• We’re currently investigating an issue related to the forum theme and styling that is impacting page layout and visual formatting. The problem has been identified, and we are actively working on a resolution. There is no impact to user data or functionality, this is strictly a front-end display issue. We’ll post an update once the fix has been deployed. Thanks for your patience while we get this sorted.

My analysis of the Healthcare situation.

deputc26

Senior member
Obama?s plan for universal healthcare follows a premise that is difficult to argue with. Give vital medical care to anyone who needs it. This is an admirable goal and aims to meet a genuine need that nearly everyone can identify with.

To justify the institution of such an immense government program a lot of data has been collected and published: Cost of healthcare insurance has doubled in the last eight years and is forecast to continue its growth, half of all personal bankruptcies are the result of medical bills, most insurance plans have coverage caps leaving the ?insured? still highly vulnerable, twenty five percent of medical costs are administrative.

The spiraling cost of healthcare is certainly worrisome and certainly warrants government action, however, the future of the current government plan is looking less than certain.

To understand how we got here, (and to explain how I arrived at my current viewpoint) let?s rewind the clock to the 1920s. At this time we were just discovering that oxygen diffuses from lungs to blood, that insulin can help diabetics immensely and that a new product called the ?Band-Aid? genuinely helped the healing of scratches and scrapes. In 1921 the total cost of healthcare was estimated at 1.4 billion by the Public Health Service or $12.33 per person per year, translated into 2009 dollars (using Oregon State?s table of CPI conversion factors) this equates to about $16.7 billion and $147 respectively. For reference the population of America was around 107 million, literacy rates had reached 94% and life expectancy was 54 years for men and 55 years for women. Current (2009) figures put the population at around 310 million, literacy at 98% and life expectancy at 74 years for males and 80 years for females. The average American now lives about 23 years longer. The average American also spends over five thousand percent more on healthcare (after adjustment for inflation), or $7,900.00 per year (2008 figure). This places total healthcare spending at 2.4 trillion in 2008 or 17% of America?s GDP. Spending an extra $7,753.00 a year on healthcare, however, may seem like a reasonable price to pay for 23 extra years on this earth.

Comparison to other countries (in an effort to gauge room for improvement) is in some ways difficult and in some ways easy. Difficult, because the US is the only major industrialized nation that does not have universal healthcare, easy because despite different operational paradigms data from other major countries that is both relevant and directly equivalent to American metrics is available. America spends more on healthcare per capita than any other major nation. As previously mentioned, America spends 17% of its GDP on healthcare, for reference, Japan spends 8.2% Canada spends 10.6% Australia spends 8.8% and the UK spends 8.4%. All of these countries have higher life expectancies and lower infant mortality rates which are regarded as key indicators of systemic effectiveness by the World Health Organization (WHO). These numbers tell us that there is significant room for improvement in the American system, and that the current system can reasonably be regarded as broken.

Reliable data for Canada and Japan is not available for the whole timescale, Canada transitioned to universal healthcare between 1946 and 1966.

So what?s broken? Unfortunately the current state of our system is the result of widely accepted business practices interacting with well intentioned government policies, on a more fundamental level; it is the result of legal, but unethical business practices. The combination of ?cash is king? business, and government induced obstacles to competition, is proving to be disastrous
As documented by Terree P. Wasley in his remarkably prescient 1993 paper detailing (and extrapolating) the history of American medicine in the twentieth century, the rise of insurance gradually removed the usual incentives that businesses have to compete with each other on price and also removed the natural tendency of consumers (patients) to find the most cost effective option.
The competitive incentive for healthcare providers was removed by the cost-plus reimbursement structure of insurance companies. That is, the hospital was paid for its total costs for a given treatment and then paid a predetermined percentage on top of those costs. Eventually, money paid to the hospitals came almost exclusively through the insurers, this produced what Wasley describes as ?a perverse incentive for hospitals to increase costs? because increased costs meant increased profit due to the static relationship between costs and profits (profits: the ?plus? part of ?cost plus?). While the insurance companies paid the hospitals based on costs, they also calculated insurance premiums based on those costs. Because the consumer now paid costs monthly instead of up front, the relationship between accepting expensive treatment options, and increased premiums was blurred. Actions (expensive treatment) were divorced from reactions (increased premiums) muddying the waters of reason and contributing to the rise in costs.

An anomalous trend emerged in health insurance companies in the early 1990s when IT technology was taking the business world by storm and ?middle managers? were being replaced by software to cut administrative costs. While the administrative costs of most companies were falling, the costs of operating an insurance company mysteriously grew. The percentage of total medical costs that went to fund insurance providers increased from about 5% in 1993, to as much as 20% in 2005 according to the PricewaterhouseCoopers? Health Research Institute. The reasons for this increase could be attributed to: a rise in legal activity and associated costs, a rise in paperwork required due to increasing government requirements such as the Resource Based Relative Value Scale implementation in 1992 and HIPAA (which would be ironic) in 1996. More likely, however, is that the insurance companies were simply doing what all organisms naturally do when able, grow. Ideally an insurance company would be actively self-limiting and aggressively pursuing lower internal costs per customer to reduce the costs to the consumer; sound unrealistic? Of course it does, on top of their suppression of competition insurance companies by their very nature aid and abet the spiraling costs of healthcare by adding the cost of their operations to the cost of the service; they have little incentive to operate efficiently. Health Insurance companies were started during the great depression to make things fairer for patients, government intervention was supposed to make things fairer for the poor and the elderly. But as a country, is cradling a system that has lower effectiveness and double the price tag of equivalent systems really fair to anyone? In a complicated attempt to be fair to everyone, we have become fair to no one. Hello government.

While our current predicament developed slowly, the end result of a service with highly inelastic demand being insulated from competition is easily predictable. How did we fail to see this developing? Maybe it was a simple lack of recognition that the nature of man is not sufficiently noble to maintain integrity when there is no short-term tangible reward for doing the right thing and no legal consequence for doing the wrong thing, or maybe the scrutiny directed at the situation was insufficient to reveal that the conflict of interests existed. Whatever the case, it is now inconsequential, save for its value as a lesson in the history books. The important thing now is that the ?new? system eliminates the critical flaws described above.

Summary of Primary Problems:
1. Limited competition between healthcare providers leading to irresponsible cost control
2. Limited consumer ability/motivation to make cost effective choices
3. The additional cost leached by insurance companies from the consumer
The current mix of private practice with government programs and regulation has been tweaked many times to no avail, this system is fatally flawed. The two clearest, best alternatives would both involve extremely painful transitions. Let?s examine them.

1. Socialized healthcare: In what will almost certainly be viewed by many as ?oppressive? government action, the government could annex healthcare from the public realm, and reform it with salaries for medical workers and taxes instead of insurance. Essentially this would mirror the systems (to a degree) in other western nations.
ADVANTAGES: Problem 1 would be solved by separating the setters of prices from the beneficiaries of those prices. Problem 2 would remain but its importance would be greatly reduced by the fact that competition would cease being the intended driver of efficiency. Problem 3 could be eliminated, in such a system there would not be a need for insurance companies, though that does not preclude their existence. In summary, costs could be controlled provided the government maintained the will to control them; the system would have the additional advantage of ensuring that all Americans have access to healthcare.
DISADVANTAGES: Reduction in treatment options, large potential for governmental inefficiencies and special interest group influences to de-rail a streamlined system and bring us back to square one. This transition would likely be unacceptably painful. Assuming that we were able to create a system that is only as efficient as Canada?s we would still be eliminating more than a trillion dollars worth of jobs. This is ?desirable? from a long-term national standpoint but if you are one of those losing your job or getting a pay cut you probably wouldn?t agree. Legislating insurance companies out of existence would be fought tooth and nail but the loss of jobs and initial instability would almost CERTAINLY be outweighed by the long term benefits of a system that is sustainable (or at least significantly more sustainable). While the implementation of this system would flow with metaphorical blood it is important to conclude that the end result would ALMOST CERTAINLY BE BETTER THAN WHAT WE HAVE NOW.

2. True Free market: In a massive restructuring effort the healthcare industry could be transformed into a true free market. Doing this would require strict limits on the size of medical institutions and strong antitrust regulations, these limitations would be unique to the healthcare system because the inelasticity of demand and relative scarcity of large facilities creates greater potential for anticompetitive behavior. The system of medical insurance would have to be shifted back to its original (circa 1929) form. That is, insurance would have to be an integral part of the health care provider (not a separate entity) so that insurance becomes as much a subject of competitive pressure as every other part of the health care delivery system. Competition requires multiple players and this is why it is critical that healthcare institutions are prevented from collaborating on prices in any way. It would be natural for alliances to form between healthcare providers and if they do Problem 1 will put us back in square one, or close to it.
ADVANTAGES: The free market system has a higher potential for efficiency than any other system. Problems 1 and 2 would be addressed by opening the market back up to intense competition and eliminating the provider?s incentive to increase costs while increasing the consumer?s motivation to decrease costs. Problem 3 would be addressed by merging insurance with the healthcare entities, combining financial incentive and competitive pressure to lower the impact that the insurance silo has on the bottom line.
DISADVANTAGES: It is very possible that excessive competition could reduce the quality of healthcare and it is likely that levels of healthcare could come to parallel socio-economic lines, with the rich receiving outstanding care and the poor receiving none. It is also possible that limiting the size of healthcare providers could negatively impact research in the medical field. The transition to this system would be painful for the same reasons as the above socialized system. Insurance companies would have to be liquidated or drastically reshaped and the increased efficiency would create a massive system-wide contraction resulting in north of a trillion dollars in lost jobs (ironically the more efficient the new system is, the more catastrophic the initial contraction will be). Like the socialized system, implementation of this system would be painful, but again, it is important to conclude that the end result would ALMOST CERTAINLY BE BETTER THAN WHAT WE HAVE NOW.


Additional notes: It is easy to ask ?why can?t either of the above systems be built without the loss of job value?? the answer is simply that doing so would create the same base of inefficiency that is the current problem. Both of the above systems are capable of being even more wasteful than the current one, but they will not be unless we intentionally make them so or manage them in a grossly negligent fashion.

All the talk of cost pressures and healthcare brings up a very sticky issue. Is it ethical to bring anything but the absolute best to the hospital bed? Is it possible for saving a person?s life to be impractical? Is it worth a million dollars to save someone?s life? How about a billion dollars? How about a trillion dollars? Does your answer change if this money only buys the person one extra year? How about if it buys them only an extra day? Most will distance themselves from this train of thought by saying ?life is invaluable, its value can?t be described with numbers? which is true. But? The government must answer this question because the government does have access to a trillion dollars and there are situations that could potentially require if not a trillion still an unbelievable sum. Preventative healthcare could be taken to an incredibly costly level for everyone and it would have measurable benefits. The average person on this planet is on track to make about half a million over the course of their life which is not an uncommon figure in the world of healthcare? I will not put a number on the value of life but I do believe that currency has a moral component and that living a life with the sole goal of extending your life as long as possible is ignoble. Just like organizations, when a person?s primary mission becomes preserving themselves, the resulting narrowing of focus squeezes out room for the things that make life worth living, this is followed by a long, slow, decay culminating in death. So what level of self preservation is rational/natural and at what point does it become an inhibition to living life? This question will have to be answered eventually, likely in this century, because regardless of how healthcare is reformed, costs will inevitably grow as is happening in every industrialized nation on the planet.

The current plan (detailed in the 1000 page H.R. 3200 bill) involves creating a government health care system that will ?compete? with other providers. Opponents of the bill have accused it of being a ?Trojan horse?, a vehicle for government to ?competitively? acquire the industry. Honestly I hope that this is the case because if it is not, then the existing system will continue to sap our ability to compete on the international stage and the bill will likely become yet another example of failed government intervention. In its current form the bill has several disturbing facets. All of them involve an eerie degree of government control over the individual. I?ll stop short of picking at the details but the current plan can be broadly viewed as an attempt at hybridizing the socialized system with the current system which does not bode particularly well, it is possible however that the government does indeed intend this to be a Trojan horse, the gradual death of the government's competitors would be less shocking to the system than an outright socialization and would ameliorate the pain of transition described above (to a degree). Only time will tell, but the outlook for bill H.R. 3200 is looking dicey.

Sources:
H.R. 3200 http://www.capwiz.com/afanet/w.../query/z?c111:H.R.3200:
Canadian medical association http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/177/1/51/F118
NCHC http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml
UN Statistics Division http://data.un.org/
Wasley http://findarticles.com/p/arti...4930/?tag=content;col1
Kaiser Family Foundation http://www.kff.org/insurance/snapshot/chcm010307oth.cfm
The Case for Healthcare Reform http://www.whitehouse.gov/asse...Health_Care_Report.pdf
Igor Volsky http://wonkroom.thinkprogress....making-too-much-money/

edit: Changed "model" to "premise" to better represent my thoughts in the first paragraph.
 
Originally posted by: deputc26
Obama?s plan for universal healthcare follows a model that is difficult to argue with. Give vital medical care to anyone who needs it. This is an admirable goal and aims to meet a genuine need that nearly everyone can identify with.

I do disagree with your premise. We live in a world with infinite needs and scarce resources. Why should "vital medical care for anyone who needs it" in the United States take precedence over say, feeding the starving in Africa? Or trying to prevent genocide in Darfur? When you use the brute force of government to pursue goals like universal healthcare, you're taking away some of the means of private individuals to address the problems that are important to *them* on the questionable assumption that universal healthcare (or whatever other program) is the highest, best use for that money.
 
Also, while most of your post is very concise and well thought out, I do believe you need to define this so called assumption of "give VITAL medical care to anyone who needs it." Because in a way we already do - the ER. I understand you probably are referring to a working healthcare system. I just believe you need to clarify.

Also, one must consider would this really give it to all who need it? And Without partisan FUD, what happens if rationing takes effect?
 
Originally posted by: Liberator21
Also, one must consider would this really give it to all who need it? And Without partisan FUD, what happens if rationing takes effect?

Rationing can be a good thing.

For example, one of the best treatments of diabetes is simply to lose 10% of your bodyweight and keep it off. When a physician advocates this over metformin (a common diabetes drug to control blood sugar), is this not the definition of rationing? The real problem is that the concept of rationing is taken out of context and attacked, much like the "death panels" were last week.

Rationing is bad when you deny or delay the best/only treatment for a disease. Vitamins and minerals are not going to substitute for a liver transplant.
 
Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
Rationing can be a good thing.

For example, one of the best treatments of diabetes is simply to lose 10% of your bodyweight and keep it off. When a physician advocates this over metformin (a common diabetes drug to control blood sugar), is this not the definition of rationing? The real problem is that the concept of rationing is taken out of context and attacked, much like the "death panels" were last week.
You should run for office. That's a tremendous spin you've put on rationing. I'm not buying it, but it will certainly appeal to many weak minds. :roll:
 
Perhaps the problem in the US is that the federal government is too involved in this new healthcare proposal.

Here in Canada, healthcare is entirely under the jurisdiction of the provinces, not the federal government.

Nice post, deputc26. :beer:
 
Holy wall of text batman. It didn't take very long to see that this article is heavily slanted and biased towards government healthcare.

To justify the institution of such an immense government program a lot of data has been collected and published: Cost of healthcare insurance has doubled in the last eight years and is forecast to continue its growth

Flawed logic FTL. There's lots of discussion about moving the cost around, which is to say, who's going to pay for things and who's going to run things. The REAL discussion -- and the only one that will have long term benefits is how to actually help control the costs without lowering standards of care and without sacrificing individual choice. Adding more people to the system, and adding a giant wasteful government into the mix does nothing to fix anything.
 
Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
Originally posted by: Liberator21
Also, one must consider would this really give it to all who need it? And Without partisan FUD, what happens if rationing takes effect?

Rationing can be a good thing.

For example, one of the best treatments of diabetes is simply to lose 10% of your bodyweight and keep it off. When a physician advocates this over metformin (a common diabetes drug to control blood sugar), is this not the definition of rationing? The real problem is that the concept of rationing is taken out of context and attacked, much like the "death panels" were last week.

Rationing is bad when you deny or delay the best/only treatment for a disease. Vitamins and minerals are not going to substitute for a liver transplant.

Would curbing alcohol abuse substitute for a liver transplant? LOL! Get your shit together man!
 
@Glenn, it is difficult to argue with a person who is dieing of a curable condition, "We live in a world with infinite needs and scarce resources" well said, but this is an American solution, my intent was to analyze america as a closed system. I fully agree that places like the Methari slums are more deserving of aid than any demographic in america.
@Liberator, you are right; "vital" is poorly defined, and that whole sentence is somewhat vague. I intended to describe anything that would lead to a permanent or semipermanent(6mos+) decrease in ability to perform everyday tasks... actually this definition also requires further clarification and I don'y feel like devoting the time required to pin it down.
@Double trouble, your reply is defensive; I personally would choose option 2 (true free market) given the choice. Perhaps in an attempt to present the information in a non-partisan form I went too far in battling my personal distaste for big government.

In regards to rationing: A degree of rationing MUST take place to quote Glenn "We live in a world with infinite needs and scarce resources", the question is what type of rationing should occur, should it be based on the resources of the individual or of the government?
 
Originally posted by: Liberator21
Also, while most of your post is very concise and well thought out, I do believe you need to define this so called assumption of "give VITAL medical care to anyone who needs it." Because in a way we already do - the ER. I understand you probably are referring to a working healthcare system. I just believe you need to clarify.

Also, one must consider would this really give it to all who need it? And Without partisan FUD, what happens if rationing takes effect?

The ER costs 10x what going to a normal doctor would cost.

If people go there to get "free" treatment (no insurance), but it is really routine stuff, it magnifies the cost that is passed on to the rest of us.
 
Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
Originally posted by: Liberator21
Also, one must consider would this really give it to all who need it? And Without partisan FUD, what happens if rationing takes effect?

Rationing can be a good thing.

For example, one of the best treatments of diabetes is simply to lose 10% of your bodyweight and keep it off. When a physician advocates this over metformin (a common diabetes drug to control blood sugar), is this not the definition of rationing? The real problem is that the concept of rationing is taken out of context and attacked, much like the "death panels" were last week.

Rationing is bad when you deny or delay the best/only treatment for a disease. Vitamins and minerals are not going to substitute for a liver transplant.

Ok, how about this situation. My wife is insulin resistant. She has a condition called PCOS. My wife doesn't fit the normal description of a PCOS person. My wife is 5'3" and weighs 105lbs. So from a weight perspective, she is very healthy.

We did not know she had PCOS until we tried to have children. It took about 2 years for her to finally get pregnant due to her PCOS.

So what does this have to do with your post. PCOS is typical in people who has some insulin resistance. What is one of the methods for getting a person with PCOS pregnant? They give them metformin.

There are no real formal studies nor is metformin directly considered a treatment for PCOS. Doctors just know that women with PCOS have success getting pregnant when they go on metformin. Btw, my wife HATED being on metformin

As our insurance works now, as long as a doctor prescribes the medicine then it isn't an issue. However, if we start rationing, I guarantee that any medication that isn't explicitly for a condition will no longer be available. It would have most likely meant, my wife and I wouldn't have been able to have children if rationing occurs.

I am not trying to spread FUD but I am sorry, if we are talking about making a BETTER system, then we don't need to cause harm to people that are currently taken care of in the current system.
 
Originally posted by: ebaycj
Originally posted by: Liberator21
Also, while most of your post is very concise and well thought out, I do believe you need to define this so called assumption of "give VITAL medical care to anyone who needs it." Because in a way we already do - the ER. I understand you probably are referring to a working healthcare system. I just believe you need to clarify.

Also, one must consider would this really give it to all who need it? And Without partisan FUD, what happens if rationing takes effect?

The ER costs 10x what going to a normal doctor would cost.

If people go there to get "free" treatment (no insurance), but it is really routine stuff, it magnifies the cost that is passed on to the rest of us.

Well, we're talking about VITAL care here, right? That makes me think of people who just broke a leg and are more than likely not going to wait around to visit the normal doctor.
 
Well, the op point out one thing that no one want to talk about. While insurance have a hand in playing of making the health care cost higher, it is the "people" who no longer shop around, "doctors and hospital" who charge more and order more pointless test and they got comission for ordering test, which the insurance company have to increase price due to the increased usage. How come no want want to look at this angle?
 
I keep reading the comparison of US health care with other countries. I have never seen anyone talk about these numbers.

1. Whats the population of US as compared to UK, Canada, Australia, japan, etc. - as the number of people increase so does increase any and all overheads of providing any public facilities.

2. What % of people living in their country are illegal immigrants?

3. What % of people living in their country make below taxable income? Whats % of tax is contributed by the bottom 50% of their population.

4. What is their percent of national debt compared to their GDP? Every American has about $30K and counting...

5. Does any one have any data about the quality of health care that the people living in the ghettos of those countries get? Do they have to wait longer? are their enough docs? do they have to travel for hours to reach a proper medical facility?

6. People in USA die coz the insurance companies deny coverage for file saving procedures - People in UK and Canada die waiting in line for those procedures. Does anyone have numbers/percentage?
 
Originally posted by: Liberator21
And Without partisan FUD, what happens if rationing takes effect?

There is already more rationing going on in the US than in other industrialized countries. However, our rationing is performed by insurance companies with the aim of maximizing profits (regardless of health outcomes) and their rationing is performed by medical boards with the aim of getting care to those in most need. sure, some elective surgeries will have long wait times in Canada, but is that the end of the world?
 
Originally posted by: boomerang
Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
Rationing can be a good thing.

For example, one of the best treatments of diabetes is simply to lose 10% of your bodyweight and keep it off. When a physician advocates this over metformin (a common diabetes drug to control blood sugar), is this not the definition of rationing? The real problem is that the concept of rationing is taken out of context and attacked, much like the "death panels" were last week.
You should run for office. That's a tremendous spin you've put on rationing. I'm not buying it, but it will certainly appeal to many weak minds. :roll:

You nitwit, you're going to have some form of rationing no matter what type of healthcare model you go with (whether free market or socialized or anything in between). The difference is GOOD rationing and BAD rationing. Right now we have the WORST rationing. There's a new type of robot out there (with a cost of 1.5 million) that assists in certain types of surgeries. It takes 9 months for a surgeon to learn how to use. Patients are demanding use of it. There's no actual proof that the robotic surgery is anymore efficacious than manual surgery. The FDA approved the robot without doing a cost/benefit analysis. Other countries with UHC do cost benefit analysis before approving drugs and treatments. We have 50 million uninsured and pay double in medical costs than what other countries do. THERE'S your rationing.
 
Originally posted by: Phokus
You nitwit,
You lost me right there. One single word and you lost me. Everything you typed after that became meaningless.

But to be honest, I would have more than likely ignored your post anyway.

In the off chance that you're still with me, tell me who said this and when.

Millions of Americans are just a pink slip away from losing their health insurance, and one serious illness away from losing all their savings. Millions more are locked into the jobs they have now just because they or someone in their family has once been sick and they have what is called the preexisting condition. And on any given day, over 37 million Americans?most of them working people and their little children?have no health insurance at all. And in spite of all this, our medical bills are growing at over twice the rate of inflation, and the United States spends over a third more of its income on health care than any other nation on Earth.

Aw, I'll make it easy for you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C...alth_care_plan_of_1993

The party you worship so very much with your youthful exuberance predicted dire results 16 years ago if UHC wasn't passed. They were in as big a hurry then as they are today. They were the architects of it's demise then just as they are the architects now.

Then as now, the drafting of the legislation was thrust upon the far left. People with ideals so far from the mainstream that it's demise was ensured. Nothing learned in 16 years. It's sad.

A political party that thinks the means to their end is to call the electorate names (sound familiar?), to belittle and berate them, call their efforts AstroTurf, call them Nazi's, create an email address to snitch on them just to mention a few. To publicly decry insurance companies and Doctors as evil. To alienate the very people and businesses they need to ensure both passage and success of what they hope to achieve. What results do they expect other than what they've gotten?

One would hope that politicians would be smarter than this.


 
Originally posted by: DesiPower
I keep reading the comparison of US health care with other countries. I have never seen anyone talk about these numbers.

1. Whats the population of US as compared to UK, Canada, Australia, japan, etc. - as the number of people increase so does increase any and all overheads of providing any public facilities.

2. What % of people living in their country are illegal immigrants?

3. What % of people living in their country make below taxable income? Whats % of tax is contributed by the bottom 50% of their population.

4. What is their percent of national debt compared to their GDP? Every American has about $30K and counting...

5. Does any one have any data about the quality of health care that the people living in the ghettos of those countries get? Do they have to wait longer? are their enough docs? do they have to travel for hours to reach a proper medical facility?

6. People in USA die coz the insurance companies deny coverage for file saving procedures - People in UK and Canada die waiting in line for those procedures. Does anyone have numbers/percentage?

1. US has ~310 million, UK has 61 million, Canada has ~33 million, Australia has ~21 Million, Japan has ~127 million. Population does not appear to correlate to the percent GDP spent on healthcare though in the case of Japan it is possible that cultural factors are affecting the numbers.
2. Don't have data but I think we can all agree that the US has the most by far. They are not provided with healthcare by Canada and I am not sure but I doubt they get it in other countries as well.
3. The second part of this is difficult to find data on, for the first part. US ~12%; UK ~6%; Canada 0%: Australia ~11%; Japan 0%
4. US: $38k UK:$21.6k Canada:$13.3k Australia:$94k Japan: $57k
5. Health care "in the ghettos" being a problem is an American phenomenon, though I have met people in Canada who religiously avoid hospitals for kooky reasons.
6. I lived in Canada for 18 years and I've never heard of anyone dieing while waiting for surgery, the waits are for elective surgeries which is still a problem, but not as critical.

Boomerang and Phokus please be respectful when posting. It is this exact defensive stance which causes debates to devolve into an attempt to prove how dumb the opponent is instead of discover what the best solution is.
 
Originally posted by: deputc26
I lived in Canada for 18 years and I've never heard of anyone dieing while waiting for surgery, the waits are for elective surgeries which is still a problem, but not as critical.

Shirley you are wrong.

The Quirks say Canucks die everyday waiting for surgery so they have to be right.

How dare you post facts BTW.
 
Originally posted by: glenn1
Originally posted by: deputc26
Obama?s plan for universal healthcare follows a model that is difficult to argue with. Give vital medical care to anyone who needs it. This is an admirable goal and aims to meet a genuine need that nearly everyone can identify with.

I do disagree with your premise. We live in a world with infinite needs and scarce resources. Why should "vital medical care for anyone who needs it" in the United States take precedence over say, feeding the starving in Africa? Or trying to prevent genocide in Darfur? When you use the brute force of government to pursue goals like universal healthcare, you're taking away some of the means of private individuals to address the problems that are important to *them* on the questionable assumption that universal healthcare (or whatever other program) is the highest, best use for that money.

They take our money for political wars.. why not use the money for good for once?
 
Originally posted by: Codewiz
Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
Originally posted by: Liberator21
Also, one must consider would this really give it to all who need it? And Without partisan FUD, what happens if rationing takes effect?

Rationing can be a good thing.

For example, one of the best treatments of diabetes is simply to lose 10% of your bodyweight and keep it off. When a physician advocates this over metformin (a common diabetes drug to control blood sugar), is this not the definition of rationing? The real problem is that the concept of rationing is taken out of context and attacked, much like the "death panels" were last week.

Rationing is bad when you deny or delay the best/only treatment for a disease. Vitamins and minerals are not going to substitute for a liver transplant.

Ok, how about this situation. My wife is insulin resistant. She has a condition called PCOS. My wife doesn't fit the normal description of a PCOS person. My wife is 5'3" and weighs 105lbs. So from a weight perspective, she is very healthy.

We did not know she had PCOS until we tried to have children. It took about 2 years for her to finally get pregnant due to her PCOS.

So what does this have to do with your post. PCOS is typical in people who has some insulin resistance. What is one of the methods for getting a person with PCOS pregnant? They give them metformin.

There are no real formal studies nor is metformin directly considered a treatment for PCOS. Doctors just know that women with PCOS have success getting pregnant when they go on metformin. Btw, my wife HATED being on metformin

As our insurance works now, as long as a doctor prescribes the medicine then it isn't an issue. However, if we start rationing, I guarantee that any medication that isn't explicitly for a condition will no longer be available. It would have most likely meant, my wife and I wouldn't have been able to have children if rationing occurs.

I am not trying to spread FUD but I am sorry, if we are talking about making a BETTER system, then we don't need to cause harm to people that are currently taken care of in the current system.

My wife is 26, 5'8 and weighs 130 pounds and was diagnosed with PCOS. She needed to take the pill for one month and got pregnant. She weighs less now than ever. Last year she was denied health insurance by EVERY CARRIER IN OUR STATE.

See a problem here?
 
Originally posted by: boomerang
Originally posted by: Phokus
You nitwit,
You lost me right there. One single word and you lost me. Everything you typed after that became meaningless.

But to be honest, I would have more than likely ignored your post anyway.

In the off chance that you're still with me, tell me who said this and when.

Millions of Americans are just a pink slip away from losing their health insurance, and one serious illness away from losing all their savings. Millions more are locked into the jobs they have now just because they or someone in their family has once been sick and they have what is called the preexisting condition. And on any given day, over 37 million Americans?most of them working people and their little children?have no health insurance at all. And in spite of all this, our medical bills are growing at over twice the rate of inflation, and the United States spends over a third more of its income on health care than any other nation on Earth.

Aw, I'll make it easy for you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C...alth_care_plan_of_1993

The party you worship so very much with your youthful exuberance predicted dire results 16 years ago if UHC wasn't passed. They were in as big a hurry then as they are today. They were the architects of it's demise then just as they are the architects now.

Then as now, the drafting of the legislation was thrust upon the far left. People with ideals so far from the mainstream that it's demise was ensured. Nothing learned in 16 years. It's sad.

A political party that thinks the means to their end is to call the electorate names (sound familiar?), to belittle and berate them, call their efforts AstroTurf, call them Nazi's, create an email address to snitch on them just to mention a few. To publicly decry insurance companies and Doctors as evil. To alienate the very people and businesses they need to ensure both passage and success of what they hope to achieve. What results do they expect other than what they've gotten?

One would hope that politicians would be smarter than this.

"To publicly decry insurance companies as evil"

Health insurance in this country is evil. Denying and canceling coverage to maximize profits is the very definition of evil.

My doctor father who is a diehard republican who hates obama was ranting to me this morning about how health insurance companies shouldn't exist and should be eliminated.

And the republicans killed it years ago with the same misinformation and prey on fear campaign that they use for pretty much everything nowadays.

They got a ton on concessions on the bill and have given none in return and do not intend to.
 
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: boomerang
Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
Rationing can be a good thing.

For example, one of the best treatments of diabetes is simply to lose 10% of your bodyweight and keep it off. When a physician advocates this over metformin (a common diabetes drug to control blood sugar), is this not the definition of rationing? The real problem is that the concept of rationing is taken out of context and attacked, much like the "death panels" were last week.
You should run for office. That's a tremendous spin you've put on rationing. I'm not buying it, but it will certainly appeal to many weak minds. :roll:

You nitwit, you're going to have some form of rationing no matter what type of healthcare model you go with (whether free market or socialized or anything in between). The difference is GOOD rationing and BAD rationing. Right now we have the WORST rationing. There's a new type of robot out there (with a cost of 1.5 million) that assists in certain types of surgeries. It takes 9 months for a surgeon to learn how to use. Patients are demanding use of it. There's no actual proof that the robotic surgery is anymore efficacious than manual surgery. The FDA approved the robot without doing a cost/benefit analysis. Other countries with UHC do cost benefit analysis before approving drugs and treatments. We have 50 million uninsured and pay double in medical costs than what other countries do. THERE'S your rationing.

Wow, way to over-react. To specify, I'm talking about healthcare rationing that involves more patients, same amount of doctors - which seems like even routine visits and operations will need to be rationed.. I'm trying to remain non-partisan, but your numbers are very misleading.

For example, this 50 million you claim of, actually its 46 million. 10 million of those are not U.S. citizens (i.e. Illegal), another 17 million actually make over $50,000 a year but elect not to purchase insurance. And finally, 4-7 million are between the ages of 18-30 which seem to have a "superman" complex and think they do not need insurance when in actuality they could afford it.

Anyhow, I won't disagree that the INSURANCE system is all messed up. We do need reform there. However, the overused cliche "Why throw the baby out with the bath water?" applies here. Tinkering, not a complete abolition is what is needed here, and I'm glad more and more people are realizing this.
 
Originally posted by: Liberator21
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: boomerang
Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
Rationing can be a good thing.

For example, one of the best treatments of diabetes is simply to lose 10% of your bodyweight and keep it off. When a physician advocates this over metformin (a common diabetes drug to control blood sugar), is this not the definition of rationing? The real problem is that the concept of rationing is taken out of context and attacked, much like the "death panels" were last week.
You should run for office. That's a tremendous spin you've put on rationing. I'm not buying it, but it will certainly appeal to many weak minds. :roll:

You nitwit, you're going to have some form of rationing no matter what type of healthcare model you go with (whether free market or socialized or anything in between). The difference is GOOD rationing and BAD rationing. Right now we have the WORST rationing. There's a new type of robot out there (with a cost of 1.5 million) that assists in certain types of surgeries. It takes 9 months for a surgeon to learn how to use. Patients are demanding use of it. There's no actual proof that the robotic surgery is anymore efficacious than manual surgery. The FDA approved the robot without doing a cost/benefit analysis. Other countries with UHC do cost benefit analysis before approving drugs and treatments. We have 50 million uninsured and pay double in medical costs than what other countries do. THERE'S your rationing.

Wow, way to over-react. To specify, I'm talking about healthcare rationing that involves more patients, same amount of doctors - which seems like even routine visits and operations will need to be rationed.. I'm trying to remain non-partisan, but your numbers are very misleading.

For example, this 50 million you claim of, actually its 46 million. 10 million of those are not U.S. citizens (i.e. Illegal), another 17 million actually make over $50,000 a year but elect not to purchase insurance. And finally, 4-7 million are between the ages of 18-30 which seem to have a "superman" complex and think they do not need insurance when in actuality they could afford it.

Anyhow, I won't disagree that the INSURANCE system is all messed up. We do need reform there. However, the overused cliche "Why throw the baby out with the bath water?" applies here. Tinkering, not a complete abolition is what is needed here, and I'm glad more and more people are realizing this.


The numbers aren't misleading. It is a fact that 46 million that live here are uninsured. Why should they mean less?

We already pay premium for illegals-hospital ERs!... so those numbers still count. You rather pay ER fees than coverage?

Some "elect" not to have insurance.. does that count those denied by every carrier in the state or refuse/cannot afford to pay 15k a year for their family? Or maybe they would just be exempted with "pre-existing conditions" for everything under the sun? Why should those be discounted?

Then you try to trivialize younger people by making something up to justify why they don't have insurance. Again, how many young people could afford 15k a year for their families? Denied the coverage they need for pre-existing conditions, maybe? What argument can beat making up assumptions to trivialize a few million people that have no care?

The fact remains that 46 million are uninsured and we STILL pay double all other countries that cover everyone... Plus we are denied coverage all the time, even when we HAVE insurance!

Meanwhile the health insurance companies have had their profits go up 1000% over the last 5 years while covering less people.

Tinkering is needed for a for profit system designed around making profit by denying care? Really? That's pretty amazing... just tinker here and there and we could remove the profit incentive for denying care and coverage! Brilliant!

More and more people aren't realizing this... Less people are covered than ever and insurances deny coverage more than ever. People will remain ignorant, as always.. but as more and more become uninsured or uninsurable or are denied or have family that are denied.. the more prices for insurance goes up... the more people will suddenly grow a brain.

Isn't it funny how a huge portion of the "protestors" are on medicare!?!?

A vocal and ignorant minority means nothing. "Keep your government out of my Medicare!"
 
Back
Top