My lovely 21" Nokia 445Pro (Trinitron tube) has died. May it RIP. :(

[Jeff7]

Aperature grille, not shadow mask, in my case.

Well if the sharpness decreased, it didn't do it enough to be a bother to me.
But then, I ran my 21" at 1024x768.

I know that Halley's Comet effect. My laptop's display has a really slow response time, probably in the hundreds of milliseconds. But on a CRT? Was that just on older units? (No offense, of course.)

 

[Rubycon]

Originally posted by: Jeff7
Aperature grille, not shadow mask, in my case.

Well if the sharpness decreased, it didn't do it enough to be a bother to me.
But then, I ran my 21" at 1024x768.

I know that Halley's Comet effect. My laptop's display has a really slow response time, probably in the hundreds of milliseconds. But on a CRT? Was that just on older units? (No offense, of course.)

1024x768 on a 21"? Yikes! I guess you would not see the softening. 1600x1200 was pretty standard on all the 21" beasts we used. The SGI ones had the 13W3 connector which had RF characteristics that matched BNC breakouts without the hassle of handling BNC connectors.

Long persistence phosphors = afterglow.

This effect can be demonstrated with a sheet of lumibrite and a UV LED flashlight. It's so significant you can write on it and read it 10 minutes later.

I've seen the radar sweep on the old P33 screens and it's neat to watch - I cannot believe those guys didn't get hypnotized. :Q

The effect you were seeing on the old notebook display was just slow response time.

 

[Jeff7]

So I guess I'm back to the old problem: am I stuck this weekend without my PC? Best Buy isn't expecting the L226WT until as late as May 10th.
Office Max is resistant to price matching, and the Viewsonic is more expensive than the (locally unobtainable) LG monitor.

Are there any other electronics type stores in the Pennsylvania area? I know of Best Buy, Circuit City, Office Max, Office Depot, and Staples.

If not, well, I guess I live with no PC for the weekend and just order online.


Or not.
How's this?It's the L226WTQBF. Is that the same thing?

 

[Macro2]

I have a 445pro and a Dell 21" trinitron crt I was going to replace with LCDs but after all the ghosting talk here I dunno.

Unfortunately, I'm In Florida so the shipping would be like $70?

As for these wide screen LCDs I don't see the point of the widescreen unless you're watching letterbox movies or some game that uses wide. I don't do either. Regular windows looks weird when it's streched, imho.

 

[Rubycon]

Nothing is stretched, you just have more horizontal pixels available. Once you use a widescreen display, 4:3 or 5:4 (gasp) ones just look weird.

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: Rubycon
Nothing is stretched, you just have more horizontal pixels available. Once you use a widescreen display, 4:3 or 5:4 (gasp) ones just look weird.

But what about games that only support the 4:3 or 5:4 ratios? Do they just display with "black bars" on the sides?

 

[Rubycon]

Originally posted by: Jeff7

But what about games that only support the 4:3 or 5:4 ratios? Do they just display with "black bars" on the sides?[/quote]

Turn off scaling = bars. Scaling on = stretched. Most games support 16:10 resolutions or can be patchmodded to.

I would love to have a true 2.35:1 display for working with scope material only.

 

[Jeff7]

I see. I guess that's alright then.
I guess I'll be off to Circuit City. The only thing I find odd about the spec page is that it says the input signal is "RGB Analog."
Analog?

 

[Rubycon]

That would be the old fashioned DB15 VGA connector - Text

 

[Jeff7]

But the same page also says that the connectors are: "15 Pin D-sub, DVI-D."

Are they running analog over the digital connector? Or did someone at LG forget to update their spec page?

Based on a review at Circuit City, maybe the difference is that it includes only a 15-pin D-sub cable. A DVI cable would need to be purchased separate. And boy, CC sure loves to advertise their Monster cables.

 

[Rubycon]

Most have both for compatibility. It should have a DVI cable if it's a retail boxed product.

 

[Jeff7]

But either way, I figure that all LCDs nowadays are designed to take a digital signal, especially on a large expensive display like that.

A review there also said it's the same as the Samsung 226BW. Specs for that say it accepts "Analog RGB, DVI."

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Jeff7

Originally posted by: xtknight
Grab an LG L226WT or a couple for dual-monitor config. They're awesome.

Or get a single NEC 20WMGX2 for the same price.

Ah, our resident LCD expert, it seems.
Might you know what the input lag is like on those LG's? They look nice. They're widescreen, but I guess since they're 22", that should make up for it, should I need to use it in letterbox format.

Input lag is somewhere in the ballpark of 0-16ms. True you can notice it a bit but the main thing you're going to notice is response time coming from a CRT, not input lag. May not even notice the lag at all anyways (I sure don't even though I know it's there). Actually moving the mouse is a tad slower compared to a nice 0 ms CRT but it's a minor quip and not something that bothers me on a daily basis.

I found it at Best Buy, but it lists the pixel response time as 5ms, as opposed to 2ms at Newegg.
Best Buy link

Newegg


Life's not fair. The local Best Buy doesn't have any.

Hm don't know. I can tell you the 20WMGX2 is a tad faster than the L226WT, though. I was testing them side-by-side just yesterday. The 20WMGX2 also reveals more details and is more CRT-like so I may suggest you go for the NEC if you're particular about that stuff. I wouldn't say that for most people it's worth twice the price of a nice, big L226WT but for enthusiasts like you and me, it may be.

P.S. the L226WT does not come with a DVI cable in the box. The NEC 20WMGX2 does. For what it's worth the L226WT looked quite a bit better than the Samsung 226BW I saw in-store.

There's a reason I don't have a CRT on my desk anymore. Despite the fact it has faster response time you just don't get that nice, clear sunny day feeling like you do when looking at an LCD. The clarity is a godsend for your eyes and it feels less stressful. Keep in mind both are quite bright monitors so use them at comfortable settings.

 

[imported_Imp]

Just go with LCD, personally I just can't stand CRTs anymore. Maybe it's because I only use them at school now, but my god, they suck. Contrast and brightness suck, pictures aren't clear and a messy refresh rate will give you a headache. ~Problem amplified by thousands of disrespectful college students changing monitor settings like crazy. I am now on my second LCD: Dell 2407 (first was a nice 17" LG from two years back). Can never go back now.

If you're paranoid about the transition due to response times, viewing angles, try some out at a store. If you really can't stand them, go check out the Nec 20" S-IPS panel. If not, you can probably get a 21" CRT for $50 used locally, check the classifieds.

 

[Jeff7]

If not, you can probably get a 21" CRT for $50 used locally, check the classifieds.

The classifieds here are too often rather sparse in terms of details. "Pentium Computer. Includes monitor. $200." Stuff like that.
I'll post my car for sale sometime and use the same method. "Car. Red. Uses gasoline. $2000"


I'm off to Circuit City soon, and hopefully I'll be coming home with a new LG L226WTQBF monitor, and a non-Monster cable for it.



Alrighty, I'm back from shopping, and I have a new 22" LCD in tow. Time to remove the 70lb corpse from my desk.

I sure hope I'm ok with this $20 Dynex DVI cable from Best Buy. The nice man at Circuit City said that the $80 Monster cable was worth it because, "they're the best."
:roll::laugh:

 

[Jeff7]

It's......it's huge. (No that is not what she said.)
Quick review now, as I haven't had anything to eat since, um, I don't know. Breakfast? It's been awhile.

No, it did not come with a DVI cable, only a scrappy little 15-pin thing.

It's nice. I ran a quick monitor testing program. I see no stuck or dead pixels.

The colors are nice, it's very bright, it looks lovely now at its native resolution (1680x1050). The color temperature looks a bit on the pink side (too cool), I'll see if I can change that in the LCD's menus.

Very sharp text, minimal ghosting (or whatever it is that Rubycon says it is really called), and, and, it's big.

There is some white bleed at the top and bottom edges when it displays a black screen, but not a lot. The contrast is good, too.

Running a program in letterbox mode, such as a fullscreen video, results in a picture measuring 20.25" diagonal, so it's just about the same as having my 21" CRT.
And damn, widescreen movies look nice. The colors are quite well saturated, perhaps even too much so. But I haven't touched any of the controls yet.

Right now, it looks like a darn fine monitor. Thank you everyone for your suggestions.

It's also amazing how much this not-Monster Cable doesn't suck.:laugh:

Well, the first problem has arisen. SageTV stretches the image to fill the entire screen. Hopefully it's just a simple setting in SageTV that needs changing.
And indeed it was. I changed the aspect ratio to 16:10, and all's well.


More updates follow
I just checked out the menu, and adjusted the color temperature to something a bit more blue.
The menu is pretty sparse. There are 5 sections for settings, one of which is just for language and the position of the OSD. The 4 others have controls for:
- brightness, contrast and gamma
- color temperature with a master slider and one for each color
- horizontal and vertical positioning
- clock, phase, and sharpness

That's it, though I don't know that much else is needed.

 

[xtknight]

Give my calibrated settings a try if you want. http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview...?catid=31&threadid=2002685&STARTPAGE=1

Always interesting to see how it works for other people.

Also, there are more color options if you use the other f-Engine settings (press f-Engine button). Though, I used "normal" for f-Engine ("off" setting).

 

[Jeff7]

I'll definitely not be using that brightness. 72 just looks flat out DIM.

My settings:
Brightness: 90
Contrast: 65
Gamma: 0
f-Engine: User
Color: I think it's 7500K
Sharpness: 6

I don't know how all that compares in terms of color accuracy, but it looks good to my eyes.



I'll also have to try Simcity4 without Vsync on. When I scroll side to side, maybe it's the 60Hz refresh rate that's causing it, but the screen flickers during that scroll, reminiscent of a flickering CRT. Now I know that LCDs don't "refresh" but I wonder that it might have to do with Vsync. I also don't know how much higher I can drive this screen's refresh rate, so I'll just try it without vsync.

It also took some tweaking to get SC4 to run in widescreen mode.
My commandline for it is:
"C:\Program Files\Maxis\SimCity 4 Deluxe\Apps\SimCity 4.exe" -CustomResolution:enabled -r1680x1050x32 -f -introff

Then it would finally cooperate.

Homeworld2 looks a lot easier:
"C:\Program Files\Sierra\Homeworld2\Bin\Release\Homeworld2.exe" -w 1680 -h 1050

 

[pm]

Originally posted by: Imp
Just go with LCD, personally I just can't stand CRTs anymore. Maybe it's because I only use them at school now, but my god, they suck. Contrast and brightness suck, pictures aren't clear and a messy refresh rate will give you a headache.

There's a huge difference between a 21" professional-grade CRT designed for CAD engineering work and a cheap 17" CRT. High-end CRT's have several advantages over high-end LCD's - you can change the resolution and the image stays crisp. The image response is faster, there is no ghosting, the colors are brighter and more accurate. The best CRT's are arguably still better than the best LCD's in terms of image quality.

But CRT's are heavy, power-hungry, take up a lot of desk space, are limited to about 22" by economics and physics and have basically no resale value at all at this point. I agree with the majority who say that LCD's are a better option at this point - but I disagree with anyone who says that CRT's ahave worse picture quality compared to LCD's.


The whole thing reminds me of solid-state amplifiers and tube amplifiers. There was a long time after transistor-based amplifiers were released that people said the older, hotter, less reliable tube-based amplifiers sounded better. There were debates over the "warm sounds" of tube-based amps vs. the "dry harsh sounds of solid-state amps. And to this day, there are still people who think that tubes sound better. CRT's are on their way out, but I still think they make a better image... even if I think nowadays the tube-amp guys are crazy.

 

[Rubycon]

I will say the LCD's were a godsend in the area of vibration. I loved the improvement of the vertically flat aperture grille (aka "xtron") tubes - but the bass would make them about as hard to read as a beach towel with a Dilbert comic printed on it - flapping in a force ten gale. :laugh:

The NEC 21XP proved to be the most robust model in this regard, but boy was it heavy.

For shipboard use, the LCD prevails. It's so much easier to keep still compared to a CRT that has the stability of a window air conditioner. :Q

My biggest gripe with the Dell 3007 is some have bleeding near the edges. No dead pixels but I do have one that has a few leaks due to an encounter with some class IV laser radiation. :Q

Don't even get me started about tubes. Yes they distort the sound but in a pleasant way. The coupling of the output transformer and the speaker array's frequency-impedance curve tends to more desirable. (dynamic moving coil speakers) With a true ribbon radiator, the extremely stout regulation of Mr. Krell or Levinson does wonders and is preferred for this type of loudspeaker.

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: Rubycon
Don't even get me started about tubes. Yes they distort the sound but in a pleasant way. The coupling of the output transformer and the speaker array's frequency-impedance curve tends to more desirable. (dynamic moving coil speakers) With a true ribbon radiator, the extremely stout regulation of Mr. Krell or Levinson does wonders and is preferred for this type of loudspeaker.

But see, in those days, people had drugs. Those distortions were evened out by the distortions in the listener's brain.
Once the drug use tapered off, this sound was heard for what it was, and so development of the transistor began.


I'm just waiting for OLED displays to get as cheap as LCDs are now. If OLEDs have response time anywhere near regular LEDs, "ghosting" should not be a problem at all. They seem like they have the potential to sway even the most die-hard CRT fans.



Actually, I am noticing some eyestrain now. I'll try the brightness at 72.
Yeah, how does that work - I got an LCD, said to be great for eyestrain. My eyes hurt worse now than they ever did when I used a CRT. (They never hurt with my CRT.) Go figure.
It could be the higher res. I ran my 21" at 1024x768, now I'm effectively forced to run 1680x1050, so everything's tiny. Couple with that the fact that my glasses are at least 3 years old. My eyes feel like they're having trouble focusing on the smaller stuff. I'm nearsighted, but the range of what qualifies as "near" is pretty small. Once something gets beyond about a foot from my face, I start to lose focus.


Update: Simcity4, extended run.
Here, I could really see the difference between this LCD and my old monitor. The colors were really different. Green in particular looked quite undersaturated. After toying around with the settings a lot, I got close, but it was still not exactly like I remembered. I also still get that "flickering" effect. It's not just in my head either - I held up my hand and just looked at the light reflecting off of it as I scrolled across my city. The light hitting my hand flickered, and it looked like a sucky old 60Hz CRT. It might even be a bit lower, perhaps 40-50Hz.

My settings now:
Brightness: 65
Contrast: 80
Gamma: -50 (This makes jumps in increments of 50?:confused
f-Engine: Normal
Color: I think it's 7500K
Sharpness: 5

 

[Rubycon]

Could be too bright too...

I'm fortunate to be nearsighted. I spend lots of time on a 15.4" TFT at 1920x1200 using small (96dpi) fonts! EVERYONE asks me how I can read it. hehe

You can adjust the font size to 125 dpi. I like the appearance of the text better at this setting HOWEVER I have a few programs that totally freak out if the dpi setting is anything other than 96. There's a fix - newer version but it's $72,000. Good thing my eyes are ok with 96.

 

[0roo0roo]

vista supposedly does font scaling better. xp pretty much bungles it, i do use large font size too. most programs work, others just have window layouts that don't quite work

 

[imported_Imp]

Originally posted by: pm

There's a huge difference between a 21" professional-grade CRT designed for CAD engineering work and a cheap 17" CRT. High-end CRT's have several advantages over high-end LCD's - you can change the resolution and the image stays crisp. The image response is faster, there is no ghosting, the colors are brighter and more accurate. The best CRT's are arguably still better than the best LCD's in terms of image quality.

But CRT's are heavy, power-hungry, take up a lot of desk space, are limited to about 22" by economics and physics and have basically no resale value at all at this point. I agree with the majority who say that LCD's are a better option at this point - but I disagree with anyone who says that CRT's ahave worse picture quality compared to LCD's.

Well, technically speaking, I agree that you are probably 100% right. However, in my experience with hundreds of CRTs over the years (school, work, work in IT job), I have never liked CRTs. I don't care how good they are technically, I subjectively hate them in terms of image quality due to the aforementioned issues and grainy picture. Maybe I've just never seen a properly callibrated display, but if a non-callibrated LCD looks better, then whatever. Also, it doesn't really matter what professional grades can do to me since I doubt I'll ever use one or glance at one for more than a minute.

 

[Jeff7]

I just ran The Falling Sand game. Ugh.
The various falling things no longer look like they fall slowly and smoothly. They flicker en route. I hope I don't have to go through the hassle of returning this thing and then seeking out another 445Pro. Darn half-baked technology.
Try it out yourself on the web-based version. Everything looks fine initially. But try filling up half the screen with something that falls. As the simulation slows down due to the increased computational load, all the particles begin to flicker.


I also find it difficult to read text while it's scrolling. If I scroll through the forum pages, the words get kind of muddled as I scroll, so it's tough to track the text as it moves. It seems to leave little short-lived trails behind.

This page has a lot of interesting stuff on LCDs, including links concerning flickering effects in LCDs.

Here's a good demo of how the viewing angle really isn't all it's cracked up to be. At normal viewing distance, the red squares at the top of the screen look nice and red. Toward the bottom, they're salmon, and approaching pink. The 2d2d2d patches look like squares in a contrast test. That gradient is very obvious.
Oh OLED, where are you?

QuakeIII - looks just fine. A quick .cfg file tweak sets it straight in terms of doing widescreen mode. Smooth image, no flicker, all's well. Still don't know what to do about SC4 though.

Might there be anything in nVidia's Advanced Timing section that could help with this flickering issue?