd just look at the rating of the array and charge whatever per hour. So a 10kw system would be charged at 10kwh. They don't care that you're not actually producing that much. Or they would mandate a meter be installed anyway and charge you based on that.
 

LurchFrinky

Senior member
Nov 12, 2003
288
50
91
The article makes it sound like he did use their electricity - for instance, at night - and that is what he is being taxed on. It doesn't make it any better, but he is paying tax when he is using grid power, but doesn't get the tax credit when he generates it.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,402
3,939
126
Guessing they'd just look at the rating of the array and charge whatever per hour. So a 10kw system would be charged at 10kwh. They don't care that you're not actually producing that much. Or they would mandate a meter be installed anyway and charge you based on that.
breath man. It will be ok.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
57,614
7,892
126
www.uovalor.com
The article makes it sound like he did use their electricity - for instance, at night - and that is what he is being taxed on. It doesn't make it any better, but he is paying tax when he is using grid power, but doesn't get the tax credit when he generates it.
If that was the case then it's normal, but it sounds like he's also having to pay HST on whatever he produces too. Either way he should look at going off grid if he has room for that much solar panels. I know I would. The delivery fee alone is crazy on hydro so staying on grid makes solar hardly worth it since you're still paying delivery. I wonder if he could register as an utility company, then he could probably claim a loss on the batteries or maybe even get subsidies any time those come around.
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
50,270
2,938
126
The article makes it sound like he did use their electricity - for instance, at night - and that is what he is being taxed on. It doesn't make it any better, but he is paying tax when he is using grid power, but doesn't get the tax credit when he generates it.
That's what I got out of it too. They're still using grid power, they're part of the net metering program, and HST is charged to customers who are part of the net metering program. It also says they're supposed to get credits for what they supply when generating excess power.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,402
3,939
126
That's what I got out of it too. They're still using grid power, they're part of the net metering program, and HST is charged to customers who are part of the net metering program. It also says they're supposed to get credits for what they supply when generating excess power.
yeah. hey get to use the grid as a big unlimited battery.
 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
61,146
13,088
136
The article makes it sound like he did use their electricity - for instance, at night - and that is what he is being taxed on. It doesn't make it any better, but he is paying tax when he is using grid power, but doesn't get the tax credit when he generates it.
When he sells power to the grid the people who use it pay the tax. Everybody pays taxes on the power they use except maybe what the Power Co uses in their own facilities.

It does extend the payback period for installing solar somewhat, maybe a lot considering that HST is 15% on Prince Edward Island.
 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
61,146
13,088
136
That's what I got out of it too. They're still using grid power, they're part of the net metering program, and HST is charged to customers who are part of the net metering program. It also says they're supposed to get credits for what they supply when generating excess power.
Whoa, there. If the tax credit equals the tax paid at the other end the govt gets no revenue from the exchange.
 

snoopy7548

Diamond Member
Jan 1, 2005
5,962
2,837
136
My worst fear is falling into the toilet at work and then having to get toilet water all over my car as I drive home to change clothes.
 
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simpletron

Member
Oct 31, 2008
179
7
81
The home owner has two meters. One meter is attracted just to the PV system and spins backwards when it produces power. The other is standard meter for the home and spins forward whenever he consumes power. This is a common setup for net metering.

The complete home owner bill looks like the following:
Service Charge ....................................................$26.92
Energy Charge (644 @0.1397$/kwh)..................$89.90
Subtotal ...............................................................$116.82
HST = 116.82 x 15% .............................................$17.52
Net Metering Credit (644 @0.1397$/kwh)..........-$89.90
Net Metering Surplus (1288 kwh )
Total Bill ..................................................................$44.44

So to clear up some of the misconceptions in the posts above. 644 kwh was the homeowner total power consumption for the month. He paid HST on his total power consumption from the grid and the service charge. He got paid the same rate (0.1397$/kwh) for electricity produce up to how much he consumed and with the surplus production being documented to be used to offset future month consumption(where I live these credits are only good for a year).

The HST doesn't change the payback per for solar because you get the full rate (0.1397) regardless what the HST is. HST actually makes energy conservation projects (led lights, insulation, etc) more valuable/better ROI.

Side note to homeowners with attics: Buying spray foam in a can and caulk to air seal all the punctures in the ceiling and top plates.(think light fixtures, seam between top plates and drywall, and electrical wiring holes in the top plate). Then roll out batts of unfaced R-30 insulation to cover the attic is probably the best $1000 upgrade for a home and will pay for itself very quickly and makes your home's temperature more even/comfortable.
 
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blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
8,467
422
126
The Government should not be taxing Solar installations emit next to zero carbon where it installed.

One can quibble about the manufacturing process I guess and some probably will but factories don't move and as such one can attach systems to capture unwanted side effects from manufacturing fairly easily...


________
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
57,614
7,892
126
www.uovalor.com
The Government should not be taxing Solar installations emit next to zero carbon where it installed.

One can quibble about the manufacturing process I guess and some probably will but factories don't move and as such one can attach systems to capture unwanted side effects from manufacturing fairly easily...


________
I think the government secretly hates green energy, as once it's setup, it's free, and they really don't like that. The government hates when people find a way to keep money in their pockets. There's lot of instances of people trying to go off grid only to be told by the government that they can't, and their entire property gets condemned. It's going to get worse as we start to see more adoption of green tech. EVs are about to blow up I think, and when it gets to a point that more than say 30% of the cars are EVs they will put their foot down and stop it. With EVs you don't pay the gas tax and you're not contributing as much to the oil and gas industry, and they will put a stop to that in short order when they see it as a problem. Now they are trying to pretend they care about the environment so it would look bad, so they're letting it go for now.

I want to eventually buy off grid property and I'm hoping to do it sooner rather than later as if they do implement laws making it completely illegal there's a small chance that existing setups get grandfathered. I would put my solar panels vertical as it's more optimal for here so hopefully they would not pickup on that and try to tax me.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,402
3,939
126
I think the government secretly hates green energy, as once it's setup, it's free, and they really don't like that. The government hates when people find a way to keep money in their pockets. There's lot of instances of people trying to go off grid only to be told by the government that they can't, and their entire property gets condemned. It's going to get worse as we start to see more adoption of green tech. EVs are about to blow up I think, and when it gets to a point that more than say 30% of the cars are EVs they will put their foot down and stop it. With EVs you don't pay the gas tax and you're not contributing as much to the oil and gas industry, and they will put a stop to that in short order when they see it as a problem. Now they are trying to pretend they care about the environment so it would look bad, so they're letting it go for now.

I want to eventually buy off grid property and I'm hoping to do it sooner rather than later as if they do implement laws making it completely illegal there's a small chance that existing setups get grandfathered. I would put my solar panels vertical as it's more optimal for here so hopefully they would not pickup on that and try to tax me.
Yeah but your taxes go to healthcare and the betterment of your fellow Canadian. Mine goes towards killing brown skinned people in far off lands and tax cuts for the ultra rich. In other words, You have nothing to complain about.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
57,614
7,892
126
www.uovalor.com
Yeah but your taxes go to healthcare and the betterment of your fellow Canadian. Mine goes towards killing brown skinned people in far off lands and tax cuts for the ultra rich. In other words, You have nothing to complain about.
I'm fine with the regular taxes like income tax, it's the overtaxation that is a problem. Every direction you go, they find a new way to tax you.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
103,568
18,119
136
They'd probably still tax him. They are taxing him on the grid electricity he is NOT using but producing himself. Their train of thought is "if he didn't have solar he'd be using more power, so we better charge him on that power". Basically anything you do that reduces your costs, they see that extra money as income, which is retarded. In this case I think it's more they want the HST that he "should" be paying if he was buying the electricity from the grid. Would not surprise me though if at some point they double tax you. Income tax, AND HST.

I do wonder what that would mean for a cabin in the woods though, do they go around looking for people with solar or did the fact that he's in a city draw more attention. If ever I build an off grid cabin my panels will be vertically mounted though so it might not show up as well on satellite.

Not sure what the laws in Ontario are for that, but I may have to worry about the 400w array on my shed if they're going to start doing this stuff. I don't produce anywhere near 400wh, but they could very well charge me for that.
Wouldn't they be taxing him on the infrastructure that he is using, just like everyone else is? Even if the taxes are applied to what he produces, I'm sure it's because it's just a way to measure his public/private use of stuff he doesn't own.

....I do get it. It makes sense, so I don't know what the problem is. Obviously, if he's not using the infrastructure, that's a different story.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
103,568
18,119
136
Side note to homeowners with attics: Buying spray foam in a can and caulk to air seal all the punctures in the ceiling and top plates.(think light fixtures, seam between top plates and drywall, and electrical wiring holes in the top plate). Then roll out batts of unfaced R-30 insulation to cover the attic is probably the best $1000 upgrade for a home and will pay for itself very quickly and makes your home's temperature more even/comfortable.
I keep meaning to do this.

....maybe next year! :D
 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
61,146
13,088
136
Yeah but your taxes go to healthcare and the betterment of your fellow Canadian. Mine goes towards killing brown skinned people in far off lands and tax cuts for the ultra rich. In other words, You have nothing to complain about.
We do a lot of good things with tax money, as well. That's the part anti-gubmint Libertopian billionaires want us to forget. Taxes are for the little people.
 

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