My take on the whole Big 3 Union thing

[Squisher]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Zorba
Every Union shop I have ever been too or worked at has had a horrible relationship between labor and management. Why do you think the labor keeps it Union? In my opinion, it is the management's responsibility to bridge the gap, but most of the time it seems management just wants to make it worse.

And the counter point is that the Union has been the ones working to make it worse. When a floor worker can tell a plant engineer to piss off because it's almost break time.... you know you have a problem with the Union. Oh, and it wasn't just one guy, none of them seemed to have any respect.



But in all seriousness. There has to be a good faith effort on both sides...but that doesn't seem to be the case for either one from what I've seen.

I have seen it all in my 30 years working in a union. I have seen a hi-lo driver try to kill his boss and I have seen a union member fired for swearing during a conversation, not swearing at someone mind you. There is always a list of work rules along with their punishments published in every contract. Things like insubordination, sabotage, and theft are usually some of the things that are justified reasons for dismissal.

I have always found that you can humble management a lot easier if you go at it in a respectful manner.

 

[ZeGermans]

yes I'm sure it's the UAW's fault and their stupid-high wages that are on par with what the southern workers get and not at all the fact that no one wants to buy an Excursion with 4 dollar gas.

 

[SigArms08]

Originally posted by: ZeGermans
yes I'm sure it's the UAW's fault and their stupid-high wages that are on par with what the southern workers get and not at all the fact that no one wants to buy an Excursion with 4 dollar gas.

Its all bs that the UAW strives to protect: jobs banks, impossible to get rid of the lazy workers, all the damned f-tards known as "committee men" that are paid line worker wages and add nothing to the plant productivity, the division of labor (ie, the 'its not my job attitude'), creating an environment where positions such as that of the janitors are the jobs that everybody strives for (don't do crap all day.....used to be that the position of janitor was where people could start at in a company and then prove themselves and work their way up), etc.

 

[LumbergTech]

Originally posted by: SigArms08

Originally posted by: ZeGermans
yes I'm sure it's the UAW's fault and their stupid-high wages that are on par with what the southern workers get and not at all the fact that no one wants to buy an Excursion with 4 dollar gas.

Its all bs that the UAW strives to protect: jobs banks, impossible to get rid of the lazy workers, all the damned f-tards known as "committee men" that are paid line worker wages and add nothing to the plant productivity, the division of labor (ie, the 'its not my job attitude'), creating an environment where positions such as that of the janitors are the jobs that everybody strives for (don't do crap all day.....used to be that the position of janitor was where people could start at in a company and then prove themselves and work their way up), etc.

i keep hearing about these lazy workers, but i only hear anecdotal evidence of a guy here or there..

if i was being paid that much i would work like a maniac

 

[Mxylplyx]

When I talk employees, I not only talk workers. EVERYONE that promotes and persists this management/labor mistrust should be given the boot, which probably means near everyone on the factory floor that has worked in this environment. My beef with unions is that the mere existence of the union creates an automatic divide within the company, and this divide is destroying the company. I don?t believe a union is necessary anymore in today's highly regulated, and highly competitive work environment. It is a legacy from the past, when manufacturing and farming were the only games in town, and worker abuse was rampant due to the absence of workplace regulation. We owe many of the current regulatory structure to unions of the past, but that doesn?t mean they should be kept around and coddled out of a sense of gratitude, particularly if they are as demanding as the UAW.

Christ, we have gone from unions demanding safety standards and reasonable wages and work weeks, to unions demanding smoking privileges and job banks. They have apparently run their course.

 

[Mxylplyx]

Originally posted by: LumbergTech

Originally posted by: SigArms08

Originally posted by: ZeGermans
yes I'm sure it's the UAW's fault and their stupid-high wages that are on par with what the southern workers get and not at all the fact that no one wants to buy an Excursion with 4 dollar gas.

Its all bs that the UAW strives to protect: jobs banks, impossible to get rid of the lazy workers, all the damned f-tards known as "committee men" that are paid line worker wages and add nothing to the plant productivity, the division of labor (ie, the 'its not my job attitude'), creating an environment where positions such as that of the janitors are the jobs that everybody strives for (don't do crap all day.....used to be that the position of janitor was where people could start at in a company and then prove themselves and work their way up), etc.

i keep hearing about these lazy workers, but i only hear anecdotal evidence of a guy here or there..

if i was being paid that much i would work like a maniac

Probably not if you felt entitled to be making that much.

 

[Ferocious]

My take is that workers should decide for themselves at any given place of employment.

It shouldn't be difficult to form a union if employees want one. AND likewise it shouldn't be difficult to remove one if workers don't want it anymore.

That freedom is very important IMO.

 

[Mxylplyx]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: MxylplyxThe free market is not a monopoly like the government, or industries of the past, that can afford the inefficiencies of a lazy, entitled work force. In a global economy, if you cant keep your costs in line with your competitors, you fail.

Please remember to come back and post when someone on an H-1B or L-1 visa takes your job or when your job gets shipped out to India.

But he's skilled, so skilled a Third Worlder can do what he does for a fraction of the cost.

Look around at the state of American manufacturing. Can you honestly say the unions protected those jobs? I think a better case can be made that unions exacerbated the decline of these industries in America.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Ferocious
My take is that workers should decide for themselves at any given place of employment.

It shouldn't be difficult to form a union if employees want one. AND likewise it shouldn't be difficult to remove one if workers don't want it anymore.

That freedom is very important IMO.

Do you think a person who works at a place should be able to decide whether they want to join a union or not? Should they be able to leave the union at any time without quitting their job?

 

[Mxylplyx]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Ferocious
My take is that workers should decide for themselves at any given place of employment.

It shouldn't be difficult to form a union if employees want one. AND likewise it shouldn't be difficult to remove one if workers don't want it anymore.

That freedom is very important IMO.

Do you think a person who works at a place should be able to decide whether they want to join a union or not? Should they be able to leave the union at any time without quitting their job?

Sounds like that would fall under freedom to me. I also think the company should be free to refuse negotiation with the union, and terminate at will any union member who takes unilateral action that violates company policy.

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

Originally posted by: Mxylplyx

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Ferocious
My take is that workers should decide for themselves at any given place of employment.

It shouldn't be difficult to form a union if employees want one. AND likewise it shouldn't be difficult to remove one if workers don't want it anymore.

That freedom is very important IMO.

Do you think a person who works at a place should be able to decide whether they want to join a union or not? Should they be able to leave the union at any time without quitting their job?

Sounds like that would fall under freedom to me. I also think the company should be free to refuse negotiation with the union, and terminate at will any union member who takes unilateral action that violates company policy.

Unions exert too much power. You don't like union workers and want to let a few go? Strike! You want to hire some non union workers? STRIKE! Do anything and you have the UAW breathing down your neck. Screwed ><

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Ferocious
My take is that workers should decide for themselves at any given place of employment.

It shouldn't be difficult to form a union if employees want one. AND likewise it shouldn't be difficult to remove one if workers don't want it anymore.

That freedom is very important IMO.

Do you think a person who works at a place should be able to decide whether they want to join a union or not? Should they be able to leave the union at any time without quitting their job?

The only thing is you can't force Union members to work besides them. If the Union members don't like it they can walk off the job and ther company can replace them with non Union Workers and the Vendors can replace the Union Workers who refuse toi deal with that company with Non Union workers themselves on down the line. Of course it would probably shut down those companies but you can't force them to work in a free society.

 

[Mxylplyx]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Ferocious
My take is that workers should decide for themselves at any given place of employment.

It shouldn't be difficult to form a union if employees want one. AND likewise it shouldn't be difficult to remove one if workers don't want it anymore.

That freedom is very important IMO.

Do you think a person who works at a place should be able to decide whether they want to join a union or not? Should they be able to leave the union at any time without quitting their job?

The only thing is you can't force Union members to work besides them. If the Union members don't like it they can walk off the job and ther company can replace them with non Union Workers and the Vendors can replace the Union Workers who refuse toi deal with that company with Non Union workers themselves on down the line. Of course it would probably shut down those companies but you can't force them to work in a free society.

Sounds like any other company to me. Refuse to work...get fired. Theres probably some kind of existing UAW agreement covering this though, that the company stupidly signed.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Mxylplyx

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Ferocious
My take is that workers should decide for themselves at any given place of employment.

It shouldn't be difficult to form a union if employees want one. AND likewise it shouldn't be difficult to remove one if workers don't want it anymore.

That freedom is very important IMO.

Do you think a person who works at a place should be able to decide whether they want to join a union or not? Should they be able to leave the union at any time without quitting their job?

The only thing is you can't force Union members to work besides them. If the Union members don't like it they can walk off the job and ther company can replace them with non Union Workers and the Vendors can replace the Union Workers who refuse toi deal with that company with Non Union workers themselves on down the line. Of course it would probably shut down those companies but you can't force them to work in a free society.

Sounds like any other company to me. Refuse to work...get fired. Theres probably some kind of existing UAW agreement covering this though, that the company stupidly signed.

What will happen is the Union will pull all it's members from the job. The Company can fire them but would have almost an impossible task of finding enough qualified workers to replace them. Not only that the Vendors who supply this company would have problems with their Union workers as they'd refuse to deliver to this company. Again the Vendor(s) could fire them but they too would not be able to find enough qualified workers to replace them.

 

[Desturel]

Originally posted by: daniel49
Plant B:
>wages are lower, benefits decreased.
>have been on strike 3 months because mngt. wants a 60 hour week if they feel they need it.
>There premiums just went up 300%, also a reason for the strike.
>Instead of negotiating in good faith mngt. tried to replace them when they went on strike.
>Company is not profitable at this time.

I don't know what Union you are talking about. With IBEW in Maryland (an at will state), if you lose your job, you are able relocated to a new job site. You go to the Union Hall and sign up for a list of jobs with your skills and someone calls you when they find a position. Meanwhile, you collect unemployment from the Union hall for a set amount of time. You make it sound like working in a Union is a bad thing.