My ISP shut off my internet last night because...

[ubercaffeinated]

This post is a semi vent, and "semi what do I do?", post.

My ISP shut off my internet last night because of, "suspicious virus-like or p2p activity on the line". Now I keep my machines well protected and I scan for viruses/spyware frequently, so I know they didn't shut off my internet because of that. They didn't specifically accuse me of using p2p, and they used the blanket "viruses, trojans, spywares, or p2p" clause for the reason as to why they needed to suspend my usage.

Now, to be completely clear, I don't use Kazaa or Limeware or anything to download anything illegal. In fact, I don't download anything illegally, period. What I do use is bittorrent, but definitely not for any copyrighted materials. No movies, no cds, etc. However, my ISP summarily told me, don't use p2p, or else, and that they'd be "monitoring usage" to make sure. After giving me the warning, they reinstated service.

Clearly, if I had a choice, I could switch ISPs if they pull this stuff again, but I don't. The ISP I'm using right now is built into my neighborhood (fttp), and I pay for it through my association fees. There's no way I can just not decide to pay for the service itself anymore. Obviously, I could just stop torrenting, but if that was my choice, I wouldn't even bother posting this message. Is there any way to continue torrenting? I'm getting worried now because my brother and I play WoW, and blizzard updates their games through none other than bt. Stopping BT usage also disconnect me from an entire community of other users as well. Short of paying for a separate ISP, what can I do?

 

[spidey07]

well they said P2P behavior, so that's pretty much why.

But given your situation I'd call and plead your case. The rub is its their network and they dictate what you can use it for.

 

[ColKurtz]

P2P in general, and bittorrent specifically, accounts for a large percentage of many ISP's bandwidth. If you download a lot of data, they would probably prefer you go elsewhere anyway so I would stop until you get things smoothed out. Spidey probably has the best advice which is to call them. You're probably at the mercy of how reasonable they are.

You might also want to look into the legality of them booting you, since your community access is probably contractually different than an individual user. If you have access to the community contract, and it doesn't say anything about prohibiting P2P/bittorrent, then you're probably OK. But getting an educated answer to this would probably require a visit to a lawyer, whose fee would probably buy several months of a competitor's broadband access.

 

[user1234]

p2p ? even ftp is p2p, is that not allowed ??? if they're trying to prevent you from using it illegaly, you should tell them you are not. If they're trying to get rid of you because you consume a lot of bandwidth, tell them they can't do that. Either way, they should not be able to cut you off. Check your user agreement, then talk to them, and threaten with legal action, since they can't ban you if you haven't done anytihng which violates the user agreeement (like illegal downloading).

 

[n0cmonkey]

If you're not getting anything illegal, what are you downloading that would make them want to send you a warning? The occassional patch through BT probably isn't enough to raise the ire of an ISP...

Blizzard should offer FTP/HTTP access for people too, BT just isn't acceptable.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: user1234
p2p ? even ftp is p2p, is that not allowed ??? if they're trying to prevent you from using it illegaly, you should tell them you are not. If they're trying to get rid of you because you consume a lot of bandwidth, tell them they can't do that. Either way, they should not be able to cut you off.

dude, its their network - of course they can tell you whatever they want to tell you. What, next you want the power company to give you all the power you can consume without charging/repurcusions? Of course they can cut you off. ITS THEIR NETWORK, YOU ARE A CUSTOMER, THEY PROVIDE A SERVICE WITH TERMS - DON'T LIKE THE TERMS, DON'T USE THE SERVICE

FTP is not peer-2-peer.

geez, its like everybody thinks bandwidth is a right/free. They have no idea the amount of cost involved with running a network.

Its posts like these that make me really disgusted.

I'm not attacking you user1234, its just the conception that bandwidth is free that makes my job oh so impossible. We pay for that stuff, there are profit margins involved and models we use. Those that consume more than a "typical" 1000 people need to get off the network - we don't want them.

 

[ubercaffeinated]

Well, I talked to a nicer guy today, and he basically told me to tone down the bw usage, and that they'd turn a blind eye to any p2p stuff.

 

[user1234]

so they're just using the "suspicious p2p activity" as an excuse to put limits on your usage, because you've been consuming too much bandwidth ? I guess that's what you're saying, right ? well, I'm not aware of any bandwidth limitations in my broadband connection user agreement, for example, and I haven't heard of anything like it. I understand that some network adminstrators (spidey might possibly ne one of them) might feel overly possesive about their bandwidth, and that all hell will break loose if poeple will start to consume as much as they can (sort of like an nfl team hitting an all you can eat restaurant), but dude - wake up, if there is no agreed upon limitation, you can use as much as you get. If ISP have a problem with this model, they can change offer different account types, where people pay according to the bandwidth they use, or that there many tier of usage they could choose from. How would you feel if the cell phone company cut you off because you've been talking on the phone all night with your unlimited night minutes ? and don't worry about draconian scare tactics even ones written in some disclosure - if it clearly violates your rights as a consumer, it's illegal and unenforcable.

 

[thriemus]

Start downloading a linux iso image using bittorrent and then if they stop your connection you can contact your lawyer. Also contact whatever governing body you have in the USA for telecommunications (in the uk its oftel) via a written letter/email stating what has happened. Also that you you believe that this is an invasion of you human rights to privacy as the ISP is monitoring your usage for no good reason. People need to stop taking it up the rear from large corparations and start standing up for themselves.

Also read through your ISP's privacy policy and see if they have broken this agreement.

If you were using P2P then I am afraid you have no leg to stand on and your just gonna have to change ISP.

 

[VirtualLarry]

I wonder, could this "association's" bandwidth upstream provider be the cable co, more specifically, comcast? I bet *they* got a letter from their upstream provider, and are passing on the bad news to you, at least that would be my guess. Somehow I just don't see some sort of local condo-network having their own dedicated admin, unless there is some guy like "Newman" from Seinfeld living in the complex, and wants to play the part of the fascist sysadmin. Wait, you said FTTP - who provides residential fiber right now, besides Verizon's FIOS? QWest?

 

[Woodie]

FWIW...Comcast has a bandwidth limitation in their Acceptable Use Policy. Of course they never specify exactly what it is...just that there are limits. Reading between the lines, it appears that these limits "appear" when one persons usage significantly degrades performance for the other users.

 

[vi edit]

BT is really starting to get the screws put to it by ISP's. Some of them have even gone to the point of blocking the common ports that it uses.

I understand where they are coming from. BT users chew up a sickening amount of bandwith companred to any other sort of user. Even though many people assume they are on an unmetered broadband account, truth is, they are still being tracked for excessive usage. One or two BT users can easily use more resources than dozens of non BT users.

It's just a numbers game. The BT users are a small number of subscribers using up far more bandwith than their numbers would represent. Combine that with that fact that *most* BT users are downloading illegal content and it just isn't that hard of a decision for the ISP to make.

 

[ubercaffeinated]

My FTTP isn't run by Verizon or any one of the big companies. It's a smaller company that provides this specialized service to several communities within my area. I don't think they are anywhere else. As for my usage, I don't think my usage has been out of hand really, because I know my neighbors go buckwild with it. I know I downloaded far more in my college days (in a one week span, my roommate and I used up 3% of our universities entire BW back then). I don't use anywhere near that much bandwidth anymore. The situation sucks, but I am at the ISPs mercy, and the ISP shouldn't be shutting off my service again anytime soon as long as I don't go around opening a massive amounnt of connections.

As for the connections, does anyone know how ports work? Right now I've got bittorrent set to 100 maximum connections globablly. Does that mean when I'm connected to say 3 seeds, and 97 peers, that I have a grand total of 100 ports open?

 

[ColKurtz]

Originally posted by: makoto00
I don't use anywhere near that much bandwidth anymore.

You said in an earlier post, which I guess you edited, that you had BT on like 12 hours/day.

Maybe this is less bandwidth than you used to use, but that's still much much more than the average user and you're still the type of customer (as am I ftmp) that ISP's don't want.

As for the connections, does anyone know how ports work? Right now I've got bittorrent set to 100 maximum connections globablly. Does that mean when I'm connected to say 3 seeds, and 97 peers, that I have a grand total of 100 ports open?

Ports are a tcp (as in tcp/ip) concept. They have nothing to do with your bittorrent "connections". Think of them like channels on a radio. Web sites commonly use port 80 or 8080, ftp commonly uses port 21, etc. Bittorrent by default uses port 6881 IIRC, but that gets blocked a lot so there is another port that's becoming more common. Can't remember what it is but you should be able to find it easily on google and change the port your BT client uses.

 

[ubercaffeinated]

Right right, the edited post said I used 100/100 kbps sustained for 12 hours. Well, that was an overestimate, just to be... conservative, and I got rid of that. Thats what I would use on a maximum day, not on average. Typically I go like 50/50 for 5-8 hours, maybe every other day. Average I probably use what any other person would use, mostly because I don't want my gaming to lag =P

So as far as BT goes, are you saying that if I use Azureus or something one more 9881, then only that one port is opened? Regardless of the 100 peers or what not? Does the ISP know I'm connected to 100 other people on the torrent?

 

[spidey07]

can you limit bitorrent to a certain speed? Maybe that would keep you under the radar.

 

[nbarb99]

Unless they have clauses in their TOS regarding bandwidth limitations, they have no right to suspend your account (IMHO). Suspending it because of "suspicious P2P activity" is just plain wrong.

Before I'm flamed to death, yes, I realize it's their network and they can do whatever they want about it. But that doesn't mean they can "play God" and shut your connection off because they THINK you are downloading illegal stuff (when you aren't). If your activity was hurting their bandwidth costs, they should just come right out and tell you.

What exactly DO they say in their TOS, anyway?

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: nbarb99
Unless they have clauses in their TOS regarding bandwidth limitations, they have no right to suspend your account (IMHO). Suspending it because of "suspicious P2P activity" is just plain wrong.

Before I'm flamed to death, yes, I realize it's their network and they can do whatever they want about it. But that doesn't mean they can "play God" and shut your connection off because they THINK you are downloading illegal stuff (when you aren't). If your activity was hurting their bandwidth costs, they should just come right out and tell you.

What exactly DO they say in their TOS, anyway?

Most any well written TOS has an out for suspicious or abusive behavior. It is up to the provider to determine what is supicious or abusive.

 

[user1234]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: nbarb99
Unless they have clauses in their TOS regarding bandwidth limitations, they have no right to suspend your account (IMHO). Suspending it because of "suspicious P2P activity" is just plain wrong.

Before I'm flamed to death, yes, I realize it's their network and they can do whatever they want about it. But that doesn't mean they can "play God" and shut your connection off because they THINK you are downloading illegal stuff (when you aren't). If your activity was hurting their bandwidth costs, they should just come right out and tell you.

What exactly DO they say in their TOS, anyway?

Most any well written TOS has an out for suspicious or abusive behavior. It is up to the provider to determine what is supicious or abusive.

no it's not up to them to decide. If it was up to them why doesn't the contract say "termination can occur whenever we decide without cause" ? If the contract says "illegal activity" and both sides are bound by the contract, then the contract means what it says, not what one side wants it to mean. If there is a dispute about the meaning of a contract, there are various ways to resolve it, which I'm sure the ISP will not want to do since they are clearly trying to twist the meaning of the contract. So I suggest going to a consumer protection agency if this occurs again, or at least telling them you're going to do that if they try it again.

 

[user1234]

spidey, whatever it is your coming out of, the fact you should keep in mind is that even a service provider is bound by the service contract, and if they violate it, they could end up having to pay damages. And what's written in the agreement is agreed upon mutually, and one side cannot twist the menaning to its own liking. For example, if you lease a car, there is a slightly vague clause about "excessive wear and tear". Let's just say the leasing company cannot decide arbirarily what this means - it has to be a reasonable interpretation within accepted standards and according to well known precednets. If they try to claim that a well maintained car has "excessive wear and tear" you could dispute that and go to various state and federal consumer protection agencies. I would assume the any service provider would try to avoid something like that because it's usually a lose-lose situation for them.

 

[ubercaffeinated]

Here ya'll go, take a look: http://www.amerigeheights.org/acceptableusagepolicy.htm

Hehe, I'm over it. I've restarted seeding, and ftping stuff, keeping everthing capped to a fraction of what I used to do. So far they haven't shut me down or anything. Looks like I'll be alright for now. I'll update if they do anything.

 

[n0cmonkey]

12. Lawful Use: Services provided to you through GREENFIELD, including Internet access, may only be used for lawful purposes. Transmission of any data, information or material in violation of any federal or state regulation or law (including, but not limited to, material protected by copyright or trade secrets, and information that is confidential as a matter of law) is strictly prohibited. Subscriber may not, under any circumstances, use GREENFIELD in an unlawful manner, including, but not limited to: 1) posting or transmitting any unlawful, threatening, abusive, libelous, defamatory, obscene, or pornographic information of any kind, including without limitation any transmissions constituting or encouraging conduct that would constitute a criminal offense or give rise to civil liability; 2) intercepting or attempting to intercept e-mail; and 3) uploading / downloading files that contain software or other material protected by copyright laws. In addition GREENFIELD expressly reserves the right to terminate or suspend the Service of any Subscriber or account holder if GREENFIELD, in its sole judgment, believes that circumstances relating to the infringement of third party intellectual property rights warrant such action.

I'd say most of the content on the Internet is protected by copyright laws... :Q

18. GREENFIELD Cancellation: GREENFIELD reserves the right to cancel service for any reason without prior notice. When an account is canceled for violation of published terms and conditions, no refund shall be due.

Hmmm... :beer:

19. Excessive Use of Bandwidth: If GREENFIELD determines, in GREENFIELD's sole discretion, that Subscriber is using an excessive amount of bandwidth over the Service, we may suspend or terminate Subscriber's account at any time and without notice.

doh. :light:

 

[dphantom]

Originally posted by: user1234
spidey, whatever it is your coming out of, the fact you should keep in mind is that even a service provider is bound by the service contract, and if they violate it, they could end up having to pay damages. And what's written in the agreement is agreed upon mutually, and one side cannot twist the menaning to its own liking. For example, if you lease a car, there is a slightly vague clause about "excessive wear and tear". Let's just say the leasing company cannot decide arbirarily what this means - it has to be a reasonable interpretation within accepted standards and according to well known precednets. If they try to claim that a well maintained car has "excessive wear and tear" you could dispute that and go to various state and federal consumer protection agencies. I would assume the any service provider would try to avoid something like that because it's usually a lose-lose situation for them.

As spidey said, any properly written TOS will exclude such activity. See an example of one below. Others have posted simialar.

http://www.iserv.net/support/acceptable_use.shtml

Your or my access tot eh Internet is not a right but a fee for service that we contract with a provider. The provider sets the terms to which we either agree or not. The provider can in almost any circumstance cut you off for what it considers abuse or other violations of its stated policy.

For you to think you have a right to do anything with the bandwidth is not realistic at all. It's not yours, you and I just rent it for a specified term.

 

[user1234]

if I pay for it then I am entitled to use. True, there are some restrictions, but only within reason. If if some half-assed agreement says stupid things like "prohibited use include... remapping of ports" like it says in makotos agreement, this is UTTER BS, and is clearly an illegal restriction. The thing your small mind need to understand is that even these agreements must abide by some rules, and the drafter of the agreements cannot just invent whatever restrictions they want. I mean, they actually do that, but these restrictions are actually null and void, since they clearly violate basic consumer rights like privacy and ownership, therefore they are illegal and unenforcable (that is by the way true for many agreements people sign). For example, do you really think remapping ports (port forwarding) is prohibited or that someone could enforce such restriction even if they could detect it ? Do you just waste time arguing, or did you read what I said about unlimited nights and weekends cell phone minutes - you are entitled to use the service you paid for.

 

[Nothinman]

since they clearly violate basic consumer rights like privacy and ownership

How does not allowing you to remap ports or exceed a bandwidth threshold violate your rights? You have a right to a certain amount of bandwidth?