• We’re currently investigating an issue related to the forum theme and styling that is impacting page layout and visual formatting. The problem has been identified, and we are actively working on a resolution. There is no impact to user data or functionality, this is strictly a front-end display issue. We’ll post an update once the fix has been deployed. Thanks for your patience while we get this sorted.

My dad's a teacher. Trust me - blame the administrators!

I feel that this is an issue that everyone can agree on: Appropriate spending in schools.

First, as the son of a teacher, I can verify that they don't live high on the hog. Sure, they get benifits, insurance, et cetera, but that's only after they work at the same job for many, many years. To get said job, both college and grad school are required. The hours suck, too - most teachers spend several hours a night grading papers, and I can testify that of the five teachers in the physics department at my high school, not one slept more than 4-5 hours a night - and they routinely would show up at work even if they were at death's door.

So, if teachers are paid so poorly, why is all this money going down the tubes?

Administrators.

At a school of 2100 students, there are 5 principals and at least nine secretaries working at a given time. That's 14 people, and assuming an average $60,000 a year salary after benifits (it's likely more - remember, these are principals!), that's almost eight hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year - for one school!

Of course, they've reduced everything else - there's now only one school psychologist on call, and he or she is usually in one pointless meeting or another. At a school that averages over three successful suicides a year (likely more), it seems a bit odd, no?

Go up the ladder a little bit, and it gets worse. There's an obvious "you scratch my back, and I scratch yours" thing going on here.

Examples:

1. Foodservice. $3 gets you a low-quality "sub" sandwich or other low-nutrition junk. Considering that the same $3 will get me a sandwich at Subway that has real meat and fresh veggies on it somewhere, I'm guessing there's a large profit margin involved.

2.Software. The school system spends truckloads on Novellware, which costs a mint, makes everying hideously slow, and gives the poor computer guy aneurysms. (Coincidentally, he's only there part time, in a school with hundreds of computers.) The Physics department has paid for Macs out of their own pocket, mostly because they're sick of the endless bugs in the Windows port of their modelling software.

3. Texbooks. Why, exactly, can't we bargain for lower prices, or buy textbooks that are'nt $80 each? Simple: The buyers get free lunches from sales reps, and don't want to bite the hand that feeds them.

4. Stupid regulations. The high school is required not to simply boot students out of class if they're unruly; instead,"problem students" cannot be "let go". They have a team of security guards that deals with them, and is constantly herding them around - add in assorted random related costs, and it gets very expensive very quickly. It would likely cost less to actually send them to remedial classes in a reform school - but that's not politically correct. (This applies to students of ALL ethnicities.)

5. Stupid programs. $500,000 a year is being spent on a program to re-organize kids into "smaller learning communities". In other words, an amount of money equal to the pay of twelve fresh-out-of-grad-school teachers is spent on organizing kids not by grade, but by the first letter of their last name.

If we started being a bit smarter about school spending, budget cuts would'nt be necessary.
 
There are other problems too, such as needing the ability to fire bad teachers yet protect the good teachers from the wrath of administrators. Also, rewarding the good teachers with bonuses would provide some incentive for other teachers to become better.
 
While I agree in part, the bigger problem is the various levels of administration. Not only is there school administration, but then there is school DISTRICT administration. Then, in many areas, there is an Intermediate School District administration on top of that. My personal feeling is that school districts need to be consolidated and just have county level administrations (with state/federal oversight) and get rid of a couple of the unnecessary layers.

And yes, teachers should be getting paid far more than they do.
 
Originally posted by: Slick5150
While I agree in part, the bigger problem is the various levels of administration. Not only is there school administration, but then there is school DISTRICT administration. Then, in many areas, there is an Intermediate School District administration on top of that. My personal feeling is that school districts need to be consolidated and just have county level administrations (with state/federal oversight) and get rid of a couple of the unnecessary layers.

And yes, teachers should be getting paid far more than they do.

Eh - from what my dad says, multiple layers of administration are a GOOD thing. (They did more or less what you're talking about, and it's a nightmare trying to requisition anything.)

Also, the state is the source of a lot of stupidity. For example, the tourism department mandated that school MUST start after sept. 1st. However, this means that finals are after winter break, so the professors must then grade all of their finals in about four days.
 
Originally posted by: Brainonska511
There are other problems too, such as needing the ability to fire bad teachers yet protect the good teachers from the wrath of administrators. Also, rewarding the good teachers with bonuses would provide some incentive for other teachers to become better.

Another big problem is having to pay teachers the same regardless of what they teach. I personally would say that a good (computer science / math / physics / chem / biology ) instructor is worth much more (to society as a whole) than a good ( home ec / art / phys ed ) instructor. That extra worth should be reflected in their pay. Unfortunately, teachers' unions prevent this sort of thing from happening.
 
Originally posted by: ebaycj
Originally posted by: Brainonska511
There are other problems too, such as needing the ability to fire bad teachers yet protect the good teachers from the wrath of administrators. Also, rewarding the good teachers with bonuses would provide some incentive for other teachers to become better.

Another big problem is having to pay teachers the same regardless of what they teach. I personally would say that a good (computer science / math / physics / chem / biology ) instructor is worth much more (to society as a whole) than a good ( home ec / art / phys ed ) instructor. That extra worth should be reflected in their pay. Unfortunately, teachers' unions prevent this sort of thing from happening.

Once again...nope.

At my old high school, the art metal teacher was, in fact, a commercial success in his own right. He was skilled at teaching stained glass, "hot" glass, mosaic, welding, jewelry construction and design, casting, fusing, and more. Due to his tutelage, several students every year recieved scholarships for art.

The woodshop teacher was also the automotive teacher - and as a former contractor and hot-rod enthusiast, he did both very well. He also taught a class in construction for students desiring to become apprentice contractors, too.

Phys-ed teachers, too, often must get a degree in education. While not quite as study-intensive as calculus, they generally have massive class sizes, and a large degree of responsibility for safety - students are stupid, and they have a hard job.

The "Home Ec" teacher also teaches a class for young mothers on proper care of a child. This is no mean feat - many of these girls have nearly no income, and don't understand pregnancy, let alone medical insurance.

The cooking teacher? She's part-time.
 
Originally posted by: Cheesehead
I feel that this is an issue that everyone can agree on: Appropriate spending in schools.

First, as the son of a teacher, I can verify that they don't live high on the hog. Sure, they get benifits, insurance, et cetera, but that's only after they work at the same job for many, many years. To get said job, both college and grad school are required. The hours suck, too - most teachers spend several hours a night grading papers, and I can testify that of the five teachers in the physics department at my high school, not one slept more than 4-5 hours a night - and they routinely would show up at work even if they were at death's door.

So, if teachers are paid so poorly, why is all this money going down the tubes?

Administrators.

At a school of 2100 students, there are 5 principals and at least nine secretaries working at a given time.

That's 14 people, and assuming an average $60,000 a year salary after benifits (it's likely more - remember, these are principals!), that's almost eight hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year - for one school!

Sorry but that is the Republican way.

Oh and they feel Teachers should make same wage as other service staff $2.13hr.
 
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Cheesehead
I feel that this is an issue that everyone can agree on: Appropriate spending in schools.

First, as the son of a teacher, I can verify that they don't live high on the hog. Sure, they get benifits, insurance, et cetera, but that's only after they work at the same job for many, many years. To get said job, both college and grad school are required. The hours suck, too - most teachers spend several hours a night grading papers, and I can testify that of the five teachers in the physics department at my high school, not one slept more than 4-5 hours a night - and they routinely would show up at work even if they were at death's door.

So, if teachers are paid so poorly, why is all this money going down the tubes?

Administrators.

At a school of 2100 students, there are 5 principals and at least nine secretaries working at a given time.

That's 14 people, and assuming an average $60,000 a year salary after benifits (it's likely more - remember, these are principals!), that's almost eight hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year - for one school!

Sorry but that is the Republican way.

Oh and they feel Teachers should make same wage as other service staff $2.13hr.

Hmmm.....Democrats run most inner cities, which have absolutely horrible schools, yet somehow its the Republicans fault......

 
I still do not see any justification for a $80.00 Textbook. However, that may be a number on the low-side. It would be easier to pay the teacher to write their own textbook.

Lets see $80.00 X 2,100 = $168,000.00. You wonder why college students have to pay for their own textbooks? If you just purchased the last edition you can probably save 1/4th of that. Why does it require a textbook to teach a class? Some classes could easily be taught with notes and handouts.
 
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Cheesehead
I feel that this is an issue that everyone can agree on: Appropriate spending in schools.

First, as the son of a teacher, I can verify that they don't live high on the hog. Sure, they get benifits, insurance, et cetera, but that's only after they work at the same job for many, many years. To get said job, both college and grad school are required. The hours suck, too - most teachers spend several hours a night grading papers, and I can testify that of the five teachers in the physics department at my high school, not one slept more than 4-5 hours a night - and they routinely would show up at work even if they were at death's door.

So, if teachers are paid so poorly, why is all this money going down the tubes?

Administrators.

At a school of 2100 students, there are 5 principals and at least nine secretaries working at a given time.

That's 14 people, and assuming an average $60,000 a year salary after benifits (it's likely more - remember, these are principals!), that's almost eight hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year - for one school!

Sorry but that is the Republican way.

Oh and they feel Teachers should make same wage as other service staff $2.13hr.

Hmmm.....Democrats run most inner cities, which have absolutely horrible schools, yet somehow its the Republicans fault......

Why do you people need to make this a Democrat/Rebuplican issue? It is EVERYONE's fault. The teachers unions, the administrators, the state legislators that set this all up, the parents that see schools as day-care or just don't follow up on the quality of their children's education.
 
Originally posted by: Brainonska511
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Cheesehead
I feel that this is an issue that everyone can agree on: Appropriate spending in schools.

First, as the son of a teacher, I can verify that they don't live high on the hog. Sure, they get benifits, insurance, et cetera, but that's only after they work at the same job for many, many years. To get said job, both college and grad school are required. The hours suck, too - most teachers spend several hours a night grading papers, and I can testify that of the five teachers in the physics department at my high school, not one slept more than 4-5 hours a night - and they routinely would show up at work even if they were at death's door.

So, if teachers are paid so poorly, why is all this money going down the tubes?

Administrators.

At a school of 2100 students, there are 5 principals and at least nine secretaries working at a given time.

That's 14 people, and assuming an average $60,000 a year salary after benifits (it's likely more - remember, these are principals!), that's almost eight hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year - for one school!

Sorry but that is the Republican way.

Oh and they feel Teachers should make same wage as other service staff $2.13hr.

Hmmm.....Democrats run most inner cities, which have absolutely horrible schools, yet somehow its the Republicans fault......

Why do you people need to make this a Democrat/Rebuplican issue? It is EVERYONE's fault. The teachers unions, the administrators, the state legislators that set this all up, the parents that see schools as day-care or just don't follow up on the quality of their children's education.


I completely understand that its everyones fault, I just find it funny when people like Dave try and pin our failing educational system on Republicans, when its Democrats that have been in charge of the pit of our educational system, the inner cities.
 
Originally posted by: Brainonska511

Why do you people need to make this a Democrat/Rebuplican issue? It is EVERYONE's fault. The teachers unions, the administrators, the state legislators that set this all up, the parents that see schools as day-care or just don't follow up on the quality of their children's education.

OH, SNAP!

(sorry..needed to get that out of my system...)

I throughly agree. Democrats are trying to be too politically correct ("Let's get rid of remedial classes!"), and Republicans are not focusing on where the money mis-management really is. Everyone really is at fault.

Thanks for bringing up the issue of parents - you're right. We'd save a fortune if we just kicked out all the kids that repeatedly committed assault while in school - yes, there are, in fact, quite a few of them. Of course, parents can't be bothered to care for their own offspring.

 
I agree with the OP. There is no need for 5 principals in a single school. You can blame the unions for forcing districts to promote or hire x amount of administration. The union wins because a higher salary == more due money.

We had a district admin here in minneapolis in the Hopkins school district making about 200K a year with unlimited banking of hours for vacation. When he wants to retire he had enough in 2004 for about 800,000+ in buyout from vacation. Oh yeah and dont forget the leased vehicle at a tune of about 800 per month. Admins running around in escalades on the tax payers dollar sends a nice warm feeling into my heart knowing the money is being well spent.

 
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: Brainonska511
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Cheesehead
I feel that this is an issue that everyone can agree on: Appropriate spending in schools.

First, as the son of a teacher, I can verify that they don't live high on the hog. Sure, they get benifits, insurance, et cetera, but that's only after they work at the same job for many, many years. To get said job, both college and grad school are required. The hours suck, too - most teachers spend several hours a night grading papers, and I can testify that of the five teachers in the physics department at my high school, not one slept more than 4-5 hours a night - and they routinely would show up at work even if they were at death's door.

So, if teachers are paid so poorly, why is all this money going down the tubes?

Administrators.

At a school of 2100 students, there are 5 principals and at least nine secretaries working at a given time.

That's 14 people, and assuming an average $60,000 a year salary after benifits (it's likely more - remember, these are principals!), that's almost eight hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year - for one school!

Sorry but that is the Republican way.

Oh and they feel Teachers should make same wage as other service staff $2.13hr.

Hmmm.....Democrats run most inner cities, which have absolutely horrible schools, yet somehow its the Republicans fault......

Why do you people need to make this a Democrat/Rebuplican issue? It is EVERYONE's fault. The teachers unions, the administrators, the state legislators that set this all up, the parents that see schools as day-care or just don't follow up on the quality of their children's education.

I completely understand that its everyones fault,

I just find it funny when people like Dave try and pin our failing educational system on Republicans, when its Democrats that have been in charge of the pit of our educational system, the inner cities.
Hey, Republicans have been in charge last 7 years spouting their "No Child Left Behind" crap.

If Democrats were in charge and spouting the same nonsense I'd be pointing the blame squarely on them.
 
Originally posted by: Genx87
I agree with the OP. There is no need for 5 principals in a single school.

You can blame the unions for forcing districts to promote or hire x amount of administration.

The union wins because a higher salary == more due money.

We had a district admin here in minneapolis in the Hopkins school district making about 200K a year with unlimited banking of hours for vacation. When he wants to retire he had enough in 2004 for about 800,000+ in buyout from vacation. Oh yeah and dont forget the leased vehicle at a tune of about 800 per month. Admins running around in escalades on the tax payers dollar sends a nice warm feeling into my heart knowing the money is being well spent.

Intersting, why would management be part of the union to begin with???
 
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Hey, Republicans have been in charge last 7 years spouting their "No Child Left Behind" crap.

If Democrats were in charge and spouting the same nonsense I'd be pointing the blame squarely on them.

That's true - No Child Left Behind is a mess. However, it's not like most liberals are much better - being liberal does not mean that you need to be a weenie. (Coincidentally, I feel that the Black Panthers had the right approach - you give kids food if they go to school, you create an image of worth and power for educated individuals, and you do not give respect to those that blow off school. Anyone who disagrees with me can take it up with Huey P. Newton.)

Originally posted by: Genx87
I agree with the OP. There is no need for 5 principals in a single school. You can blame the unions for forcing districts to promote or hire x amount of administration. The union wins because a higher salary == more due money.

I'm not so sure about that. From what I see, it's just beauracracy - officials are obligated to help those who got them in power, yadda yadda yadda et cetera. I'd be willing to bet that a teacher's union would be happy to hear that a principal's salary was being turned into the salaries for three new teachers.

Originally posted by: Genx87
We had a district admin here in minneapolis in the Hopkins school district making about 200K a year with unlimited banking of hours for vacation. When he wants to retire he had enough in 2004 for about 800,000+ in buyout from vacation. Oh yeah and dont forget the leased vehicle at a tune of about 800 per month. Admins running around in escalades on the tax payers dollar sends a nice warm feeling into my heart knowing the money is being well spent.

Where does he live? I want to bite his kneecaps.
 
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Hey, Republicans have been in charge last 7 years spouting their "No Child Left Behind" crap.

If Democrats were in charge and spouting the same nonsense I'd be pointing the blame squarely on them.

Who put the "Republicans" in charge? The PEOPLE. The education system has been crappy for years before Bush and the Republicans took power. But that does not matter. Education is not a Democrat/Republican issue. It is an issue that all of us must work together on and come up with a sensible solution to.

Stop making this a one party or the other issue. It is because of this nonsense that the education system in this country is crap. Each party is "my way or no one's way" on issues pertaining to education. No compromising ever takes place. Everyone in charge just listens to where the money is coming from and does not put the children's interest ahead of their own damn interests.
 
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: Brainonska511
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Cheesehead
I feel that this is an issue that everyone can agree on: Appropriate spending in schools.

First, as the son of a teacher, I can verify that they don't live high on the hog. Sure, they get benifits, insurance, et cetera, but that's only after they work at the same job for many, many years. To get said job, both college and grad school are required. The hours suck, too - most teachers spend several hours a night grading papers, and I can testify that of the five teachers in the physics department at my high school, not one slept more than 4-5 hours a night - and they routinely would show up at work even if they were at death's door.

So, if teachers are paid so poorly, why is all this money going down the tubes?

Administrators.

At a school of 2100 students, there are 5 principals and at least nine secretaries working at a given time.

That's 14 people, and assuming an average $60,000 a year salary after benifits (it's likely more - remember, these are principals!), that's almost eight hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year - for one school!

Sorry but that is the Republican way.

Oh and they feel Teachers should make same wage as other service staff $2.13hr.

Hmmm.....Democrats run most inner cities, which have absolutely horrible schools, yet somehow its the Republicans fault......

Why do you people need to make this a Democrat/Rebuplican issue? It is EVERYONE's fault. The teachers unions, the administrators, the state legislators that set this all up, the parents that see schools as day-care or just don't follow up on the quality of their children's education.

I completely understand that its everyones fault,

I just find it funny when people like Dave try and pin our failing educational system on Republicans, when its Democrats that have been in charge of the pit of our educational system, the inner cities.
Hey, Republicans have been in charge last 7 years spouting their "No Child Left Behind" crap.

If Democrats were in charge and spouting the same nonsense I'd be pointing the blame squarely on them.


Hellooooo.....anybody home? Inner city schools are in the crapper, Democrats run most cities, its really not hard to connect the two Dave.

Are you somehow implying that prior to the Republicans being in charge of the FEDERAL government that schools were in great shape? Do you realize that schooling is a LOCAL issue, not a FEDERAL issue? Did you know that in Maryland our former Republican Governor tried to help bail out the failing Baltimore city schools run by a Democratic mayor, but he refused?

Stop the partisan crap, the educational system is everyones problem, its because of people like you that nothing will get fixed.
 
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Genx87
I agree with the OP. There is no need for 5 principals in a single school.

You can blame the unions for forcing districts to promote or hire x amount of administration.

The union wins because a higher salary == more due money.

We had a district admin here in minneapolis in the Hopkins school district making about 200K a year with unlimited banking of hours for vacation. When he wants to retire he had enough in 2004 for about 800,000+ in buyout from vacation. Oh yeah and dont forget the leased vehicle at a tune of about 800 per month. Admins running around in escalades on the tax payers dollar sends a nice warm feeling into my heart knowing the money is being well spent.

Intersting, why would management be part of the union to begin with???

Good question. But in case anybody doubts administrators are included, check this LINK.

Fern
 
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Genx87
I agree with the OP. There is no need for 5 principals in a single school.

You can blame the unions for forcing districts to promote or hire x amount of administration.

The union wins because a higher salary == more due money.

We had a district admin here in minneapolis in the Hopkins school district making about 200K a year with unlimited banking of hours for vacation. When he wants to retire he had enough in 2004 for about 800,000+ in buyout from vacation. Oh yeah and dont forget the leased vehicle at a tune of about 800 per month. Admins running around in escalades on the tax payers dollar sends a nice warm feeling into my heart knowing the money is being well spent.

Intersting, why would management be part of the union to begin with???

Good question. But in case anybody doubts administrators are included, check this LINK.

Fern

'Round here, we have something like four unions - the whole school system is nuts.
 
If we started being a bit smarter about school spending, budget cuts would'nt be necessary.

How about, "If we started being a bit smarter about school spending, budget cuts would be easy." As a taxpayer, I'd almost rather burn the money that we spend on public schools now, the results would be better.
 
Originally posted by: glenn1
If we started being a bit smarter about school spending, budget cuts would'nt be necessary.

How about, "If we started being a bit smarter about school spending, budget cuts would be easy." As a taxpayer, I'd almost rather burn the money that we spend on public schools now, the results would be better.

Say what? I know a lot of dedicated teachers, and they do wonders for kids. It's not a perfect system, but with a little work, we can once again have the best schools in the world.

Part of the problem is stupid regulation; part of the problem is that they don't have money for some of the things they really need. Everyone's being lumped together, with pressure from both democrats and republicans to streamline everyone into a one-size-fits-all class - AP and remedial courses are now stigmatized.

If anyone here has read Farenheight 451, this should all seem eerily familiar.
 
There was an article in my local newspaper listing all the salaries of administrators and principals of all the elementary, middle, junior and high schools.

The principals at the elementary schools made at minimum $70k and the superintendant made nearly $200k.

The average salary of a teacher is around $30k or so. We have pretty steep property taxes in our area, alongside business sponserships and various organizations donate time and money to the school district.

In essence, I agree that the administators at many schools are like money sponges. For instance, the administration catering bill for the year was over $100k. That's a lot of free grub!!!

Schools principals and administrators need to focus a bit more on finding ways to trim budgets and pushing the savings to the teachers and better funding the classrooms.

Edit: Found the article I was referring to. It refers to school districts making salaries public, which I'm in favor of.

Salary Open-Air Policy
 
Back
Top