My Uncle was racist, but was he bad? YART

[Hayabusa Rider]

Yet Another Race Thread.

We've had a few of those recently, and I've thought about my own family in that context.

The background-
My uncle (for whom I had genuine affection) did have an annoying habit of being very vocal about his racism. He was a dirt farmer from down south and he repeated what he had heard over and over and that was blacks are untrustworthy and lazy. When Obama ran the first time he said "I'll never vote for a ******". Yes, I said "that word", because that's how he spoke.

Now I'd never seen him mistreat in any way someone who was black, and if he knew them personally he never had a bad word to say. Curious case, my uncle.

So one time when I was visiting, his daughter (my cousin of course) told me to ask him about something that had just happened a day or two before. Something about a black guy being hurt.

Well I don't remember if it was a fall or a car accident or just what, but he was driving through Little Rock "in the wrong kind of neighborhood" and there was a black man who was clearly injured. The majority of people there were black and they just walked past him. The few whites did too. So he pulled over, gave him first aid, had someone call an ambulance and waited until they came and was attended to. Yeah a black guy.

So I asked him the obvious question "Why did you help him"? His response was one of confusion and said this as if I were stupid as could be. "He was hurt and no one was helping him." That was it. He saw an injured person who needed help and stepped in and even afterward he didn't see the irony.

That's not an approval of all my uncle does, but people are complex and strange creatures. Some will say all the right things and do wrong, and some will do the opposite.

I have to say I was pretty proud of the old man that day.

Just a ramble, but we use terms (not just racist, again this wasn't a defense of how he spoke) that create a box so we can put people in. Blacks voting for blacks aren't automatically doing so because of racism, white for whites for that matter.

Might be best to not be too hasty in making judgements based on what we call them.

 

[Geosurface]

Racism is built in to all human beings, in-group/out-group mistrust and such are just the nature of us.

Some do a better job of hiding it than others, of suppressing it. Some don't even try. Most people throughout history were born into a time and a world where the notion of trying to suppress or hide it wasn't even on their radar.

Maybe there's something to be said for different peoples having their own areas, and interacting peacefully and coexisting, but in their own lands. I hate to think it but, the fact is... most of the strife in this world takes place in areas with some sort of ethnic conflict and the safest, happiest places tend to be pretty homogeneous.

If we see a Jewish mother talking about how she wants her daughter to marry a nice Jewish boy, we don't call it racist. We understand where she's coming from.

An old black grandmother expressing similar feelings about her granddaughter or grandson, or a black mother disapproving of her son having a white girlfriend likewise will not be perceived as racist nor called out as such by the vast majority of people.

If you go to a reservation and a Cherokee man speaks of how his peoples' bloodline is being lost, and he wishes the young people would stick with breeding only with other Cherokee, we understand his desires and do not call him racist.

When the Japanese express distrust and dislike for foreigners, and a desire to keep Japan Japanese and maintain their race and their culture, few and far between are those who call them racist. We understand.

Only white people beat themselves up constantly about how racist they are, only they self-inflict so much guilt and torment for something that is quite simply, natural, normal, and always has been.

For many years I felt the answer was for everyone to just mix together and then racism would end. Maybe that would work but, wouldn't it be sad to lose the distinct populations I mentioned, Native Americans, etc, wouldn't that be a horrible loss of diversity?

I was just watching Cave of Forgotten Dreams again, fantastic documentary about a cave discovered in France in 1994, with the oldest paintings ever found. 35,000 years old in some cases.

The people who did those paintings, nearly 40,000 years ago, were white Europeans. Now, native Europeans have plummeting birth rates, immigration from other parts of the world is incredibly high, and the birth rates of those immigrants is incredibly high.

Is it wrong or racist to wish that Europe would remain European? That the heritage that stretches back tens of thousands of years, continue? That the risk not be run that those lands be inherited and controlled eventually by people who may not have the same values, and may indeed destroy those paintings and other cultural landmarks (much more recent ones from merely a thousand years ago etc) in the same way that the ancient Buddhist statues were destroyed by the Taliban for being graven images?

And, if you find it racist for me to say this... consider whether you would find this same desire, expressed in this same way, racist if I were from ANY other group than white.

Whites are the least racist people on the planet, and have convinced themselves they are the most racist. They're by and large the only ones even concerning themselves with the issue.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Racism is built in to all human beings, in-group/out-group mistrust and such are just the nature of us.

Some do a better job of hiding it than others, of suppressing it. Some don't even try. Most people throughout history were born into a time and a world where the notion of trying to suppress or hide it wasn't even on their radar.

Maybe there's something to be said for different peoples having their own areas, and interacting peacefully and coexisting, but in their own lands. I hate to think it but, the fact is... most of the strife in this world takes place in areas with some sort of ethnic conflict and the safest, happiest places tend to be pretty homogeneous.

If we see a Jewish mother talking about how she wants her daughter to marry a nice Jewish boy, we don't call it racist. We understand where she's coming from.

An old black grandmother expressing similar feelings about her granddaughter or grandson, or a black mother disapproving of her son having a white girlfriend likewise will not be perceived as racist nor called out as such by the vast majority of people.

If you go to a reservation and a Cherokee man speaks of how his peoples' bloodline is being lost, and he wishes the young people would stick with breeding only with other Cherokee, we understand his desires and do not call him racist.

When the Japanese express distrust and dislike for foreigners, and a desire to keep Japan Japanese and maintain their race and their culture, few and far between are those who call them racist. We understand.

Only white people beat themselves up constantly about how racist they are, only they self-inflict so much guilt and torment for something that is quite simply, natural, normal, and always has been.

For many years I felt the answer was for everyone to just mix together and then racism would end. Maybe that would work but, wouldn't it be sad to lose the distinct populations I mentioned, Native Americans, etc, wouldn't that be a horrible loss of diversity?

I was just watching Cave of Forgotten Dreams again, fantastic documentary about a cave discovered in France in 1994, with the oldest paintings ever found. 35,000 years old in some cases.

The people who did those paintings, nearly 40,000 years ago, were white Europeans. Now, native Europeans have plummeting birth rates, immigration from other parts of the world is incredibly high, and the birth rates of those immigrants is incredibly high.

Is it wrong or racist to wish that Europe would remain European? That the heritage that stretches back tens of thousands of years, continue? That the risk not be run that those lands be inherited and controlled eventually by people who may not have the same values, and may indeed destroy those paintings and other cultural landmarks (much more recent ones from merely a thousand years ago etc) in the same way that the ancient Buddhist statues were destroyed by the Taliban for being graven images?

And, if you find it racist for me to say this... consider whether you would find this same desire, expressed in this same way, racist if I were from ANY other group than white.

Whites are the least racist people on the planet, and have convinced themselves they are the most racist. They're by and large the only ones even concerning themselves with the issue.

My purpose for posting wasn't to justify racism, rather to think about what terms mean and when to apply them properly. If someone were to say they "hate that <insert choice here> I don't see that as a good thing, but I am aware that people do tend to have particular biases they might not even be aware of. When we get to "I won't rent to that person", "I won't give one of them a job" etc, based on their categorization then we've crossed the line. I want to make sure that point is understood.

 

[Geosurface]

My purpose for posting wasn't to justify racism, rather to think about what terms mean and when to apply them properly. If someone were to say they "hate that <insert choice here> I don't see that as a good thing, but I am aware that people do tend to have particular biases they might not even be aware of. When we get to "I won't rent to that person", "I won't give one of them a job" etc, based on their categorization then we've crossed the line. I want to make sure that point is understood.

I believe in treating all individuals of all groups with respect and kindness. I have always done so in my personal life.

I'm not talking about anything like you referenced, I'm merely musing as to whether the western world opening it's doors quite so wide was wise... and whether that policy should continue.

When prosperous nations with a high standard of living invite mass immigration from other parts of the world, people from those parts of the world will be more than willing to overlook the unpleasantness of living in a strange land with a different language, and culture, if the standard of living and opportunities are dramatically higher there than what they left behind.

Whether those nations will remain prosperous and retain that standard of living while maintaining such a posture is quite another matter.

 

[SandEagle]

the bananas don't fall far from the tree it seems..

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

the bananas don't fall far from the tree it seems..

Or the nuts.

 

[Moonbeam]

http://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_on_the_myth_of_violence.html

http://www.ted.com/talks/robert_wright_on_optimism.html

Two experiments have been done with infants before the age of reason and brainwashing can occur. One is that children by 85% will choose a toy they have seen as helpful over one that frustrated other toys. The second is that children will pick the toy they identify as being like them. Out of this we have two different genetic impulses, one to care and the other to protect our tribe. In the videos above are suggestions, I think, that our survival will depend on whom we come to see as the tribe we belong to. In the case of your uncle, I would say the empathy won. He saw himself laying on the ground not a worthless black. He responded to his better angels.

 

[SheHateMe]

It all makes sense now. Who else on AT has racists in their family?

 

[HamburgerBoy]

It all makes sense now. Who else on AT has racists in their family?

Your mom.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

It all makes sense now. Who else on AT has racists in their family?

Most likely you and just about everyone else.

 

[Binarycow]

Yet Another Race Thread.

We've had a few of those recently, and I've thought about my own family in that context.

The background-
My uncle (for whom I had genuine affection) did have an annoying habit of being very vocal about his racism. He was a dirt farmer from down south and he repeated what he had heard over and over and that was blacks are untrustworthy and lazy. When Obama ran the first time he said "I'll never vote for a ******". Yes, I said "that word", because that's how he spoke.

Now I'd never seen him mistreat in any way someone who was black, and if he knew them personally he never had a bad word to say. Curious case, my uncle.

So one time when I was visiting, his daughter (my cousin of course) told me to ask him about something that had just happened a day or two before. Something about a black guy being hurt.

Well I don't remember if it was a fall or a car accident or just what, but he was driving through Little Rock "in the wrong kind of neighborhood" and there was a black man who was clearly injured. The majority of people there were black and they just walked past him. The few whites did too. So he pulled over, gave him first aid, had someone call an ambulance and waited until they came and was attended to. Yeah a black guy.

So I asked him the obvious question "Why did you help him"? His response was one of confusion and said this as if I were stupid as could be. "He was hurt and no one was helping him." That was it. He saw an injured person who needed help and stepped in and even afterward he didn't see the irony.

That's not an approval of all my uncle does, but people are complex and strange creatures. Some will say all the right things and do wrong, and some will do the opposite.

I have to say I was pretty proud of the old man that day.

Just a ramble, but we use terms (not just racist, again this wasn't a defense of how he spoke) that create a box so we can put people in. Blacks voting for blacks aren't automatically doing so because of racism, white for whites for that matter.

Might be best to not be too hasty in making judgements based on what we call them.

your uncle has a good heart and a bad mouth which is much much much better for all the humanity around him than if it were the other way around.
I live in Oklahoma the last twenty something years and I have met many people like your uncle and I would rather have people like him for my neighbors ( I'm not white btw) than many other kinds of people in this world.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

http://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_on_the_myth_of_violence.html

http://www.ted.com/talks/robert_wright_on_optimism.html

Two experiments have been done with infants before the age of reason and brainwashing can occur. One is that children by 85% will choose a toy they have seen as helpful over one that frustrated other toys. The second is that children will pick the toy they identify as being like them. Out of this we have two different genetic impulses, one to care and the other to protect our tribe. In the videos above are suggestions, I think, that our survival will depend on whom we come to see as the tribe we belong to. In the case of your uncle, I would say the empathy won. He saw himself laying on the ground not a worthless black. He responded to his better angels.

I've seen the reverse where a person has said all the right things but when faced with reality they didn't really believe what they said. When we are young and surrounded by people that love us we visually identify with them. But there comes a time when others who do not approach. Then the child will notice, but what matters is how the other responds. A smile or a laugh and everything else does not matter. It's when we get older that we learn how we're "supposed" to act. Fortunately I wasn't raised in an environment where I was subject to whatever influences my uncle was. We learn a set of expected behaviors and sometimes those are cruel. So on one hand we have peer pressure as an example but are taught by others (well hopefully) to treat others well. A demon on one shoulder and the angel on the other. When the time comes may we all listen to the later.

 

[Northern Lawn]

People consider me racist because I hate muslims and think even if they are not actual terrorists, they support their terrorist heroes. I also don't think they should be allowed to immigrate to Canada or ever travel through Canada until this whole Islam thing is destroyed.

But that's safety and a healthy hate against your enemy is a good thing.

I don't consider myself racist because I like other cultures like the Japanese, the Chinese. I'm neutral on blacks though. I like Obama and a lot of black music but the people's culture... well if they really did build pyramids maybe. But I don't believe that, every country controlled by blacks is a Shit hole. Every neighbourhood where blacks are dominant, I wouldn't dare walk through.

To have anything other than a positive opinion seems to label you as a racist. So be it.

 

[UberNeuman]

"If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it."

\and now as I quote this, I regret giving Howard shit over his Game Of Thrones quote in the past...

 

[SheHateMe]

Oh, this thread is just starting to heat up. I can't wait until Spidey & Company gets here.

 

[Moonbeam]

Most likely you and just about everyone else.

You're right but Hamburger was funnier.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

You're right but Hamburger was funnier.

It's a gift to be both funny and right : D

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

"If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it."

\and now as I quote this, I regret giving Howard shit over his Game Of Thrones quote in the past...

I'm just getting into the second book in the series. Just finished Anathem, which had it's moments but at times felt like a lecture on metaphysics.

 

[BD231]

Id kill a man for being racist, but I wouldnt kill a man for being a certain race. Sometimes I wonder who id be if I wasnt raised by a dumb white woman and racist white family .... but I was and I believe they deserve terrible things done to them. When the time comes ....

 

[UberNeuman]

Id kill a man for being racist.

Then you'd be wrong.... as you haven't learned from history.....

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Oh, this thread is just starting to heat up. I can't wait until Spidey & Company gets here.

As for you, envy me. I was listening to this earlier

 

[JEDIYoda]

As for you, envy me. I was listening to this earlier

like minds......
I have conservatively speaking 5,000 cd`s. Among those are Vladimir Ashkenazy`s complete 24 Preludes and Fugues of Shostakovich op 87.

 

[momeNt]

You're only racist if you wouldn't want your daughter marrying someone of a different race. Anything short of that is just social quirks and oddities, the daughter test is the only true racist test.

 

[mikeymikec]

You're only racist if you wouldn't want your daughter marrying someone of a different race. Anything short of that is just social quirks and oddities, the daughter test is the only true racist test.

What if one doesn't have a daughter, are they automatically not racist?

Your logic has so many flaws in it that I'm not sure where to start. Hopefully you weren't being serious.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

Great posts by Hayabusa and Geosurface to start out this thread. Nice to see some thoughtful consideration of the subject (before, as usual, it all went downhill.)