My Heroes are almost all gone

[Vonkhan]

Joachim Peiper: Colonel in the Waffen-SS, look upto him as a true leader of soldiers. After some of his soldiers were accused of the Malmedy Massacare, he asked that he alone be tried for it as he was their commanding officer.

A P J Kalam Azad: President of India, rose from being the son of a boat owner to the father of India's nuclear missile program and finally to the post of being the President.

Benjamin "Hawkeye" Pierce: Character from M*A*S*H, humor under fire. Altho he's just a character on a TV series, I learnt a lot from it.

My dad: You wouldn't classify him as succesful man in material terms, but everyone who knows him agrees that he's a "gem of a man"

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: Vonkhan
Joachim Peiper: Colonel in the Waffen-SS, look upto him as a true leader of soldiers. After some of his soldiers were accused of the Malmedy Massacare, he asked that he alone be tried for it as he was their commanding officer.

Can you expand on this one? If he was their commanding officer did he order it? Accused of a massacre? Don't we know by now if they did it?

I'm having a hard time with this one. Sounds like a guy that was part of a heinous unit that may have done something good for his heinous troops.

If you're going to choose a German soldier, take the general who refused Hitler's order to destroy Paris.

 

[Crimson]

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: Crimson

Originally posted by: Perknose
I'd like to add one other. Former Supreme Court Justice Robert Jackson, who, on Flag Day, June 14th, 1943, in the midst of the life and death struggle of WWll, wrote the decision that Jehovah Witness school children did NOT have to stand for the pledge of allegiance in school or salute the flag:

"If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion."

Such political courage and allegiance to the highest and purest principles of the United States of America, no matter the ignorant prevailing opinion of the war frenzied masses, is especially prescriptive for these jingoistic times.

I suppose your next most favorite person is whomever voted in favor of abortion?

I mean, I can totally see your point in having to show respect for the flag.. thats ruining America.. God forbid everyone shows some respect for the symbol of their freedom. What we need in this country is more disrespect for the flag, more abortions, more drug use, less religion.. and for the love of god, can we FINALLY pay teachers what they are worth? :roll:

Yeah.. good one Perk.. that would be TOPS on my list too.. Am I saying people should be forced to stand for the flag? No.. but it really wouldn't hurt.. But its no surprise to me that you would place that on you top list.. To me, that would be #5,624,043... Just a suggestion on something that might come before that... Hmm.. Maybe the founders of our country? Nyah... That would make too much sense.. Lets salute the guy that gives you the right to spit on the constitution!! But, I see where your priorities are.

Sad... truly sad..

Spit on the constitution? Justice Robert Jackson bravely and courageously upheld it in the face of foaming proto-facist troglodytes like you.

It is you who would spit on the constitution, as Justice Jackson so rightly pointed out. And just how did abortion get into this, you red faced, spittle flecked, intemperate troll?

You have NO IDEA what the principle of personal freedom really means, and would obviously use the levers of the State to enfore your angry vision on everyone.

We are a country where respect is earned, not enforced. May it ever be so.

Did you actually READ what I said? I said I agreed with you that people should not be forced to stand up for the Pledge, but I said there are like 5 million other things more important to me.. You just shoot out the facist label.. The fact that that is one of the most important people to me tells me that you just give lip service to the idea of 'personal freedom'.

 

[Vonkhan]

Can you expand on this one? If he was their commanding officer did he order it? Accused of a massacre? Don't we know by now if they did it?

Sure, I'll try not to hijack the thread though

Peiper was commanding the spearhead of 1st SS Panzer Division Leibstandarte during the Ardennes Offensive (battle of the bulge). On the 17th of Dec. '44, armor from Kampfgruppe Peiper ran into Battery B, 285th Field Artillery Observation Battalion and captured equipment and several GIs. Witnesses agree that Peiper rode by in a jeep, jovially shouting "It's a long way to Tipperary". Only a few troops were left behind to gaurd the prisoners.

This is where the accounts start to vary.

The Germans claim that some POWs tried to make a break for it, while other POWs tried to overpower them and assault them with concealed weapons.

The Americans say that the POWs were shot in cold blood with many of the bodies having gunshot wounds to the head.
Evidence put forth by the US Army suggests that the POWs were massacred, but then the victors write the history books.

Before the start of the offensive, Sepp Deitrich (kind of like the father figure for the Waffen-SS at the time) told Peiper to "hold the reins loose". This has been interpretted by some as a go-ahead for killing POWs given the near-impossible timetable that Peiper had to work with. Others argue that it meant that Peiper should throw caution to the wind and bypass US strongpoints (as he did) in his run to River Muse. It might have also meant nothing other than a verbal booster.

Make no mistake about that, Peiper was an ardent Nazi till his bitter end - he died alone in the fire that broke out in his house while defending himself from assailants who had surrounded the house.

I'm no Nazi (I'm not even white ) and definately don't support what he believed in and fought for. However, he was a loyal soldier, a skilled warrior and an excellent leader. Having worn a uniform myself, I can appreciate those qualities and know how hard it is find someone who embodies all those qualities all the same time.

I used to have a website about him, but geocities removed it since my image gallery was some direct(?) linkage and for a link to a commercial bookstore (evidently against the rules since geocities wanted it to be a personal site with no links to any other sponsore ... yeh, rite ... sponsor )

Anyway, there's a lot of info on the internet still available. However, the BEST resource on him is the book "Jochen Peiper: Commander, Panzerregiment Leibstandarte" by Patrick Agte. It's a huge book that documents his life as well as the 1st SS PzD.

Hope this helped

 

[LeadMagnet]

Albert Einstein
Issac Newton
Theodore Roosevelt
Nicolaus Copernicus
Ronald Reagan
Tyco Brahe
My Dad

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Tripleshot

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Sonny Barger

Damn. When did he die? I thought he was imortal?

:brokenheart:

He's not dead, he's alive and well living in Arizona writing his books, raising horses and working on Motorcycles

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: Crimson

"I said I agreed with you that people should not be forced to stand up for the Pledge, but I said there are like 5 million other things more important to me.."

You also wrote some other stuff like, "sad, very sad" and "What we need in this country is more disrespect for the flag, more abortions, more drug use, less religion.." The tone of your post was also wildly sarcastic. Why don't you stay the course? If you want to rewrite your post use the edit button.

You just shoot out the facist label..

Two people used the word fascist with regards to you. I said your ideas were fascist. What you're missing is that it is a fundamental element of democracy that people should be able to dissent. When you only give dissent lip-service (and I don't think you've even done that), you're more akin to a fascist than a democrat (and I use democrat in the sense of the government system, not the party).

The fact that that is one of the most important people to me tells me that you just give lip service to the idea of 'personal freedom'.

No. It shows he respects personal freedom. His hero said people have the right not to pledge allegiance. You suggest that that's not important and you criticize Perknose suggesting you deep down think they should support the troops and worship the flag. That isn't personal freedom to do as you choose. Also, it's interesting that all your examples of abortion and drug use are examples where you do want personal freedom. How can you actually claim to act in hte name of personal freedom?

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: Crimson

Originally posted by: Perknose
I'd like to add one other. Former Supreme Court Justice Robert Jackson, who, on Flag Day, June 14th, 1943, in the midst of the life and death struggle of WWll, wrote the decision that Jehovah Witness school children did NOT have to stand for the pledge of allegiance in school or salute the flag:

"If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion."

Such political courage and allegiance to the highest and purest principles of the United States of America, no matter the ignorant prevailing opinion of the war frenzied masses, is especially prescriptive for these jingoistic times.

I suppose your next most favorite person is whomever voted in favor of abortion?

I mean, I can totally see your point in having to show respect for the flag.. thats ruining America.. God forbid everyone shows some respect for the symbol of their freedom. What we need in this country is more disrespect for the flag, more abortions, more drug use, less religion.. and for the love of god, can we FINALLY pay teachers what they are worth? :roll:

Yeah.. good one Perk.. that would be TOPS on my list too.. Am I saying people should be forced to stand for the flag? No.. but it really wouldn't hurt.. But its no surprise to me that you would place that on you top list.. To me, that would be #5,624,043... Just a suggestion on something that might come before that... Hmm.. Maybe the founders of our country? Nyah... That would make too much sense.. Lets salute the guy that gives you the right to spit on the constitution!! But, I see where your priorities are.

Sad... truly sad..

Then you're an idiot. That justice stood against OVERWHELMING opposition and popular opinion to do his job and serve JUSTICE. If everyone in government would do that there just MIGHT be a chance for this nation, and a lot of us that right-wing conservatives complain about all the time would likely have no complaints to voice. Doing what's RIGHT instead of what's POPULAR is something to idolize.

I second his nomination of Supreme Court Justice Robert Jackson.

 

[Crimson]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: Crimson

"I said I agreed with you that people should not be forced to stand up for the Pledge, but I said there are like 5 million other things more important to me.."

You also wrote some other stuff like, "sad, very sad" and "What we need in this country is more disrespect for the flag, more abortions, more drug use, less religion.." The tone of your post was also wildly sarcastic. Why don't you stay the course? If you want to rewrite your post use the edit button.

You just shoot out the facist label..

Two people used the word fascist with regards to you. I said your ideas were fascist. What you're missing is that it is a fundamental element of democracy that people should be able to dissent. When you only give dissent lip-service (and I don't think you've even done that), you're more akin to a fascist than a democrat (and I use democrat in the sense of the government system, not the party).

The fact that that is one of the most important people to me tells me that you just give lip service to the idea of 'personal freedom'.

No. It shows he respects personal freedom. His hero said people have the right not to pledge allegiance. You suggest that that's not important and you criticize Perknose suggesting you deep down think they should support the troops and worship the flag. That isn't personal freedom to do as you choose. Also, it's interesting that all your examples of abortion and drug use are examples where you do want personal freedom. How can you actually claim to act in hte name of personal freedom?

I stand by everything I said.. If he truly valued personal freedom, he would put the founding fathers before a person like Robert Jackson.. but he did not, he did NOT list any of the founding fathers of our country. I stated that I AGREED with the position against requiring people to stand for the pledge, HOWEVER, I also think there have been perhaps dozens of other things which should be higher on his list than this one... maybe, the right of blacks to exist as 'humans'? Or the rights of women to vote.. Perhaps ending segregation? Did he mention any of those? No.. Why? I think its because he has an agenda to support.. as evidenced by his attack in his original message:

Such political courage and allegiance to the highest and purest principles of the United States of America, no matter the ignorant prevailing opinion of the war frenzied masses, is especially prescriptive for these jingoistic times.

Since he is supposidly SOOOOOOOOOOO high on personal freedom, why does he choose to label those whom he disagrees with as 'war frenzied masses'? Explain that.. Here is a person you claim is holding personal freedom to the highest level, and then he goes and labels those whom he disagrees with as 'ignorant'.. and he used the term 'masses'.. so we are implying the masses of this country are ignorant.

THAT to me is proof Perknose is doing nothing but giving lipservice to 'personal freedom'...

 

[Runner20]

Originally posted by: Czar
few on top of my head, not much into hero worshipping but these I have the highest respect for,

Kofi Annan and Nelson Mandela in politics

Steven Stahlberg, Feng Zhu, Craig Mullins, Linda Bergkvist, Pascal Blanche, Hyun Kyoungup, Anders Ehrenborg, Julian Johnson-Mortimer, Matt Clark are then just a few that have nothing to do with politics

Kofi Annan?? the man that oversaw the oil for scandal program? the man that can't find where the 10 billion dollars are hidden? the man that let Saddam and his boys make billions?

Don't forget that UN, under Kofi Annan, didn't do a thing about the millions being killed in Rawanda, and they are doing zilch about the slavery in the Sudan. So what a great role model, eh?

 

[Painman]

Originally posted by: Runner20

Originally posted by: Czar
few on top of my head, not much into hero worshipping but these I have the highest respect for,

Kofi Annan and Nelson Mandela in politics

Steven Stahlberg, Feng Zhu, Craig Mullins, Linda Bergkvist, Pascal Blanche, Hyun Kyoungup, Anders Ehrenborg, Julian Johnson-Mortimer, Matt Clark are then just a few that have nothing to do with politics

Kofi Annan?? the man that oversaw the oil for scandal program? the man that can't find where the 10 billion dollars are hidden? the man that let Saddam and his boys make billions?

Don't forget that UN, under Kofi Annan, didn't do a thing about the millions being killed in Rawanda, and they are doing zilch about the slavery in the Sudan. So what a great role model, eh?

Neither is the US, "champion of the oppressed" as we seem to have painted ourselves as a last resort in our justification for invading Iraq. There's already a thread on this board re: who really gave a flying fsck about liberating the Iraqi people before Bush flip-flopped his way like a fish out of water toward that rationale for the war he had already started. Pot, kettle, black, blah, blah, etc. etc. etc., since Bush also seem to flip-flop on whether the UN is even relevant or not.

Yeah. Getting back to heroes... I don't have too many, and they're both dead already, Albert Einstein, Carl Sagan.

 

[Runner20]

Originally posted by: Painman

Originally posted by: Runner20

Originally posted by: Czar
few on top of my head, not much into hero worshipping but these I have the highest respect for,

Kofi Annan and Nelson Mandela in politics

Steven Stahlberg, Feng Zhu, Craig Mullins, Linda Bergkvist, Pascal Blanche, Hyun Kyoungup, Anders Ehrenborg, Julian Johnson-Mortimer, Matt Clark are then just a few that have nothing to do with politics

Kofi Annan?? the man that oversaw the oil for scandal program? the man that can't find where the 10 billion dollars are hidden? the man that let Saddam and his boys make billions?

Don't forget that UN, under Kofi Annan, didn't do a thing about the millions being killed in Rawanda, and they are doing zilch about the slavery in the Sudan. So what a great role model, eh?

Neither is the US, "champion of the oppressed" as we seem to have painted ourselves as a last resort in our justification for invading Iraq. There's already a thread on this board re: who really gave a flying fsck about liberating the Iraqi people before Bush flip-flopped his way like a fish out of water toward that rationale for the war he had already started. Pot, kettle, black, blah, blah, etc. etc. etc., since Bush also seem to flip-flop on whether the UN is even relevant or not.

Yeah. Getting back to heroes... I don't have too many, and they're both dead already, Albert Einstein, Carl Sagan.

USA has done far more for the oppressed than the UN will ever do. Ask the Japanese, Germans and NOW the Iraqis. The UN is just the same thing as League Of Nations, which was a incompetant piece of junk. Its just a different name.

 

[Painman]

Originally posted by: Runner20

Originally posted by: Painman

Originally posted by: Runner20

Originally posted by: Czar
few on top of my head, not much into hero worshipping but these I have the highest respect for,

Kofi Annan and Nelson Mandela in politics

Steven Stahlberg, Feng Zhu, Craig Mullins, Linda Bergkvist, Pascal Blanche, Hyun Kyoungup, Anders Ehrenborg, Julian Johnson-Mortimer, Matt Clark are then just a few that have nothing to do with politics

Kofi Annan?? the man that oversaw the oil for scandal program? the man that can't find where the 10 billion dollars are hidden? the man that let Saddam and his boys make billions?

Don't forget that UN, under Kofi Annan, didn't do a thing about the millions being killed in Rawanda, and they are doing zilch about the slavery in the Sudan. So what a great role model, eh?

Neither is the US, "champion of the oppressed" as we seem to have painted ourselves as a last resort in our justification for invading Iraq. There's already a thread on this board re: who really gave a flying fsck about liberating the Iraqi people before Bush flip-flopped his way like a fish out of water toward that rationale for the war he had already started. Pot, kettle, black, blah, blah, etc. etc. etc., since Bush also seem to flip-flop on whether the UN is even relevant or not.

Yeah. Getting back to heroes... I don't have too many, and they're both dead already, Albert Einstein, Carl Sagan.

USA has done far more for the oppressed than the UN will ever do. Ask the Japanese, Germans and NOW the Iraqis. The UN is just the same thing as League Of Nations, which was a incompetant piece of junk. Its just a different name.

Apples are red (and shiny, if you polish them on your shirtsleeve). Oranges are rough-skinned and... orange. If you REALLY need further elucidation re: the differences between Germany/Japan in WWII and Iraq circa 2003, then I'd have to declare your education in history to date a failure.

(Hint: Germany and Japan both declared war on us and had populations that supported the fascist ambitions of their respective govt's.)

 

[Runner20]

Originally posted by: Painman

Originally posted by: Runner20

Originally posted by: Painman

Originally posted by: Runner20

Originally posted by: Czar
few on top of my head, not much into hero worshipping but these I have the highest respect for,

Kofi Annan and Nelson Mandela in politics

Steven Stahlberg, Feng Zhu, Craig Mullins, Linda Bergkvist, Pascal Blanche, Hyun Kyoungup, Anders Ehrenborg, Julian Johnson-Mortimer, Matt Clark are then just a few that have nothing to do with politics

Kofi Annan?? the man that oversaw the oil for scandal program? the man that can't find where the 10 billion dollars are hidden? the man that let Saddam and his boys make billions?

Don't forget that UN, under Kofi Annan, didn't do a thing about the millions being killed in Rawanda, and they are doing zilch about the slavery in the Sudan. So what a great role model, eh?

Neither is the US, "champion of the oppressed" as we seem to have painted ourselves as a last resort in our justification for invading Iraq. There's already a thread on this board re: who really gave a flying fsck about liberating the Iraqi people before Bush flip-flopped his way like a fish out of water toward that rationale for the war he had already started. Pot, kettle, black, blah, blah, etc. etc. etc., since Bush also seem to flip-flop on whether the UN is even relevant or not.

Yeah. Getting back to heroes... I don't have too many, and they're both dead already, Albert Einstein, Carl Sagan.

USA has done far more for the oppressed than the UN will ever do. Ask the Japanese, Germans and NOW the Iraqis. The UN is just the same thing as League Of Nations, which was a incompetant piece of junk. Its just a different name.

Apples are red (and shiny, if you polish them on your shirtsleeve). Oranges are rough-skinned and... orange. If you REALLY need further elucidation re: the differences between Germany/Japan in WWII and Iraq circa 2003, then I'd have to declare your education in history to date a failure.

(Hint: Germany and Japan both declared war on us and had populations that supported the fascist ambitions of their respective govt's.)

No you just have a left wing mindset and cannot stand that Iraq WILL be a democracy in the future, just like Japan and Germany became, thanks to the US. Do you think that everything was smooth and there was so violence in post WW2 Germany?? There were many ex Nazi's who became rebels and commited a lot of attacks against US and Germans. Almost the same situation in Iraq today.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Runner20

Originally posted by: Painman

Originally posted by: Runner20

Originally posted by: Painman

Originally posted by: Runner20

Originally posted by: Czar
few on top of my head, not much into hero worshipping but these I have the highest respect for,

Kofi Annan and Nelson Mandela in politics

Steven Stahlberg, Feng Zhu, Craig Mullins, Linda Bergkvist, Pascal Blanche, Hyun Kyoungup, Anders Ehrenborg, Julian Johnson-Mortimer, Matt Clark are then just a few that have nothing to do with politics

Kofi Annan?? the man that oversaw the oil for scandal program? the man that can't find where the 10 billion dollars are hidden? the man that let Saddam and his boys make billions?

Don't forget that UN, under Kofi Annan, didn't do a thing about the millions being killed in Rawanda, and they are doing zilch about the slavery in the Sudan. So what a great role model, eh?

Neither is the US, "champion of the oppressed" as we seem to have painted ourselves as a last resort in our justification for invading Iraq. There's already a thread on this board re: who really gave a flying fsck about liberating the Iraqi people before Bush flip-flopped his way like a fish out of water toward that rationale for the war he had already started. Pot, kettle, black, blah, blah, etc. etc. etc., since Bush also seem to flip-flop on whether the UN is even relevant or not.

Yeah. Getting back to heroes... I don't have too many, and they're both dead already, Albert Einstein, Carl Sagan.

USA has done far more for the oppressed than the UN will ever do. Ask the Japanese, Germans and NOW the Iraqis. The UN is just the same thing as League Of Nations, which was a incompetant piece of junk. Its just a different name.

Apples are red (and shiny, if you polish them on your shirtsleeve). Oranges are rough-skinned and... orange. If you REALLY need further elucidation re: the differences between Germany/Japan in WWII and Iraq circa 2003, then I'd have to declare your education in history to date a failure.

(Hint: Germany and Japan both declared war on us and had populations that supported the fascist ambitions of their respective govt's.)

No you just have a left wing mindset and cannot stand that Iraq WILL be a democracy in the future, just like Japan and Germany became, thanks to the US. Do you think that everything was smooth and there was so violence in post WW2 Germany?? There were many ex Nazi's who became rebels and commited a lot of attacks against US and Germans. Almost the same situation in Iraq today.

Hello!!! We did not liberate Japan or Germany, we conquered them along with our allies. Then we occupied them and molded their Government after our own (Good for Japan and West Germany not so Good for East Germany)

 

[Piano Man]

My Mom (Still kickin')
MLK Jr.
Grandpa Farrell
Malcolm X
Miles Davis
John Coltrane
Ghandi
Steve Biko
Mother Teresa
Noam Chomsky

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: Crimson

I stand by everything I said.. If he truly valued personal freedom, he would put the founding fathers before a person like Robert Jackson.. but he did not, he did NOT list any of the founding fathers of our country.

So anyone who values personal freedom must list an American founding father as being top on their list of heros? What if your British and you don't list those guys? Does that mean you don't value personal freedom? You haven't offered any reason to think that if someone truly values personal freedom, they would list the founding fathers.

I think its because he has an agenda to support.. as evidenced by his attack in his original message:

Such political courage and allegiance to the highest and purest principles of the United States of America, no matter the ignorant prevailing opinion of the war frenzied masses, is especially prescriptive for these jingoistic times.

Since he is supposidly SOOOOOOOOOOO high on personal freedom, why does he choose to label those whom he disagrees with as 'war frenzied masses'?

I don't see the relation between calling people war frenzied and not being for personal freedom. It's possible to do both. It sounds like you think only pro-war people can value personal freedom, but it's hard to tell because you haven't really explained the relationship.

"Here is a person you claim is holding personal freedom to the highest level, and then he goes and labels those whom he disagrees with as 'ignorant'.. and he used the term 'masses'.. so we are implying the masses of this country are ignorant."

And? That doesn't go to personal freedom. Generally, masses are antithetical to personal freedom. The more collectivity is prized, personal freedom generally goes down. Personal freedom means the right to disagree with the masses, with the people around you. I'm not sure what you think personal freedom is, but it sounds like it means "pro war". Freedom means doing what you want despite what society tells you to do. Perknose was saying that the judge was in an environment where it wasn't popular to criticize the use of the pledge of allegiance. Personal freedom in that situation means being able not to take the pledge of allegiance. That judge stood up for personal freedom, the freedom not to take the pledge.

THAT to me is proof Perknose is doing nothing but giving lipservice to 'personal freedom'...

No, it only shows that he thinks in certain periods of time the masses are ignorant and war-frenzied.

 

[Chris S]

My Heroes:

President Thomas Jefferson - Died July 4, 1826

General George Patton - Died December 21, 1945

President Ronald Reagan - Died June 5, 2004

My Dad - Still alive and kicking!!!

All of the above and Lance Armstrong - what can I say, I'm a biker and he kicks a$$.

 

[Jadow]

Hulk Hogan
and
William Shatner

are still alive, so my heroes are A-OK