My HTPC v2.0 with aim of Low Noise, Low Heat, Low Cost (long)

cmv

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
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(sorry if this is the wrong forum -- hard to figure out which is the right one for HTPC)

TV: Regular standard definition 27" CRT by Philips (using svideo input)

Software:
Gentoo Linux
MythTV (see www.mythtv.org) with Nvidia drivers
Driver setup:
- XvMC with 1024x768 virtual display resized by card to NTSC-M (SVideo output)
My original HTPC:
CPU: Celeron D 340 (2.93 Ghz of heat)
Video: Nvidia 6200TC - PCIe
Motherboard: Asrock P4Dual-915GL (AGP + PCIe)
Memory: 2 x 512MB DDR
Hard Drives: Seagate 300 GB + 250 GB
Tuners: 2 x Air2PC ATSC tuners connected to big tower antenna
Case: PoS without top due to heat and small size == more noise
Sound: onboard stereo as no SPDIF

Problem with this setup was that it was too noisy and too hot. I couldn't comfortably put it into my NSK2400 case so it sat open in a cheap case for too long. It worked fairly well but on 720p content (like the Harry Potter broadcast on ABC) it was very borderline -- it could play it but just barely.

2nd version - I decided to upgrade with key ideas of low heat, low watts, and low $$$:
CPU: Celeron 420 (Conroe-L, 1.6 Ghz, 8w during Halt, 35w TDP, can do BSEL mod to go to 2.128 Ghz)
Video: Same - Nvidia 6200TC PCIe
Motherboard: PCChips P53G
Memory: 1 x 1 GB DDR2-667
Hard Drives: Same - Seagate 300 GB + 250 GB
Tuners: Same - 2 x Air2PC ATSC
Case: Antec NSK2400
Sound: SPDIF using motherboard header + Asus SPDIF bracket

Short summary: Wahoo!

This works great. I haven't BSEL moded the Celeron 420 (Conroe-L) but it clearly does a lot more work than the Celeron D 340 at a much lower temperature and wattage. When both CPUs are at full power the 420 is consuming 35w max while the 340 is around twice that amount. I throttled the standard Intel heatsink fan down to lowest possible with a Zalman Fanmate and the two 120mm side fans of the NSK2400 are at the lowest settings. At idle, the CPU temp is ~23c or 73.4f! When playing HD content, the temperature budges up to around 28c. It plays 720p content without issue at around 53% CPU usage. For 1080p content (using Elephant Dreams from http://orange.blender.org/download ), it hits 28-30% CPU but X cpu usage goes up to 6% most likely due to resizing the resolution partially in software instead of totally in hardware.

The best part is that with a BSEL mod this Celeron 420 can be run at 2128 Mhz (200 Mhz FSB -> 266 Mhz FSB if I've got it right). This is just like the old days with the Celeron 366 Mhz -> 550 Mhz overclocks and my favorite -- the Celeron 566 Mhz -> 850 Mhz. The only part I worry about is increased heat/power consumption so if anyone has done the mod or has any input on it that would be great.

It was a hard choice between the Celeron 420 and the Celeron e1200 (dual core, 1.6 Ghz too). I went with the 420 due to a NewEgg combo deal and I regretted it at first but now that I've tested it, I'm very happy. The e1200 would be more flexable for running more background processes (transcoding video, commercial flagging, etc) but the 420 has an idle/HALT state consumption of 8w -- I suspect the e1200 is higher.

Finally, this PCChips P53G motherboard is impressive. For good reason they have a really bad reputation. I had one of their early Pentium boards (or might have been for my AMD 386 DX/40) and it warped like crazy and wasn't very stable. But times have changed. Sure, they are low end but look at what you get! 1 x PCIe 16x, 1 x PCIe 1x, 2 x PCI and onboard SPDIF (but without a bracket unfortunately). For a budget build it would be hard to beat this board assuming you don't get a DOA one. I tend to prefer Intel chipsets as Via chipsets have been buggy in the past but so far there have been no problems.

edit: Update on 1080p content test:

1st test: ed_hv.avi - 800+ MB file from orange.blender.org/download that is 1920x1080 but uses MPEG4 video codec
Result: 28% CPU for player plus additional 7% for X (graphics system) probably due to resizing == 35%

2nd test: ed24p_00.ts - 314 MB file from www.w6rz.net - choose "Segment 1 (240,687,537 bytes)" which unzips to 314 MB - is 1920x180 with MPEG2 video codec
Result: 55-64% CPU for player (X at normal which is < 1%)
 

cmv

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
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Remaining issues:

1) Hard Drive Noise - the rubber mounting grommets in the NSK2400 are effective but my old Seagate 300 GB and 250 GB are noisy (7200.8 family according to SMART although the 300 GB says 7200.7 on the label). I'm still deciding between the WD green power drives (reports of high failure rates worry me), Samsungs 750 GB or 1 TB drive (not sure about noise -- not so worried over compatibility reports), and WD 640 GB non-green (bit more expensive). I'll wait for now as the noise is much better than before.

2) CPU Cooling Noise - the stock Intel HSF for Celeron-L is being used but the fan is throttled down ~700 rpm which was the minimum provided by a Zalman Fanmate. The fan noise is practically gone but the PWM to the fan motor does produce a bit of noise (at least I think that is the source). It is barely to non-audible with the case closed. I suspect it will be audible once the hard drives are upgraded (see #1). Fix: Order Zalman ZM-CS1 bracket and stick a Zalman 7000 Cu on it. That should lower the noise to non-audible in conjunction with the fanmate. Bonus: The P53g motherboard has the CPU right next to the twin 120mm fans in the NSK2400 so the Zalman will also have air movement from these fans.

3) 100 Mb/sec Network - Unfortunately, the PCChips P53g only has 10/100 onboard NIC. I'm using all of the rear slots up and don't think a USB NIC is realistic. One possible solution is to mod the case so I can put the SPDIF bracket elsewhere and then get a 1 Gb PCIe 1x NIC. For now, it is not an issue. An alternative solution would be to get a USB sound card with SPDIF (ie Turtle Beach Audio Advantage Micro) -- may cause increased CPU usage for sound though with USB overhead.
 

mcveigh

Diamond Member
Dec 20, 2000
6,457
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cool setup. I love tinkering with mine.

I'm using sagetv on top of XP MCE right now but am looking at a new build.

current:
P4 2.4C, 1GB ram, M-audio Revo 7.1, Nvidia Dual TV tuner card. MSI motherboard (I can't remember which model, intel chipset) Radeon 9600 (fanless) vid card.

new...possibly
Vista home premium, 2GB ram, 500 or 640GB HD, either samsung or WD, Gigabyte GA-MA78GM-S2H mobo, hopefully a Phenom 9150e. HDhomerun or avermedia M780 capture for HD. Noctua fans, Antec powersupply

I'm thinking about turning the old HTPC into a myth back end. have it capture most shows and use the faster machine to watch HD stuff. it will be fun playing around with two machines.
 

cmv

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
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Thanks! It's too much fun to play with these things but I've finally reach stability. The one given though is you can never have enough disk space.

I've got XP MCE on my laptop but I haven't played with the MCE side very much. I like the idea of it though as it would be cool to integrate with Netflix "Watch Now". I really wish it were possible to use Watch Now with Linux. Maybe one day...

You should give MythTV a try -- it should work well as a backend. There is a port of MythTV in the works for win32 and there are side projects with a win32 client right now. The ones I tried weren't too good yet but it would be neat if the main project does indeed release a win32 port.

I'm ecstatic about the optical digital audio as finally there is no hum coming through the speakers due to grounding issues.
 

SpeedEng66

Diamond Member
Jul 10, 2002
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p55 owner here :)
it was either the p53 or 55 (I chose the 55 because of the 7050 onboard)
but the bad thing is the 7050 does not have hardware assist (none or very little)
so im going to have to grab a ati 3450 to do some offloading
but I always been happy with pcchips boards (never had a bad one)

I was also was stumped on either getting a 420, e1200 or 21xx proc's
I ended up getting the e2160 (I should have grabbed the e1200 for my budget htpc rig)
e2160 was way more than what I really needed (for 720p)

you thought you had noise, in my case there's 3 60mm case fans
and 2 60mm on the psu :disgust:
I purchased 3 vantec stealths 60mm
but ran into another problem the p55 has only a 2 fan headers (one for cpu and one for front)
so im using only one vantec (via front header)
the 2 for the rear I sliced up the harnest and connected it via 5v line (I could have went 3.3 but it was just as quiet @ 5v and I dont wanna stress my little 240 watt psu via 7v mod so that was out)
temps are 39-41ish (ortho) load using the intel stock hsf

now when it's on the main noise is from the psu (gunna have to hack the 2-60mm up in the future) and then I hope the system is quiet :)

quick q?
would you know how many watts your system is drawing? (peak/idle)
 

cmv

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
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According to my P3 Kill-A-Watt, I'm at 84w at idle. This is a new CPU and it's a bit odd -- some systems show it supporting SpeedStep (and change the multiplier from 6-12x) but many don't. It looks like Linux 2.6.24.3 isn't compatible with the power saving features of the CPU or I haven't figured out the right options. When the drives are accessed, it peaks up to 94w or so. Playing 720p content I'm at at 90w.

If the idle/CPU power saving kicks in properly, I should get: 84w - 35w + 8w = 57w.

Well my old system was the noisy one -- this one with the NSK2400 is whisper quiet compared to it. I had some cheap P4 cooler on the old Celeron D and it very bad.

The choice between the e2160, e1200 and 420 are tricky! I only went for the 420 as a test case. I didn't think it would perform this well. I'd be more comfortable with the e1200 but I can still run bittorrent in the background, have recordings going on, and watch TV on it without any problems.
 

SpeedEng66

Diamond Member
Jul 10, 2002
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is speedstep enabled in the bios?

yea I voted against the 420 because my last htpc was (in sig now my new mame pos)
a pentium-m 1.7 2mb cache which is pretty much a 440 (but with more cache and higer speed)

and it worked fine under vista hp but I wanted more :)

plus my new setup was sooo dirt cheap why not upgrade
 

cmv

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
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The BIOS has Enhanced C1E (which is what I'm after) enabled but no mention of SpeedStep.

I flashed the newest BIOS and it hosed the onboard network adapter. Before the flash, it showed two options for it in "Integrated Peripherals" in the BIOS. The operating system doesn't detect the NIC. Argh!

Thankfully, using the CMOS clear/reset jumper on the motherboard brought it back. That is odd but at least it is working.
 

SpeedEng66

Diamond Member
Jul 10, 2002
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Originally posted by: cmv
The BIOS has Enhanced C1E (which is what I'm after) enabled but no mention of SpeedStep.

I flashed the newest BIOS and it hosed the onboard network adapter. Before the flash, it showed two options for it in "Integrated Peripherals" in the BIOS. The operating system doesn't detect the NIC. Argh!

Thankfully, using the CMOS clear/reset jumper on the motherboard brought it back. That is odd but at least it is working.

aww poop I dumbed out I forgot that celeron does not have eist :(
 

cmv

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
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Yeah, bit of a bummer in some ways but if it is really at 8w during idle EIST wouldn't gain me much (especially considering it's only 3 steps from low to high if it's like the T2050 in my laptop). Although maybe EIST would be a benefit if some processor kicked it out of idle but not up to max (like say BitTorrent)?

I suspect that C1E is working as when I stress the CPU to 100% the meter almost hits 100 watts. Still though, 100w - 35w + 8w = 73 so I'm wondering where those other ~11 watts are going when it idles at 84 watts. Perhaps it doesn't work quite so transparently.

The NSK2400 came with a 380w Antec power supply. Ideally, I'd use a power supply that is rated for 2 x idle/max watts so around 200w. I have an Antec 380w EarthWatts v2.0 to try swapping in. With gamers wanting all those 500 - 1000 watt power supplies the supply of good 200 watt power supplies is probably not very high!

edit: Integrated GPU would win me back 15-30w -- too bad the P55G doesn't have DVI/SVideo out.

I've also got a e2180 I can drop in to compare and I want to BSEL mod the 420 and see how that affects power consumption.
 

bearxor

Diamond Member
Jul 8, 2001
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Nice build. I probably would have went with a 8-series gpu, like a 8300gs or something for the hardware decoding of hd. But I'd be running Vista MCE and I don't know if Myth can take advantage of the hardware in the GPU. It's a far cry from my massive power hungry HTPC. Hopefully I'll get the money to rebuild it into something cooler and smaller soon.
 

cmv

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
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Unfortunately, the linux driver from Nvidia doesn't support most of the enhanced decoding beyond a limited subset for MPEG2 so there is little to gain over a 6200TC or 7300GS. Apparently, Intel is going to make a push towards more accelerated low end 3D and media capabilities along with strong Linux support (they already have a breakout board to provide DVI and SVideo for some chipsets). It's still early days though so it isn't usable yet. Then there is ATI which released some of the hardware specs but not all and has a not so great Linux driver.

There is a group that is working on an open source 3D driver for Nvidia cards and maybe one day it would support some of these media functions but according to their website it is a very slow process as they are working at a very low level. The group http://nouveau.freedesktop.org/wiki/.

Still, as seen above, this CPU along with the regular graphics pipeline on the Nvidia card is able to play back 1080p MPEG4 content to at least a virtual 1024x768 screen so likely it can do it to the full 1080p resolution. I'd love to have a nice 42" 1080p TV/monitor to try it!
 

JimiP

Senior member
May 6, 2007
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In all honesty, I would go with AMD for a current HTPC. A Gigabyte or ASUS 780G board paired up with 2GB DDR2-800 (I recommend G.Skill, cheap and rock solid) and one of those 45w Athlon 64 X2's BE-2400. Low power, low noise, HDMI on-board. Cheap!

We have one of these systems running Vista Home Premium 32 at work powering a 56" Samsung 1080p DLP screen that has been displaying Blu-Ray movies. CPU usage is very low due to the 780G.

I high recommend a build like this. Cheap but very effective.
 

cmv

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
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Originally posted by: JimiP
In all honesty, I would go with AMD for a current HTPC. A Gigabyte or ASUS 780G board paired up with 2GB DDR2-800 (I recommend G.Skill, cheap and rock solid) and one of those 45w Athlon 64 X2's BE-2400. Low power, low noise, HDMI on-board. Cheap!

We have one of these systems running Vista Home Premium 32 at work powering a 56" Samsung 1080p DLP screen that has been displaying Blu-Ray movies. CPU usage is very low due to the 780G.

I high recommend a build like this. Cheap but very effective.
ATI isn't a viable option for a linux-based HTPC especially if you want to play HD content due to bad drivers (from ATI). Sounds good for a Windows-based one though. But ouch! The BE-2400 is $99! A Celeron-L 420 is $32 while a Celeron e1200 is ~ $43. I did a quick google and I don't see a head to head BE-2400 versus e1200. Is it possible to overclock the FSB on a BE-2400 to the next normal FSB like it is with the Celeron 420/e1200? The Celeron 4xx and e1200 are like being back in the old days with the 66 Mhz FSB -> 100 Mhz FSB overclocks on the Celeron 366 Mhz (to 550 Mhz) and 566 Mhz (to 850 Mhz -- this one made a huge difference). I liked those overclocks because they were standard FSB speeds with no concerns over PCI clock, memory clock, etc.

I think the AMD 780G solution would be 2x this one and if you toss in a Vista license maybe 2.5-3x? I agree an integrated motherboard with HDMI or whatever specific ports you need is a good way to go.

edit: Interesting thread at avsforum: Guide to Building a HD HTPC

I forgot to mention one thing: If AMD could push out all the ATI hardware documentation to the linux driver developers they would be a player for linux gamers, linux htpc guys, and regular desktop users wanted a well supported integrated video solution. It's frustrating seeing them do this -- they could eclipse Nvidia on the linux platform. It is a small niche of course but it could work out very well for them.
 

JimiP

Senior member
May 6, 2007
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Ah yeah, I must have skipped over the fact that this was for a Linux based HTPC. That definitely sucks. (The driver issues of course... ;)) I will agree with you on the price points of the three CPU's. Intel has the cheaper solution with their Celly 420 and dual core counterpart.

I just remember trying out on of Intel's more "media center-ish" motherboards and not being particularly impressed. I believe it was the G33... I could be wrong though.
 

cmv

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
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It is impressive that the BE-2400 comes in at 45w for dual core. I agree on the motherboards although for my purposes it's basically a challenge to finding something low end that has the features I'm looking for.

One power saving method is to have the system use ACPI S3 to sleep. With MythTV (and no doubt other PVR systems), it can schedule itself to wakeup before recordings need to be started. Under Linux, Asus has a good record for proper ACPI S3 implementations. If this PCChips motherboard is compatible it will be a good way to shave a lot of power consumption.
 

SpeedEng66

Diamond Member
Jul 10, 2002
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Originally posted by: cmv
Yeah, bit of a bummer in some ways but if it is really at 8w during idle EIST wouldn't gain me much (especially considering it's only 3 steps from low to high if it's like the T2050 in my laptop). Although maybe EIST would be a benefit if some processor kicked it out of idle but not up to max (like say BitTorrent)?

I suspect that C1E is working as when I stress the CPU to 100% the meter almost hits 100 watts. Still though, 100w - 35w + 8w = 73 so I'm wondering where those other ~11 watts are going when it idles at 84 watts. Perhaps it doesn't work quite so transparently.

The NSK2400 came with a 380w Antec power supply. Ideally, I'd use a power supply that is rated for 2 x idle/max watts so around 200w. I have an Antec 380w EarthWatts v2.0 to try swapping in. With gamers wanting all those 500 - 1000 watt power supplies the supply of good 200 watt power supplies is probably not very high!

edit: Integrated GPU would win me back 15-30w -- too bad the P55G doesn't have DVI/SVideo out.

I've also got a e2180 I can drop in to compare and I want to BSEL mod the 420 and see how that affects power consumption.


true no difference if the cpu is @ full speed
under regular video playback (dvd/divx) esit on my cpu keeps it @ lowest multi and drop the v-core to 1.19 (somewhere around there cant recall atm)
not a big power saving but some power saving ;)

and also (I dont have a kill-a-watt yet) is there any power savings if you go into the bios and disable some of the onboard items (ie legacy ports, raid (if app) a bunch of misc thing that arent being used at all) ?? (maybe it might cut a few watts here and there ?)
 

SpeedEng66

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Jul 10, 2002
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Originally posted by: cmv
It is impressive that the BE-2400 comes in at 45w for dual core. I agree on the motherboards although for my purposes it's basically a challenge to finding something low end that has the features I'm looking for.

One power saving method is to have the system use ACPI S3 to sleep. With MythTV (and no doubt other PVR systems), it can schedule itself to wakeup before recordings need to be started. Under Linux, Asus has a good record for proper ACPI S3 implementations. If this PCChips motherboard is compatible it will be a good way to shave a lot of power consumption.

I recall reading a article that, amd has a different method than intel in order of getting that 45watts (different method @ testing)
(wish I can remember where I saw that at) :(
 

cmv

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
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I didn't realize EIST also altered the voltage. I was reading a bunch of reports of doing the BSEL mod on the Celeron 420 and many people reported getting EIST too (I think with Windows but with exact same CPU and motherboard -- maybe it is still an OS . I just moded mine and it is running at 2128 Mhz but no EIST. The power consumption appears to be the same. Oddly enough, my older Celeron D 340 does have speed step.

The 1080p MPEG2 file mentioned at the bottom of the first post now plays with 45-56% so it gives a little extra margin. Temps are about the same at idle and a couple degrees higher when stressing the CPU.
 

SpeedEng66

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Jul 10, 2002
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Originally posted by: cmv
I didn't realize EIST also altered the voltage. I was reading a bunch of reports of doing the BSEL mod on the Celeron 420 and many people reported getting EIST too (I think with Windows but with exact same CPU and motherboard -- maybe it is still an OS . I just moded mine and it is running at 2128 Mhz but no EIST. The power consumption appears to be the same. Oddly enough, my older Celeron D 340 does have speed step.

The 1080p MPEG2 file mentioned at the bottom of the first post now plays with 45-56% so it gives a little extra margin. Temps are about the same at idle and a couple degrees higher when stressing the CPU.

I really think if you bsel the cpu it equal exact same change as just uppin the fsb via bios

the bsel mod was mainly for ppl whos mb doesnt allow ocing so they would do this mod and presto instant 333 fsb :)

im not sure about your mb but my p55g doesnt have vcore adjustment at all :(
I was looking into pin moddin for decreasing the voltage-core (all I find online is to increase the vcore ..incase anyone wants that here it is link for vcore increase via pin moddin )

I was able to undervolt my wifes e6550 to 1.16 volt @ 2.8ghz (via bios p35a)
If I find a link I will try it over the weekend (and hope I dont mess anything up lol)
 

cmv

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
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Originally posted by: SpeedEng66
I really think if you bsel the cpu it equal exact same change as just uppin the fsb via bios

the bsel mod was mainly for ppl whos mb doesnt allow ocing so they would do this mod and presto instant 333 fsb :)
I think you're right. I'll try cleaning it off and doing it via the BIOS as it looks like the P53G can do it. I need to put on some fresh thermal compound anyway. I dislike how the new Intel HSF connect -- really sloppy!

im not sure about your mb but my p55g doesnt have vcore adjustment at all :(
I was looking into pin moddin for decreasing the voltage-core (all I find online is to increase the vcore ..incase anyone wants that here it is link for vcore increase via pin moddin )

I was able to undervolt my wifes e6550 to 1.16 volt @ 2.8ghz (via bios p35a)
If I find a link I will try it over the weekend (and hope I dont mess anything up lol)
Looks like no CPU volt control in mine either. It would be a great way to go if it were possible. Have you tried any of the software tools to do it?
 

SpeedEng66

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Jul 10, 2002
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update kinda bored at work today

I ordered 3450 off newegg to offload hd $31 shipped after rebate
SAPPHIRE 100233L Radeon HD 3450 256MB 64-bit GDDR2 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP
rebate
rebate is from myrebates411.
I dealt with them before they do send out the rebate eventually (they are very slow)
but you have to follow the rebate form to the fine print)

edit :(
(for a second it hit me and looks like im kinda hyjacking your thread which is not what im tryin to do :eek:)

sorry if it seems that way .. I hope I am adding some useful info to your thread :(
 

PurdueRy

Lifer
Nov 12, 2004
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Just to add, I've heard good things about the Enermax enlobal fans. Perhaps that might be a good replacement for whatever comes with your case.
 

cmv

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
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Originally posted by: SpeedEng66
edit :(
(for a second it hit me and looks like im kinda hyjacking your thread which is not what im tryin to do :eek:)

sorry if it seems that way .. I hope I am adding some useful info to your thread :(
Nope, keep posting. I'm happy to have as much information as possible!

Originally posted by: PurdueRy
Just to add, I've heard good things about the Enermax enlobal fans. Perhaps that might be a good replacement for whatever comes with your case.
Thanks. I'll check them out. My Antec NSK2400 came with two 120mm fans each with a 3 position switch to alter the speed. They do make a tiny bit of noise at even the lowest setting.