My honest BFG 9800 GX2 review. No hype.

[imported_wired247]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: wired247
So I have the up to date version of bioshock. Yes it was more than playable on the 8800GT, it's just prettier and better framerate on the GX2.

My frustrations mostly come from the interface which is still buggy as hell. I spent a good 20 mins following a tweak guide and it accomplished nothing. I have a few issues with this game... it handles the mouse cursor very poorly, the physics is still choppy even though the graphical FPS is high. Lots of people have noticed this physics issue. I tried tweaking the ini file to set physics resolution to "high" but I don't think it helps.

Adjusting settings sometimes causes crashes... it's just a terrible PC experience. But the game is cool when you get to play it.

i actually didn't look at your videos as i am back on 56K dial-up. But i assure you - BioShock was *so smooth* last night i got *lost* - for a couple of hours - just admiring the Graphics, wandering from room to room happily slaughtering everything in sight and admiring the effects - MUCH much better then i ever did with my single 2900xt .. so i kinda get the feeling you are talking about; in other words, it was "OK" and "playable" before -but NOW with a much faster rig it is downright spectacular!
:heart:

yep, *worth it* imo
:thumbsup:

Well if you get a chance, check out at least the first video. The choppy physics are totally independent of graphical performance. Yes, the whole game is smooth, if you ignore this flaw in the physics engine (and the mouse input scaling).

I mean it's rediculous. This is a Logitech G5 mouse that is set to 1000 reports/second and 2000x2000 resolution. And when you scale up the sensitivity in bioshock, the crosshair seems to snap to a huge "invisible grid" at least 30 pixels between each grid point or so. I just can't consider that smooth gameplay.

Whenever I describe this issue to people, a lot of people told me they think something is wrong with my system. I just have to LOL at that because I think the issue is that some people just don't seem to notice this physics issue. This issue is enormously distracting for me while it may be a complete non-issue for others. Those that "don't notice it" just aren't as picky as me -- it's nothing wrong with the computer.

(not to mention any system getting over 60FPS in crysis benchmarks is definitely running just fine)

I've NEVER seen a game with physics this choppy. 2K really did a crap job implementing the engine for bioshock, I'm not going to sugar coat it. If the game was not so cool I would definitely have stopped playing within 5 minutes.

 

[apoppin]

OK .. i am going to watch it .. it can D/L while i make dinner

thanks!


========
[10 minutes later]

EDIT: OMG .. gag

no ... mine looks NOTHING like that .. it never looked that weird
[you youtube video is with the old card, not the GX2, right?]
:Q

mine looks good

have you thought of reinstalling the game completely?
-with the latest drivers?

 

[CP5670]

I've NEVER seen a game with physics this choppy. 2K really did a crap job implementing the engine for bioshock, I'm not going to sugar coat it. If the game was not so cool I would definitely have stopped playing within 5 minutes.

Try Deus Ex: Invisible War. It's at least as bad, if not worse. I remember Half Life 2 and Splinter Cell: Double Agent also having the same problem, although it was less noticeable. As I said, I think it's a limitation with the Havok physics engine they all use. The only reason you don't notice it in more games is that most of them don't let you move objects around.

I know exactly what you're talking about, but Bioshock is certainly not the first game to have this problem.

 

[evolucion8]

Originally posted by: Obsoleet
Alright fine. Enjoy the card.

But I think its a public service and a favor to let you know that this video card will be the shortest lived king-of-the-hill EVER.

I'd highly suggest listening to the naysayers. If you don't in a VERY short amount of time I'm going to laugh when you find out what I'm saying is the truth.

9800GX2 aka 7950GX2 = Phenomenal performance at their debut, and lackluster performance after a while...

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: CP5670

I've NEVER seen a game with physics this choppy. 2K really did a crap job implementing the engine for bioshock, I'm not going to sugar coat it. If the game was not so cool I would definitely have stopped playing within 5 minutes.

Try Deus Ex: Invisible War. It's at least as bad, if not worse. I remember Half Life 2 and Splinter Cell: Double Agent also having the same problem, although it was less noticeable. As I said, I think it's a limitation with the Havok physics engine they all use. The only reason you don't notice it in more games is that most of them don't let you move objects around.

I know exactly what you're talking about, but Bioshock is certainly not the first game to have this problem.

i will agree .. that it is there ... BUT BS is not is that league at all - at least not on my rig. And as i remember, PK has a very decent application of Havok even though it was a very early engine. ..

Physics may not be perfect but they are not distracting

 

[Pelu]

Nvidia and ATI have been developing not so great stuff in the lasts months.. aka.. more than a year...

I think they have reach some peak in the hardware developement, why because they need a new architecture.. computers need a new one....

When computers was so slow.. someone say omg.. lets make this new architecture and call it Front Side Bus.. and so they did... and when everyone was sitting and messing around until someone say.. wait.. lets make some video card... and the video cards appear... (hardware accelerator like the original voodoos and such)...

The point is that we have a faster card each year.. but we still with the same of Core.. Memory clock Bus clock and such... much faster and faster with the basics that have been used for years... and only a little details being added like pixel shaders and such....

Faster Processors and RAM... with the same basic of Front Side Bus...

There is a need for a revamp in this way to develop video and other stuff in computers because the time, money, and environment is turning into a hazard...

 

[CP5670]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: CP5670

I've NEVER seen a game with physics this choppy. 2K really did a crap job implementing the engine for bioshock, I'm not going to sugar coat it. If the game was not so cool I would definitely have stopped playing within 5 minutes.

Try Deus Ex: Invisible War. It's at least as bad, if not worse. I remember Half Life 2 and Splinter Cell: Double Agent also having the same problem, although it was less noticeable. As I said, I think it's a limitation with the Havok physics engine they all use. The only reason you don't notice it in more games is that most of them don't let you move objects around.

I know exactly what you're talking about, but Bioshock is certainly not the first game to have this problem.

i will agree .. that it is there ... BUT BS is not is that league at all - at least not on my rig. And as i remember, PK has a very decent application of Havok even though it was a very early engine. ..

Physics may not be perfect but they are not distracting

BS looks pretty much the same to me as it does in that video. I guess I can ignore it since character movements aren't affected, and there are so many games with the issue now anyway that I'm used to it.

It's like the vibrating corpse effect you sometimes get in these Havok games, when a small part of a body gets stuck in the level geometry. It looked downright hilarious the first time I saw it (in DXIW), but it has appeared in so many games since then that it almost feels like a normal thing now.

I think Oblivion is another game with this sort of physics. I haven't actually played it and have only watched my brother play a few times, but it sticks out right away.

 

[apoppin]

i get it very occasionally .. Oblivion will also get that if you do specific things in a certain sequence - like with doors. IW with corpses [and many other games]. i am looking forward to improvement also.

And yes BS does have it ... but i don't think mine looks quite like that
- i would find it very distracting to see it regularly.

 

[Blacklash]

This interview with Carmack explains well why I have some reservations about multi-gpu.

http://www.pcper.com/article.p...=532&type=expert&pid=3

 

[lloydxd]

Great post OP. I think you're absolutely right. By all means enjoy your card.

 

[imported_wired247]

Originally posted by: apoppin
OK .. i am going to watch it .. it can D/L while i make dinner

thanks!


========
[10 minutes later]

EDIT: OMG .. gag

no ... mine looks NOTHING like that .. it never looked that weird
[you youtube video is with the old card, not the GX2, right?]
:Q

mine looks good

have you thought of reinstalling the game completely?
-with the latest drivers?

That's not MY video, there are several out there on youtube. (and FWIW my graphics are looking about 1000x better than that video, I only showed it for the physics) This is a known issue. Hell it's not even an issue, it's just a crappy engine. I refuse to believe that this is only found on the Steam version. I know it doesn't really seem apparent on Xbox 360 because the graphics and physics are both 30FPS so you wouldn't notice any difference.

I don't know about the PC boxed version though, that's the only one I haven't tried.

This all makes perfect sense if you look at some of the other cross-platform (PC/console) games that 2K has released. A lot of them were developed for console and ported to PC. Some of their sports games on PC are unbelievably choppy as well, even with cutting edge hardware. IMHO, 2K really sucks. Although their stuff does play decent on consoles. They are just trying to make a buck by releasing for PC.

 

[imported_wired247]

If anyone is interested in a barely used XFX 8800GT 512MB with lifetime warranty check out the for sale forum

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: wired247

Originally posted by: apoppin
OK .. i am going to watch it .. it can D/L while i make dinner

thanks!


========
[10 minutes later]

EDIT: OMG .. gag

no ... mine looks NOTHING like that .. it never looked that weird
[you youtube video is with the old card, not the GX2, right?]
:Q

mine looks good


have you thought of reinstalling the game completely?
-with the latest drivers?

That's not MY video, there are several out there on youtube. (and FWIW my graphics are looking about 1000x better than that video, I only showed it for the physics) This is a known issue. Hell it's not even an issue, it's just a crappy engine. I refuse to believe that this is only found on the Steam version. I know it doesn't really seem apparent on Xbox 360 because the graphics and physics are both 30FPS so you wouldn't notice any difference.

I don't know about the PC boxed version though, that's the only one I haven't tried.

This all makes perfect sense if you look at some of the other cross-platform (PC/console) games that 2K has released. A lot of them were developed for console and ported to PC. Some of their sports games on PC are unbelievably choppy as well, even with cutting edge hardware. IMHO, 2K really sucks. Although their stuff does play decent on consoles. They are just trying to make a buck by releasing for PC.

i have been unaware of this issue in 2K games - i don't play sports games at all. Thanks for bringing it up.

i *assumed* your example was just for the physics. And the video is pretty compressed.
- What is demonstrated by your video i just cannot duplicate [i tried] - although i DO see oddities in the physics they are not that extreme .. and i only have the boxed version of BS

You also made me play BS again .. after i swore i was done with it
-not bad ... i glad i revisited it .. i 'looks' and plays [much] better with Crossfire over a single 2900xt [which was decent]


. . . and especially thank-you for your GX2 review!
- you are right - no hype. And it is a very nice upgrade - especially for certain situations it might be ideal.

Ist Edit: Head's up

PNY 9800GX2 ~518$ Shipped

http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16814133217

Coupon code: VGA32760

2nd EDIT:

this is BUGGING me .. in BioShock, Does "Andrew Ryan" remind anyone of the English actor in Magnum PI? - or is it just me?



LAST EDIT {i promise} here you go -
Would you kindly check it out!

http://www.mymovies.it/filmclub/attori/9168.jpg
and
http://moviesmedia.ign.com/mov...-20070820045003556.jpg

 

[idiotekniQues]

i wanna say something but please promise first you wont say nothin bad about it!

 

[DerekWilson]

i know that you said you should have waited a bit ... maybe even a couple weeks would have done some good ... ... can't say much more than that though

yes it is a fast solution ... and it's not the best thing suited for 2560x1600, as 8800 Ultra SLI is probably a better allround bet. (can't believe i left those numbers out of the review).

I know you said you didn't want an SLI board, but the 790i based solutions look awesome even if you don't want to run SLI. There are other reasons to get an SLI board, especially if money is no object. And with this solution, we're still looking into whether pcie2.0 bw makes a significant difference.

anyway ... i'd also like to point out that you are daydreaming if you think you can ask people not to post negative comments and get away with it you've got to accept that people are allowed to comment as they like within the guidelines even if it steps on your toes.

i've played with a lot of high end stuff ... it ends up being obsolete much faster than you might like. and i'm not just talking about stuff i get free -- i put about 7 or 8k into a build once ... i consider it one of the worst investments i ever made because it just doesn't have the life span you'll want it to. actually, the more money you put into something, it seems like the faster it degrades in value. i suppose the exception would be the fact that the 8800 gtx has been at or near the top for such a very long time (but that has to do with ATI dropping the ball almost as much as anything else).

i'm not trying to be negative ... just wanted to give you my take on it i absolutely hope your experience with the system is excellent.

 

[imported_Shaq]

With the GX2, and my previous upgrades, I finally have Dirt running about perfect! I originally had a single core OC'd 3700+ and 8800GTS 640 and Audigy card when it came out. It would dip into the teens about half the time in the multicar races. This is at 720p with 1 or 2 settings on high. I upgraded to a dual core and it brought it up to the mid 20's. LOL I got a q6600 and it ran in the 30's with dips in the 20's. The game also had a problem with sound degrading performance and it had to be run in software mode without being in the teens the whole time. I just loaded it up yesterday for the first time in 6 months.

With the GX2 and an Xfi Xtreme Music at 1600x900 and openal sound with all settings on high/ultra it only dips to 45fps occasionally and stays above 60 the rest of the time. On rallies it runs 70-90 the whole time. It's definitely my favorite racing game right now. I obviously didn't buy all of this just for this game, but this is the same scenario we are going to go through with Crysis I imagine. About a year and a half or so after release it should play really well once we figure out where the bottlenecks lie.

And yes BS runs really well now. I noticed a doubling of my fps compared to my vmodded GT. I just hate gaming in the 30's range and games are at least twice as immersive/fun when there aren't any frame rate drops. As far as cost is concerned I pay about $400/year to keep a near top of the line rig by selling my old parts on ebay. I try to pick bang for the buck parts, but some years it is more difficult. It depends which parts come out that year. But I hold on to my mobo/cpu/ram for at least 2-3 years and should be easy with a quad.
I don't think 1 GT200 will blow away the GX2. I believe it will be about the same performance but in 1 card so the GX2 should stay competitive for at least a year or so.

Derek: Are you going to have a followup on the quad sli crysis bottleneck? I look forward to the conclusions. Your first statement in your post has me curious.

 

[imported_wired247]

Originally posted by: DerekWilson
i know that you said you should have waited a bit ... maybe even a couple weeks would have done some good ... ... can't say much more than that though

yes it is a fast solution ... and it's not the best thing suited for 2560x1600, as 8800 Ultra SLI is probably a better allround bet. (can't believe i left those numbers out of the review).

I know you said you didn't want an SLI board, but the 790i based solutions look awesome even if you don't want to run SLI. There are other reasons to get an SLI board, especially if money is no object. And with this solution, we're still looking into whether pcie2.0 bw makes a significant difference.

anyway ... i'd also like to point out that you are daydreaming if you think you can ask people not to post negative comments and get away with it you've got to accept that people are allowed to comment as they like within the guidelines even if it steps on your toes.

i've played with a lot of high end stuff ... it ends up being obsolete much faster than you might like. and i'm not just talking about stuff i get free -- i put about 7 or 8k into a build once ... i consider it one of the worst investments i ever made because it just doesn't have the life span you'll want it to. actually, the more money you put into something, it seems like the faster it degrades in value. i suppose the exception would be the fact that the 8800 gtx has been at or near the top for such a very long time (but that has to do with ATI dropping the ball almost as much as anything else).

i'm not trying to be negative ... just wanted to give you my take on it i absolutely hope your experience with the system is excellent.

Thanks for your comments and I understand what you're saying.

As for the remark about negative comments... just trying to keep this from becoming every other GX2 thread, and I think the result was alright I wasn't trying to make "rules" ... just guidelines.

I really don't know what came over me when I bought the GX2. I was all hyped up because I just wasn't really satisfied with my 8800GT experience (although many others are) and this was bar none the easiest way for me to get a big jump in performance. I considered buying an ultra, but they seem pretty much unavailable at this point.

Going this route was nice because it did not require me to change any parts, get a different PSU, get a tri-sli mobo (which I would likely need to go SLI, since this raid card is pcie8x)... it was a clear decision for me, but it is probably a bad idea for many.


If anandtech ever needs anymore reviewers or writers (lol fat chance, right?) I'm always here, love to sound off, love to write, love to post whore and absolutely LOVE computer parts. I'm also a far better writer than this, but I usually tone down the elitist grammar nazi style when posting on a forum.

Have a good one!
Mike