My experience in hiring a contract computer programmer

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
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The very small company I work for has used me as a programmer for their custom software. I have no programming training, but I do have minimal experience with several self-taught languages. I got a fairly professional looking Visual Basic program written, but ran into a few issues that I couldn?t solve. My boss has a friend who owns a company that does contract programming. So we sent the code with a vague list of seven changes that were wanted. For example, one of those changes was to give all forms an identical look and feel (I consider that a requirement to appear like a professional software product). After several emails and phone calls, I created an explict, detailed list of tasks and they gave us a price to do them all within 3 months. We figured it was a decent price and it fit our timeline needs.

9 months later, we still do not have a functioning program from them. It went from very rare error messages (we use my program every day and had an error roughly once a month or so) to error messages (and program crashes) with just about any click of the mouse. I keep sending lists of every error and how I got them, and they keep sending ?updates? which just have different errors at every turn.

Some of the detailed lists of things haven?t even been touched, and now they are trying to wiggle out of it. For example, I provided two forms to get user input for the same task. One form was overly-simple but had the exact look and feel that I wanted. The other form was far more advanced, but I just threw it together at the last minute to show them what inputs were needed (thus it looked like crap and was full of bugs). I said the second form ?is unfinished and has bugs but I want it to be used exclusively instead of the simple form?. I also attached a list of the bugs that I needed fixed on that advanced form. What did they do? Delete the simple form and leave the advanced form as is. They keep sending me the words I used above ?to be used exclusively? as meaning that they were not supposed to change it. I keep mentioning my ?give all forms an identical look and feel? requirement as well as my list of bugs in their quote. Nope, they refuse to do that work. Arg.

I also had many functioning parts, such as graph displays, which were not discussed in the list of changes since they functioned perfectly and had the look that we wanted. What did they do? Delete all of that, and put in shareware crap components that look horrible and don?t have the features that my programming did. I?ve requested that they (a) return it to the state it was in or (b) program it to look as good as I had it and to have at least as many features as it did have. They say the only thing that they can do is to have me find my own shareware components, purchase them, and give them the components. Is that at all normal? Why replace functioning code with components that need to be purchased? How am I to know what to buy, or how to find them? Why wouldn?t this be in the original quote if they felt it was necessary? Are components commonly used in coding? Arg.

Luckilly we only paid half the contract amount up front. And they aren't getting another dime if I can help it. Now for months of angry emails and phone calls from that company demanding the rest of the money.

Rant over.
 

FoBoT

No Lifer
Apr 30, 2001
63,084
15
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fobot.com
sounds like you got boned :(

you did keep a copy of the original working code that you did, right?

you know what they say, if you want a job done right, you have to do it yourself
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
26,047
4,691
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Originally posted by: FoBoT
sounds like you got boned :(

you did keep a copy of the original working code that you did, right?

you know what they say, if you want a job done right, you have to do it yourself
Of course I kept a copy (and backups every 2 weeks of my work and theirs). But it'll be a lot of my own work to merge the two and take the best of both.

At least were only out a few thousand. And we did get some things done that I could never do. It is now a mixture of Visual C for the time critical sections and Visual Basic (for the user input).
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
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Hard to believe this contractor is still in business.

It sounds like you should gather up documentation of what you did and did not request, and make up a formal report of what they actually did.

Then, if you can establish that they did not carry out the contract, you can give them the option of completing the contracted work in a timely manner or have the contract terminated for non-completion.

If you didn't document what you want well enough to have a strong case, you're probably best off paying them and just walking away.

I hope for your sake you keep archives of your code, so you can revert back to a clean version and try again with someone else.

Is that at all normal? Why replace functioning code with components that need to be purchased?
Not unless you gave them a reason to think that is what you wanted done, no.
 

Drakkon

Diamond Member
Aug 14, 2001
8,401
1
0
can you say what company this contractor is for? or is it just a single person?

my company wants to do a smilar sort of thing, outsource to "contract" programmers and i keep telling them something bad will come of it...looks like this is a perfect example :(
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
I guess you got unlucky! A lot of people are bums, and a lot aren't. I've noticed that a good capable programmer is worth a half dozen lazy bums (at least). It sounds like you got a bum instead of a star. Have you met with the programmer, and how does he seem? I know you've dumped a lot of money into this, but if you find a person experienced in VB and they hammer out code at 10 hours/day they may be able to resurrect this mess of a project.
They say the only thing that they can do is to have me find my own shareware components, purchase them, and give them the components. Is that at all normal? Why replace functioning code with components that need to be purchased? How am I to know what to buy, or how to find them? Why wouldn?t this be in the original quote if they felt it was necessary? Are components commonly used in coding? Arg.
Third party components are used a lot of the time, though most people prefer not to in most cases. Sometimes, however, they can do just what you need and their price is far less than developing from scratch. They shouldn't expect you, the non-developer, to identify them. They should find them and then approach you saying "I can add this functionality for such and such, or buy this component for this amount." You can then choose based on price and the fact that the third party component won't be as customizable.

Beware about throwing in too many third party components. I think it could be a lazy approach, but it depends on the app.

It sounds like there may have been a big break down in requirements and specifications, which is par for the course with this sort of thing. A client says they want such and such, and are vague with what they want, then cry when the developer doesn't offer it. So, as time goes on they nail down the specs more accurately, and hours upon hours of developer's time have been wasted. Also, editing the application at this point makes it messier and messier.

The above is probably part of it, though based upon your post it sounds mostly like you just got unlucky and got a bum programmer/firm to do your work. How much are you paying them? If your firm has long term needs for this, put a contract-to-hire position in the paper and start interviewing...or go through a recruiter, if you don't really know how to interview a programmer.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
BTW I should say, and realize I may be biased, that not all contracting experiences will be negative. I've worked at a couple of contracting firms and the first did get a lot of repeat business, as did the second. If you don't want to hire a full time programmer, a contractor can be of benefit because they come in and out at your beckon call. Also, as you build up a relationship with a firm you will come to know what sort of quality they extend. If they are a quality firm they will not pass of useless contractors to their clients. Another benefit of contract work is that if the contractor has need of some experience they can immediately call upon their superiors. If you hire your own guy he may not have anybody to go to (other than google!).
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
26,047
4,691
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Originally posted by: Drakkon
can you say what company this contractor is for? or is it just a single person?

my company wants to do a smilar sort of thing, outsource to "contract" programmers and i keep telling them something bad will come of it...looks like this is a perfect example :(
PM'd the name. I won't put the name on a forum for various reasons.

Maybe I was unlucky, and maybe I'm too much of a perfectionist. But if you do it, be very, very careful to have a very detailed list of exactly what should be done (and more importantly what should not be touched).
 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
19,441
86
91
Should have called my cousin in bangalore. He could have coded it for $4.87.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
26,047
4,691
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Originally posted by: Skoorb
It sounds like there may have been a big break down in requirements and specifications, which is par for the course with this sort of thing. A client says they want such and such, and are vague with what they want, then cry when the developer doesn't offer it. So, as time goes on they nail down the specs more accurately, and hours upon hours of developer's time have been wasted. Also, editing the application at this point makes it messier and messier.

The above is probably part of it, though based upon your post it sounds mostly like you just got unlucky and got a bum programmer/firm to do your work. How much are you paying them? If your firm has long term needs for this, put a contract-to-hire position in the paper and start interviewing...or go through a recruiter, if you don't really know how to interview a programmer.
Both. At one point, they said they could put in Excel graphs and make them vastly superior to my graphs. It was outside the original scope, and I said it wasn't needed that the original graphs were fine. They still went ahead and sent sample graphs to my boss. She liked them and said they are good, but not to add to the original time or expense requirement. Turned out the Excel graphs wouldn't work, and they just deleted everything and put in the crap shareware graphs. Bad communication yes. But they also overstated their abilites and lured with pictures that they couldn't provide.

The total cost is <$10k as it was a small project. But that $10k is a lot for a company of 4 full-time employees. I would have loved the hire our own programmer route. There just isn't the money.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: dullard
Originally posted by: Skoorb
It sounds like there may have been a big break down in requirements and specifications, which is par for the course with this sort of thing. A client says they want such and such, and are vague with what they want, then cry when the developer doesn't offer it. So, as time goes on they nail down the specs more accurately, and hours upon hours of developer's time have been wasted. Also, editing the application at this point makes it messier and messier.

The above is probably part of it, though based upon your post it sounds mostly like you just got unlucky and got a bum programmer/firm to do your work. How much are you paying them? If your firm has long term needs for this, put a contract-to-hire position in the paper and start interviewing...or go through a recruiter, if you don't really know how to interview a programmer.
Both. At one point, they said they could put in Excel graphs and make them vastly superior to my graphs. It was outside the original scope, and I said it wasn't needed that the original graphs were fine. They still went ahead and sent sample graphs to my boss. She liked them and said they are good, but not to add to the original time or expense requirement. Turned out the Excel graphs wouldn't work, and they just deleted everything and put in the crap shareware graphs. Bad communication yes. But they also overstated their abilites and lured with pictures that they couldn't provide.

The total cost is <$10k as it was a small project. But that $10k is a lot for a company of 4 full-time employees. I would have loved the hire our own programmer route. There just isn't the money.

Did you try the Job networking thread at the top? Lots of talent in here.


 

Drakkon

Diamond Member
Aug 14, 2001
8,401
1
0
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: dullard
Originally posted by: Skoorb
It sounds like there may have been a big break down in requirements and specifications, which is par for the course with this sort of thing. A client says they want such and such, and are vague with what they want, then cry when the developer doesn't offer it. So, as time goes on they nail down the specs more accurately, and hours upon hours of developer's time have been wasted. Also, editing the application at this point makes it messier and messier.

The above is probably part of it, though based upon your post it sounds mostly like you just got unlucky and got a bum programmer/firm to do your work. How much are you paying them? If your firm has long term needs for this, put a contract-to-hire position in the paper and start interviewing...or go through a recruiter, if you don't really know how to interview a programmer.
Both. At one point, they said they could put in Excel graphs and make them vastly superior to my graphs. It was outside the original scope, and I said it wasn't needed that the original graphs were fine. They still went ahead and sent sample graphs to my boss. She liked them and said they are good, but not to add to the original time or expense requirement. Turned out the Excel graphs wouldn't work, and they just deleted everything and put in the crap shareware graphs. Bad communication yes. But they also overstated their abilites and lured with pictures that they couldn't provide.

The total cost is <$10k as it was a small project. But that $10k is a lot for a company of 4 full-time employees. I would have loved the hire our own programmer route. There just isn't the money.

Did you try the Job networking thread at the top? Lots of talent in here.
What programmer will work full time for $10K a year? :confused:

 
Sep 29, 2004
18,656
68
91
1) Don't pay for services not rendered.

2) sh!t goes in, sh!t comes out.

By the way, programmers are not software engineers. Programmers don't know cr@p about design and hopw to handle more complex projects. They probably started wailing on the keyboard and turned the code itno a big mess.

3) pay me to do it in my spare time (PM me if you will consider this).
 

Yossarian

Lifer
Dec 26, 2000
18,010
1
81
Originally posted by: Skoorb
If you don't want to hire a full time programmer, a contractor can be of benefit because they come in and out at your beckon call.

Main Entry: 3beck
Function: noun
1 chiefly Scottish : BOW, CURTSY
2 a : a beckoning gesture b : SUMMONS, BIDDING
- at one's beck and call : ready to obey one's command immediately
 

Armitage

Banned
Feb 23, 2001
8,086
0
0
Originally posted by: Drakkon
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: dullard
Originally posted by: Skoorb
It sounds like there may have been a big break down in requirements and specifications, which is par for the course with this sort of thing. A client says they want such and such, and are vague with what they want, then cry when the developer doesn't offer it. So, as time goes on they nail down the specs more accurately, and hours upon hours of developer's time have been wasted. Also, editing the application at this point makes it messier and messier.

The above is probably part of it, though based upon your post it sounds mostly like you just got unlucky and got a bum programmer/firm to do your work. How much are you paying them? If your firm has long term needs for this, put a contract-to-hire position in the paper and start interviewing...or go through a recruiter, if you don't really know how to interview a programmer.
Both. At one point, they said they could put in Excel graphs and make them vastly superior to my graphs. It was outside the original scope, and I said it wasn't needed that the original graphs were fine. They still went ahead and sent sample graphs to my boss. She liked them and said they are good, but not to add to the original time or expense requirement. Turned out the Excel graphs wouldn't work, and they just deleted everything and put in the crap shareware graphs. Bad communication yes. But they also overstated their abilites and lured with pictures that they couldn't provide.

The total cost is <$10k as it was a small project. But that $10k is a lot for a company of 4 full-time employees. I would have loved the hire our own programmer route. There just isn't the money.

Did you try the Job networking thread at the top? Lots of talent in here.
What programmer will work full time for $10K a year? :confused:

None, but if you're out of work, a few weeks work might be welcome.
 

tami

Lifer
Nov 14, 2004
11,588
3
81
use another company. terminate that contract (use a lawyer if necessary), and since they didn't meet their end of the deal, it should be easier. tell them "to hell with you, we'll go somewhere else." but make sure they get rid of all code so they don't sell it for their own benefit (doesn't look like they know what they're doing anyway).
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
26,047
4,691
126
Originally posted by: IHateMyJob2004
3) pay me to do it in my spare time (PM me if you will consider this).
I still am crossing my fingers that it will get programmed for us as the contract stated. But that might never happen. We don't have the money for it at the moment (maybe at the end of 2005), so I cannot offer any work right now. But what do you guys think it would cost to do one Visual Basic form that does the following:

I hope I can explain this sufficiently in the short time I have left today. We have a machine that heats up, maintains temperatures, and cools down. Simplest possible example (I googled it, not my picture) In that example, there are 4 temperature holds, two temperature increases, and one temperature decrease. Typical more complex example, this is my software before I sent it for changes. In this example, the temperature increases, then holds. Following that hold, there are 30 cycles of the simple pattern shown in the first link. Remember, this is my program, so I already have this done (with a very rigid form about how many temperature increases, decreases, and holds are possible, as well as strict limits on what can be inside a cycle).

What I need is something that is flexible. I need an input form that has a relatively unlimited number of temperature increases, decreases, and holds. I need an input form that lets anything be inside a cycle (from simple to complex). The most simple cycle is to heat and then cool without any holds. A complex cycle may involve any combination of heating, holds, and cools in any order. And one last thing: I would like the ability to nest cycles as if a cycle were a heating, cooling, or holding stage.

For each of the heating/cooling inputs, I need to let the user enter the final temperature, the rate to approach that temperature, whether to perform an optical detection during the temperature change, and if so at what temperature. For the temperature holds I need the user to be able to input how long to hold, and if an optical detection is to be done in that hold. For the cycles, I need the user to be able to say what is inside the cycle and how many times to perform the cycle.

Then I need the standard command buttons: the ability to save or load these temperature protocols. The ability to accept or cancel the changes. And data checks (temperatures of <0°C or >100°C are unrealistic, negative hold times are unrealistic, etc).

I really would love a sample graph to display as the user enters the data, but that might just be dreaming (I tried it and it didn't look too good). This sample graph was not included in the contract in this thread.

Edit: hmm, the text is messed up on our webpage. It is under construction this week, so the text doesn't match the pictures exactly.
 

everman

Lifer
Nov 5, 2002
11,288
1
0
It doesn't sound too complicated, Just doing simple things with numbers really. Unfortunately you got stuck with some lazy dumbasses.
Does the contract stipulate any terms for contract termination? It sounds like they're taking far too much time with too little results. I'd just dump them, but It doesn't sound like they even deserve what you already paid them.
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
I'd guess you'd want a grid component for the data entry, and a fair amount of coding to support the nesting.

Each row of the grid would be one operation.

For nested cycles you could either use a single row with a display/edit button to view the sub-grid, or you could use multiple rows with begin/end marks and possibly use a different color.

For free components take a look at www.CodeProject.com, there is also a grid component shipped with VB6 and there are several commercial grid / sheet components