my turn for a few water cooling questions...

[Fullmetal Chocobo]

I'm working on the planning stage of a new project. I would like to make my monster case a water cooling setup. My main goal on this machine will be to minimize heat into the surrounding area (considering exhausting the air from the radiator to outside the house/room/etc), and creating a water cooling setup that requires very little maintenance, and easy of performing any necessary maintenance.

As I already have the motherboard, RAM, and processors, I will likely use my dual Xeon 604 setup. My case is a huge Enermax FS2300BB 23-bay server case, so I will keep all of the components in the case.

1) How would I go about doing a water cooling loop that minimizes the need for maintenance (replacing the water, etc)?

2) What setup is ideal for ease of maintenance?

Thanks for any help or suggestions that will guide my research...

 

[WoodButcher]

I use both a res and T line. The res is great on startup , removing air and filling. The T also can do this and helps when bleediing off air but makes it easy and fast to drain and flush.
Ducting to another room will be a prob though, you could run a long loop w/ a second pump as I did but you still have air from the board and the loop is more work to care for. If your interested I have a picture or two.
Moving just the air with ducting is possible but you would need high flow fans which would make it noisy, think of your bath fan, that is a 4" duct. If you use tin duct pipe not flex-pipe you can use slower fans. Google HVAC / airflow

 

[dedwards]

For low maintenance - I would make sure you keep the gunk out of your loop.

Flush the rad thoroughly before installing it, following the instructions in this post -
Link

Don't mix metals in your loop - avoid waterblocks containing aluminum and keep it all-copper is the easiest way.

Use distilled water with a good antifreeze added. Most people recommend something in the neighborhood of 10%. A lot of the fancy, expensive additives can actually be bad for your loop so take care. There is a ton of discussion online on this issue.

If you have a big case, you may as well use a reservoir. WoodButcher's idea about the res and t-line is good. If I were doing that, I would install the t-line specifically for draining - at the bottom of the loop facing downward. Just use the res cap for filling.

I would hold off on the ducting until the system is up and running on water. With that in place, you may decide you don't need the duct.

DE

 

[Fullmetal Chocobo]

Originally posted by: dedwards
I would hold off on the ducting until the system is up and running on water. With that in place, you may decide you don't need the duct.

DE

Regarding the idea of ducting, isn't it true that whether I am using air or water, the heat dissappated off of the CPUs is the same? The problem is that this machine puts out a lot of heat into the room, so I want to get that heat out of the room to maximize cooling in the room.

EDIT: Nice link, thanks.

 

[dedwards]

I'm sure you're right about the total amount of heat being the same. But the duct could be treated as a separate project, after the rest of the build is completed.

Here's another crazy idea for you. My first HTPC was a P4, which was nasty loud and hot. So I decided to water-cool it. Given the wiring I already had in place, it was relatively easy to build an external water-cooling enclosure and run the tubes through the wall into a closet area on the other side. You can put blasting fans on that sucker, and get rid of the noise AND the heat altogether.

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DE

 

[Fullmetal Chocobo]

Originally posted by: dedwards
I'm sure you're right about the total amount of heat being the same. But the duct could be treated as a separate project, after the rest of the build is completed.

Here's another crazy idea for you. My first HTPC was a P4, which was nasty loud and hot. So I decided to water-cool it. Given the wiring I already had in place, it was relatively easy to build an external water-cooling enclosure and run the tubes through the wall into a closet area on the other side. You can put blasting fans on that sucker, and get rid of the noise AND the heat altogether.

Pic1
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DE

Oh, sorry, yes. The water cooling of the machine, and the ducting of the heat out are going to be completely different. (as seperated in time by atleast a year or two). Nice water cooling mod there. hehehe.

 

[WoodButcher]

Originally posted by: dedwards
I'm sure you're right about the total amount of heat being the same. But the duct could be treated as a separate project, after the rest of the build is completed.

Here's another crazy idea for you. My first HTPC was a P4, which was nasty loud and hot. So I decided to water-cool it. Given the wiring I already had in place, it was relatively easy to build an external water-cooling enclosure and run the tubes through the wall into a closet area on the other side. You can put blasting fans on that sucker, and get rid of the noise AND the heat altogether.

Pic1
Pic2
Pic3
Pic4
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Pic6

DE

Same deal as I did, just different,,,,,

 

[aigomorla]

Originally posted by: WoodButcher
I use both a res and T line. The res is great on startup , removing air and filling. The T also can do this and helps when bleediing off air but makes it easy and fast to drain and flush.
Ducting to another room will be a prob though, you could run a long loop w/ a second pump as I did but you still have air from the board and the loop is more work to care for. If your interested I have a picture or two.
Moving just the air with ducting is possible but you would need high flow fans which would make it noisy, think of your bath fan, that is a 4" duct. If you use tin duct pipe not flex-pipe you can use slower fans. Google HVAC / airflow

woodbutcher always has good advice when it comes to watercooling


However, instead of a T-line in your case, you could just setup a petcock drain. It would be faster and easier to drain your system incase of emergencys. However, i dont see the need to drain my system very often. Only when im bored, or i get a new toy to install in my loop.



ALSO TO SAVE EVERYONE THAT DIDNT READ MY STICKY ON WATERCOOLING. DO NOT FLUSH THE RADIATOR AS LISTED IN DEDWARDS POST!!!!!

i am typing this in CAPS because its VERY important that you do not vinegar on any of your components. Read my sticky on BAD BAD results that happen when you follow this. There was a complete thread and arguements on max racers recomendation. The consensus was use Alcohol to rinse the rads and blocks. NOT VINEGAR.

Also MARCI owner of thermochill, clearly stated, in some cases where people vinegar diped, THE SOLDER on the radiator would melt clean off and start to LEAK. <--- there goes your 100+ dollar rad if its thermochill :X


so heavens NO Vinegar. Read my sticky on coolant and cleaning. I spent a lot of time on it for people like you.


Also as for low maintence equiptment. There is no such thing minus the CPU block. All rads need to be blown free of dust once in a while. Adding filters only prolongs your maintence, however it wont ever completely get rid of it.

Water will always evaporate. The tubes are allow the coolant to evap slowly. So your always going to have to top off every 2-3 months. This is about given.

The only area where you have control is the CPU. DO NOT GET IMPINGMENT heads blocks. This would be like the Storm, and TDX with accelerators. Or Cathars G4 <-- but i highly doubt u have that.

Stay with low restriction parts, like apogeeGT or fusion. Also, if your seriously lazy you can throw in a pentec filter. They sell them at almost all stores that carry h2o products. That would help your coolant stay cleaner longer.

Lastly, i seriously hope your considering a multi pump, or IWAKI RD30 class pump for this project. Thats a lot of tubing your going to be using, and thats going to require a ton of head pressure for things to work right.

 

[Fullmetal Chocobo]

RE aigomorla (I won't quote you aigomorla, as it's a long post )

I'm sketching this out in my head (with very little notion of what I'm doing), but I will be using blocks either like this Apogee GT Extreme or this Apogee 1U-server, depending on how the lines are to be configured, and how the hoses will be going to the blocks. But my loop would be something to the effect of a large resevoir -> pump -> split off to two CPU blocks -> each CPU block to a radiator -> both radiators return to resevoir. Or is the split completely unneeded, and just have the CPU blocks daisy chained?

The blocks are going to be cooling 2.66GHz Xeons, not overclocked ever (the mobo doesn't even allow it), but these things produce large amounts of heat. I want them stable.

Is it possible to daisy chain resevoirs (one on top of another, top feeding to the bottom), with the bottom one feeding the loop? From there have the fill valve going to the second or top resevoir. Basically to ensure there is enough water. I understand it has to be topped off here and there, but just a though. Let me know if it's stupid or not.

 

[aigomorla]

why dont you save the money and get regular apogee's for the CPU? If your not overclocking, you wont see that much of a performance loss compared to the GT or GTX. At most 2C for almost 20dollars extra PER block.

Dual loop your system. use 2x120mm radiators, and set up 2 independant loops for each CPU. You wont get better performance and cooling by single looping a large system like that.

You can share reserviors for both loops, however i highly recomend independant small ones. Remember, those rad's should cool the liquid fairly close to room temp. So having a large reservior wont help matters any. Your still required to reflush your system after 1 yr.

I would setup a third loop for any redunant stuff like GFX and chipset. You have the case to support a magnitude of things. If cooling and noise is a issue, splitting up the loop is far easier then try to optimize it in a single.


Also its really hard to cool 2 cpu's in a row like that without a heat exchanger in the middle. Also the flow required for your setup would be too great on even a dual pump layout. The case alone im estimating ~15 to 20 feet in tubing. Its far easier to split the CPU's up in 2 independant loops. And then focus on your GPU and NB on a third.

So to answer your last statement, to make a daisy chain work for the CPU so both xeons will have near same temps, would be

Pump->Rad-> Cpu -> Rad2 -> Cpu2 -> Pump 2 <--- just imaging the tubes required to run that chain Hence why i say 2 indpendant loops > 1 single loop

if you did Pump -> RAD -> CPU -> CPU <--- i promise you, your second CPU will have 2-5C higher temps then your first one. Only because the coolant gets heated up the most at the CPU.



Also dont watercool the memory. The ram which have memory watercooling are made of ALU. You dont want to mix metals. The GTX is also made out of alu, but its zinc plated. So its protected. The RAM is a completely different story.

 

[Fullmetal Chocobo]

Okay... I'm not sure about the NB as far as if it will get cooling or not. Probably not. And for the video, my video card requirements are nil, so I'll be looking for something that doesn't create much heat. This machine is going to be put in a corner, closet, or (later) an insulated shed, and left there crunching and storing data.

The RAM, NB, and video will be cooling with the 92mm bank of intake fans on the left side of the case plus the 120mm exhaust.

Okay, doing the two independent loops, would there be anything wrong with using two AC pumps, and just having the PSU and both AC pumps plugged into a UPS for the system?

I appreciate your help--it's nice to get somewhere on the plans / research for this project. After I get an idea of what I need, then comes the parts research.

EDIT: On the regular Apogee's, all I can find are the "extreme" ones... I am still looking though.

 

[aigomorla]

nope it pump being AC wouldnt matter at all as long as you dont forget to turn them on.


You could also add the video and NB to one of your CPU loops if those requirements are nil.

But definitely isolate each cpu by itself.

And about the apogee... blah, jabtech ran out of them. Its probably in your best interest to step up to a GT now that you cant pick up a apogee for ~30 dollars. :\

ummm just a note, dont bother looking at the 1U versions unless your using a U chasie. The GT is a tad bit more and offers better cooling.

 

[Gannon]

Originally posted by: Fullmetal Chocobo
I'm working on the planning stage of a new project. I would like to make my monster case a water cooling setup. My main goal on this machine will be to minimize heat into the surrounding area (considering exhausting the air from the radiator to outside the house/room/etc), and creating a water cooling setup that requires very little maintenance, and easy of performing any necessary maintenance.

As I already have the motherboard, RAM, and processors, I will likely use my dual Xeon 604 setup. My case is a huge Enermax FS2300BB 23-bay server case, so I will keep all of the components in the case.

1) How would I go about doing a water cooling loop that minimizes the need for maintenance (replacing the water, etc)?

2) What setup is ideal for ease of maintenance?

Thanks for any help or suggestions that will guide my research...

Watercooling is fairly "high maintenance" only if you buy the wrong equipment or if you are obsessed with performance.

If you're going to go with watercooling:

If you want maximum performance (need to squeeze out every last %) then build it yourself from good parts.

Also... Do not buy waterblocks that use plastic barbs or cheap plastic casings that flex.

I own a swiftech storm and I like its performance but I hate it's design: The thing leaks like a bitch, most of the time its simply micro leaking, pooled drops of water that take hours to form and then due to gravity are pulled down onto equipment before they can evaporate.

If you want a low maintenance watercooling setup, get a pre-designed kit. If you're simply interested in quiet computing a cheap watercooling kit will do, if you want maximum performance then spend the extra money on a decent one.

 

[nealh]

Originally posted by: Gannon

Originally posted by: Fullmetal Chocobo
I'm working on the planning stage of a new project. I would like to make my monster case a water cooling setup. My main goal on this machine will be to minimize heat into the surrounding area (considering exhausting the air from the radiator to outside the house/room/etc), and creating a water cooling setup that requires very little maintenance, and easy of performing any necessary maintenance.

As I already have the motherboard, RAM, and processors, I will likely use my dual Xeon 604 setup. My case is a huge Enermax FS2300BB 23-bay server case, so I will keep all of the components in the case.

1) How would I go about doing a water cooling loop that minimizes the need for maintenance (replacing the water, etc)?

2) What setup is ideal for ease of maintenance?

Thanks for any help or suggestions that will guide my research...

Watercooling is fairly "high maintenance" only if you buy the wrong equipment or if you are obsessed with performance.

If you're going to go with watercooling:

If you want maximum performance (need to squeeze out every last %) then build it yourself from good parts.

Also... Do not buy waterblocks that use plastic barbs or cheap plastic casings that flex.

I own a swiftech storm and I like its performance but I hate it's design: The thing leaks like a bitch, most of the time its simply micro leaking, pooled drops of water that take hours to form and then due to gravity are pulled down onto equipment before they can evaporate.

If you want a low maintenance watercooling setup, get a pre-designed kit. If you're simply interested in quiet computing a cheap watercooling kit will do, if you want maximum performance then spend the extra money on a decent one.

HUH??..the block should never leak...not sure why yours is but I have one and there is no leaking..I would never run my setup if so, you would be a fool(sorry) to run a leaking system...I even swapped out barbs to metal one as get tubing over the plastic ones is a total b*tch

Have you check to make sure the barbs are in place properly and rubber o-rings are fitting properly? did you take the block apart ...if so did you tighten back down properly?

 

[aigomorla]

Neal is correct.

If you use the Oring properly leaking is absolutely impossible. Just look at the design and you'll understand.

If your leaking bad, i found that applying vasaline on your ruber o ring helps it seal better. You can try that if you cant fix your barb.

 

[dedwards]

@aigomorla - can you post some links to the discussions on the evils of vinegar usage?

Just looking to expand my horizons here,

DE

 

[aigomorla]

Originally posted by: dedwards
@aigomorla - can you post some links to the discussions on the evils of vinegar usage?

Just looking to expand my horizons here,

DE

Text

 

[Gannon]

Originally posted by: nealh
Have you check to make sure the barbs are in place properly and rubber o-rings are fitting properly? did you take the block apart ...if so did you tighten back down properly?

Yes, yes and yes. I've taken the block apart and put it back together, I still get extremely slow leaks, I have the problem fixed for now with temporary solution, but ultimately this wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't for the screw in barbs. The leak is from the screw ridges not the o-rings. Either : the o-rings do not seal correctly, or the plastic has been flexed too wide for the size of the o-rings. I will try the other posters suggestion by using vaseline see how it works out.

 

[Gannon]

Originally posted by: aigomorla
Neal is correct.

If you use the Oring properly leaking is absolutely impossible. Just look at the design and you'll understand.

If your leaking bad, i found that applying vasaline on your ruber o ring helps it seal better. You can try that if you cant fix your barb.

I'll show you a video of a leaking storm with properly fitted o-rings. trust me I've rebuilt the thing numerous times and I still get micro leask whenever I sit the case upright (i.e. not perfeclty flat with the barbs pointing straight up, versus sideways in a standard case).

I've broken a barb trying to get it on "tight enough" with the o-rings and everything and it still leaked, I can only conclude that plastic casing they used was not ideal and thats why they discontinued the storm because they put storms out that would leak slowly even with o-rings that hosed peoples equipment... I know because I lost my 8800 to a slow leak from the storm that took weeks to form (i.e. for the first few weeks there was no leaking at all, then all of a sudden it would begin to drip). I'm sure I got a bum storm or at least the parts are slightly off enough to cause the leaks.

I will try the vaseline thing thats probably what I need, I've since found a "temporary" solution anyway. I know the the o-rings are there and are properly installed. I may just have gotten a bad storm. But either way it wouldn't have been a problem if they hadn't used screw in barbs in the first place, thats the whole reason they gave you o-rings: It's not completely water tight to begin with, thats probably why they discontinued the storm briefly and many of their other waterblocks use a different design where there you can't choose and switch barbs (more metal then plastic, if plastic at all). My old bigwater SE's waterblock was better designed then the storm, sorry to say it. Storm is good for performance, bad for leaks because of the plastic casing. I'm certain I'm not the only one with a storm that has caused problems because of the plastic they used for the casing.

 

[WoodButcher]

Gannon, teflon tape or pipe dope on the male threads will end your leaks unless you cracked the cap / female portion by over-torqueing. You did mention a broken nipple.

 

[aigomorla]

Originally posted by: Gannon

Originally posted by: aigomorla
Neal is correct.

If you use the Oring properly leaking is absolutely impossible. Just look at the design and you'll understand.

If your leaking bad, i found that applying vasaline on your ruber o ring helps it seal better. You can try that if you cant fix your barb.

I'll show you a video of a leaking storm with properly fitted o-rings. trust me I've rebuilt the thing numerous times and I still get micro leask whenever I sit the case upright (i.e. not perfeclty flat with the barbs pointing straight up, versus sideways in a standard case).

I've broken a barb trying to get it on "tight enough" with the o-rings and everything and it still leaked, I can only conclude that plastic casing they used was not ideal and thats why they discontinued the storm because they put storms out that would leak slowly even with o-rings that hosed peoples equipment... I know because I lost my 8800 to a slow leak from the storm that took weeks to form (i.e. for the first few weeks there was no leaking at all, then all of a sudden it would begin to drip). I'm sure I got a bum storm or at least the parts are slightly off enough to cause the leaks.

I will try the vaseline thing thats probably what I need, I've since found a "temporary" solution anyway. I know the the o-rings are there and are properly installed. I may just have gotten a bad storm. But either way it wouldn't have been a problem if they hadn't used screw in barbs in the first place, thats the whole reason they gave you o-rings: It's not completely water tight to begin with, thats probably why they discontinued the storm briefly and many of their other waterblocks use a different design where there you can't choose and switch barbs (more metal then plastic, if plastic at all). My old bigwater SE's waterblock was better designed then the storm, sorry to say it. Storm is good for performance, bad for leaks because of the plastic casing. I'm certain I'm not the only one with a storm that has caused problems because of the plastic they used for the casing.

or better yet. Go on XTREMESYSTEMS.COM and then Forums. And find GABE. Tell him your exact issue and he'll most likely mail you out a new storm as a replacement.

GABE = owner of swiftech and a regular over at xs forums.

But ive used the storm for 2 yrs now. And its never leaked on me. Your block might be defective, or you overtightend with metal barbs.

PS. your not suposed to use metal barbs on a plastic base. Incase you didnt know. :X You risk grinding your threads down when you overtighten.


Lastly, this is kinda OT, but im just curious, has anyone clogged there storm? I honestly cant think of a time where i actually clogged it. :\

 

[tylerdustin2008]

Id reply with some help Taz, but i am to lazy......... You know how it is, long days of work!

 

[Gannon]

Originally posted by: aigomorla

Originally posted by: Gannon

Originally posted by: aigomorla
Neal is correct.

If you use the Oring properly leaking is absolutely impossible. Just look at the design and you'll understand.

If your leaking bad, i found that applying vasaline on your ruber o ring helps it seal better. You can try that if you cant fix your barb.

I'll show you a video of a leaking storm with properly fitted o-rings. trust me I've rebuilt the thing numerous times and I still get micro leask whenever I sit the case upright (i.e. not perfeclty flat with the barbs pointing straight up, versus sideways in a standard case).

I've broken a barb trying to get it on "tight enough" with the o-rings and everything and it still leaked, I can only conclude that plastic casing they used was not ideal and thats why they discontinued the storm because they put storms out that would leak slowly even with o-rings that hosed peoples equipment... I know because I lost my 8800 to a slow leak from the storm that took weeks to form (i.e. for the first few weeks there was no leaking at all, then all of a sudden it would begin to drip). I'm sure I got a bum storm or at least the parts are slightly off enough to cause the leaks.

I will try the vaseline thing thats probably what I need, I've since found a "temporary" solution anyway. I know the the o-rings are there and are properly installed. I may just have gotten a bad storm. But either way it wouldn't have been a problem if they hadn't used screw in barbs in the first place, thats the whole reason they gave you o-rings: It's not completely water tight to begin with, thats probably why they discontinued the storm briefly and many of their other waterblocks use a different design where there you can't choose and switch barbs (more metal then plastic, if plastic at all). My old bigwater SE's waterblock was better designed then the storm, sorry to say it. Storm is good for performance, bad for leaks because of the plastic casing. I'm certain I'm not the only one with a storm that has caused problems because of the plastic they used for the casing.

or better yet. Go on XTREMESYSTEMS.COM and then Forums. And find GABE. Tell him your exact issue and he'll most likely mail you out a new storm as a replacement.

GABE = owner of swiftech and a regular over at xs forums.

But ive used the storm for 2 yrs now. And its never leaked on me. Your block might be defective, or you overtightend with metal barbs.

PS. your not suposed to use metal barbs on a plastic base. Incase you didnt know. :X You risk grinding your threads down when you overtighten.


Lastly, this is kinda OT, but im just curious, has anyone clogged there storm? I honestly cant think of a time where i actually clogged it. :\

I didn't use metal barbs in a plastic case, I was saying that the other waterblocks who don't use screw in barbs (i.e. the barbs are welded to the block, it's all one piece) do not have any chances of leaking like my storm did. All the leaks came from the where o-ring is junctioned on the storm.

 

[aigomorla]

Originally posted by: Gannon

Originally posted by: aigomorla

Originally posted by: Gannon

Originally posted by: aigomorla
Neal is correct.

If you use the Oring properly leaking is absolutely impossible. Just look at the design and you'll understand.

If your leaking bad, i found that applying vasaline on your ruber o ring helps it seal better. You can try that if you cant fix your barb.

I'll show you a video of a leaking storm with properly fitted o-rings. trust me I've rebuilt the thing numerous times and I still get micro leask whenever I sit the case upright (i.e. not perfeclty flat with the barbs pointing straight up, versus sideways in a standard case).

I've broken a barb trying to get it on "tight enough" with the o-rings and everything and it still leaked, I can only conclude that plastic casing they used was not ideal and thats why they discontinued the storm because they put storms out that would leak slowly even with o-rings that hosed peoples equipment... I know because I lost my 8800 to a slow leak from the storm that took weeks to form (i.e. for the first few weeks there was no leaking at all, then all of a sudden it would begin to drip). I'm sure I got a bum storm or at least the parts are slightly off enough to cause the leaks.

I will try the vaseline thing thats probably what I need, I've since found a "temporary" solution anyway. I know the the o-rings are there and are properly installed. I may just have gotten a bad storm. But either way it wouldn't have been a problem if they hadn't used screw in barbs in the first place, thats the whole reason they gave you o-rings: It's not completely water tight to begin with, thats probably why they discontinued the storm briefly and many of their other waterblocks use a different design where there you can't choose and switch barbs (more metal then plastic, if plastic at all). My old bigwater SE's waterblock was better designed then the storm, sorry to say it. Storm is good for performance, bad for leaks because of the plastic casing. I'm certain I'm not the only one with a storm that has caused problems because of the plastic they used for the casing.

or better yet. Go on XTREMESYSTEMS.COM and then Forums. And find GABE. Tell him your exact issue and he'll most likely mail you out a new storm as a replacement.

GABE = owner of swiftech and a regular over at xs forums.

But ive used the storm for 2 yrs now. And its never leaked on me. Your block might be defective, or you overtightend with metal barbs.

PS. your not suposed to use metal barbs on a plastic base. Incase you didnt know. :X You risk grinding your threads down when you overtighten.


Lastly, this is kinda OT, but im just curious, has anyone clogged there storm? I honestly cant think of a time where i actually clogged it. :\

I didn't use metal barbs in a plastic case, I was saying that the other waterblocks who don't use screw in barbs (i.e. the barbs are welded to the block, it's all one piece) do not have any chances of leaking like my storm did. All the leaks came from the where o-ring is junctioned on the storm.

Then i think back to my original statement. Your storm was defective. And you should of notified swiftech on your leak test that the block was defective. Id still recomend contacting gabe, or swfitech directly. I realized if you go throw XS system forums to request help, its also a lot faster then going though there standard customer service

<3 XS forums

try to get your block rma'd thats the best option i have for ya.

 

[Marci]

Also MARCI owner of thermochill, clearly stated, in some cases where people vinegar diped, THE SOLDER on the radiator would melt clean off and start to LEAK. <--- there goes your 100+ dollar rad if its thermochill :X

Sorry for bumping a decrepid topic, but need to correct somethin'... misquoting leads to misinformation... and a customer was just complaining about our rads due to the above, trying to say his radiator was falling apart after reading the above, when all he needed was some PTFE tape on the barbs.

Vinegar is FINE to use for cleaning your rad, as long as you don't leave it in there for days on end. A few hours then a rinse is absolutely fine. However, that doesn't change the fact that it's unnecessary and hotwater will do the job. Vinegar on it's own WILL NOT cause any longterm damage to the rad. It will cause oxidisation of the surface, which when mixed with elements from solder and flux may result in a black tarnish... once done with the vinegar you should be flushing with distilled anyways to remove this oxidisation, and thus remove the "dirty" layer... this is the whole point of cleaning - to strip a fractionally thin surface layer away thus leaving a clean layer beneath...

THAT's what I said... The text regarding solder being destroyed was if people used anything stronger than 24% acetic acid. Vinegar is NOT 24% or stronger... otherwise you wouldn't be using it on foodstuffs....

24% or stronger acetic acid will completely destroy solder - ie: the rad would fall apart. As Creidiki states, pure would severely damage the radiator.

Long n' short, ThermoChill rads can be flushed with Hot Water because we use a water-based flux, so seeing as everyone seems to panic over flux residue (despite all radiators receiving a caustic bath during manufacturing), if you want to give it a flush before use, just run Hot water thru it whilst shaking every now and again, and do it in both directions thru the rad.

A side note - you're also recommending Storm for DualPump users - that all depends on the CPU. Storm only wins on small bare die. If it's an IHS'd chip the FuZion and ApogeeGTX WILL beat it regardless of pumping power. To get better Storm performance, you need the G5 or G7 implementation, both of which are suited to CPUs with larger dies. The G4 implementation as sold by Swiftech doesn't have a large enough cooling patch to cover multi-cores adequately... especially such as Kentsfield.