My 7800GT vs X800XL Gaming Comparison (26 games benchmarked!)

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BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
3,003
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It is you thats has done the tune changing

From a faulty crash prone nV40 to faulty drivers to nForce3. I've had to force the real problem out of you over many posts.
Excuse me? Are you reading the same thread I am? You didn't "force" anything out of me. nVidia's drivers are the cause of the problem and that's a fact.

It's not a faulty NF3.
It's not a faulty card.

You are simply twisting my comments into more strawman arguments. I never said or implied the GPU or the motherboard was faulty. It's nVidia's drivers. Is that clear enough for you?

Out of all that, the issue *clearly* rests with nForce3.
Two Radeon cards running ATi drivers in a very stable state vehemently disagaree.

I really couldn't care less about DEP. I certainly haven't needed it to run a secure and reliable machine for upwards of 3 years.
This has what to do with the core issue of nVidia's poor driver programming?

This has what to do with your comment "Microsoft's incompetence" not only being unfounded but also grossly inaccurate?

The Radeons are irrelevant to the discussion because their drivers interact with the nForce3 chipset differently to nVidia's drivers.
Yes, they do interact differently. From an engineering standpoint they are more stable and more compatible than nVidia's drivers.

It's just like in the TnT Vs AGP Voodoo days, the Voodoo's treated AGP llike an overgrown PCI slot, so were largely unaffected by AGP drivers bugs rampant at the time.
This would be a good example if it applied in this case but it doesn't. ATi's drivers not only have a full AGP implementation but SmartGART can detect problems with the chipset and disable AGP functions that aren't working properly (it never disabled any for me I might add).

nVidia on the other hand made full use of the interface and is/was far more sensitive to any shortcomings chipset wise or driver wise that may be present.
The problem here is nVidia's aggressive optimizations. They attempt to win benchmarks at any cost including stability.
 

Gstanfor

Banned
Oct 19, 1999
3,307
0
0
Excuse me? Are you reading the same thread I am? You didn't "force" anything out of me. nVidia's drivers are the cause of the problem and that's a fact.

It's not a faulty NF3.
It's not a faulty card.

You are simply twisting my comments into more strawman arguments. I never said or implied the GPU or the motherboard was faulty. It's nVidia's drivers. Is that clear enough for you?
No, it is NOT nVIDIA's drivers, or else EVERYBODY who owns a nV40 and an nForce3 would have the same issue you do/did. They don't. Is that clear enought you you?

quote:

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nVidia on the other hand made full use of the interface and is/was far more sensitive to any shortcomings chipset wise or driver wise that may be present.
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The problem here is nVidia's aggressive optimizations. They attempt to win benchmarks at any cost including stability.
Rubbish! a quick glance at the historical release notes for ALi & Via's AGP GART drivers proves that ridiculous argument well and truly wrong.
 

GOREGRINDER

Senior member
Oct 31, 2005
382
0
0
hey bfg10k,.. i enjoyed your benches and the read N1 :thumbsup: good stuff, i hope your enjoying the card

although im still trying to figure out why this guy just insulted you from out of nowhere and is riding your ass like this,... kinda odd..lol

 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
3,003
126
No, it is NOT nVIDIA's drivers, or else EVERYBODY who owns a nV40 and an nForce3 would have the same issue you do/did.
This is a non-sequitur argument. Let me illustrate why by changing a single word:

"No, it is NOT nForce3, or else EVERYBODY who owns a nV40 and an nForce3 would have the same issue you do/did".

You see, I too can post statements that fail even basic logic tests like you can.

The fact that NF3 isn't unstable with ATi - a vendor with full AGP support - lends support to the theory that nVidia's drivers are at fault, not NF3. Again this is basic logic and reasoning, something you have serious problems grasping.

Rubbish! a quick glance at the historical release notes for ALi & Via's AGP GART drivers proves that ridiculous argument well and truly wrong.
Reading ALi and Via has what to do with nForce3? Stop trying to draw in irrelevant tangents because you can't produce plausible reasoning to back your claims.

If ATi is unstable on ALi and Via like nVidia then so be it; it obviously means it's a problem with the board, not with the GPU drivers. But this scenario has nothing at all to do with NF3 because ATi is stable on said platform.
 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
3,003
126
hey bfg10k,.. i enjoyed your benches and the read
Thanks, glad to hear it. :)

although im still trying to figure out why this guy just insulted you from out of nowhere and is riding your ass like this,... kinda odd..lol
He's doing it because he's a rabid nVidia fanboi troll and he can't stand that fact that he's losing the argument miserably, as usual.

He's been asked repeatedly to leave the thread and let intelligent debate resume but he obviously can't control himself.
 

Gstanfor

Banned
Oct 19, 1999
3,307
0
0
"No, it is NOT nForce3, or else EVERYBODY who owns a nV40 and an nForce3 would have the same issue you do/did".

Yours line doesn't even make sense.

For the last time (I've tried to help you here, but you just don't want to be helped), if nVIdia's drivers caused your problems then everyone with an nforce3 and an nv40 would have suffered crashes and instability like you. Not only that, but the problem would not be limited to nForce3 but affect all AGP owners regardless of chipset. Neither statement is true. nV40 works perfectly in everything but nForce3, and not all nForce3 owners experience your troubles. Either RMA the board or replace it with a one utilizing a different chipset. If you don't want to do that, the solution most affected people use to alleviate the problem is disable AGP FW and revert to AGP 4x.

Reading ALi and Via has what to do with nForce3?
Was in response to your taking "nVidia on the other hand made full use of the interface and is/was far more sensitive to any shortcomings chipset wise or driver wise that may be present. " out of context and launching into an unrelated optimization rant (talk about people going off on a tangent...)
I can assure you that back in the TNT/GF1/2 days, nVidia driver optimizations had nothing whatsoever to do with AGP compatability problems, and they don't have anything to do with your nForce3 problems.

Now quit trying to blame nV40 and its drivers for what is an nForce3 problem! If you want my honest opinion, get rid of the nForce3 - it is easily the worst motherboard platform nVidia has ever produced, even VIA managed to do better. How nVidia managed to stuff their perfect in nForce2 AGP support up in nForce3 I'll never know. What I do know is that I would not use nForce3 in my system or client systems.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Nice job BFG.


Classy speak for yourself - most people here game at 16x10 or better just by sheer popularity of monitors like the Dell 2005.
 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
3,003
126
Yours line doesn't even make sense.
No sh!t Sherlock, and that would be because it happens to follow the same format of your statement.

For the last time (I've tried to help you here, but you just don't want to be helped),
Take your "help" and stick it where the sun don't shine. I certainly didn't ask for your "help" and neither did this thread, yet you still can't keep away for some reason.

if nVIdia's drivers caused your problems then everyone with an nforce3 and an nv40 would have suffered crashes and instability like you.
This is beyond a joke now. Are you really this dense when it comes to rational reasoning or do you just enjoy blatantly trolling?

If NF3 was the problem then all NF3 owners - regardless of what true AGP GPU they used - would've suffered crashes and instabillity.

That didn't happen.

We know this because my own board which you claim was faulty did not have an issue with ATi cards, cards which fully supported the AGP spec and all associated features.

Not only that, but the problem would not be limited to nForce3 but affect all AGP owners regardless of chipset.
It could well have been but I didn't really pay attention to other motherboard chipsets at the time. In any case we certainly know DEP was an issue on non-NF3 platforms. Oh wait, that's a Microsoft problem, right? :roll:

Just like the dual core driver issues that are stated in nVidia's driver readme. You can't blame NF3 on those so who are you going to blame there? Microsoft again? Or perhaps Intel/AMD?

nV40 works perfectly in everything but nForce3,
Not for DEP it didn't. At least not until they fixed the problem six months after introducing it.

and not all nForce3 owners experience your troubles.
So?

Either RMA the board or replace it with a one utilizing a different chipset.
How exactly do you expect I'm running PCIe video cards in an AGP NF3 board, Sherlock?

If you don't want to do that, the solution most affected people use to alleviate the problem is disable AGP FW and revert to AGP 4x.
You think I didn't try this, among many other things? The only real solution was to install a Radeon in there and then it worked perfectly, aside from the few driver versions that had known issues with CoD and CFS3 which were later fixed.

There's nothing faulty about NF3, it's nVidia's drivers, no doubt left-over crap from the FX days when they busted their balls to raise performance at any cost.

Was in response to your taking "nVidia on the other hand made full use of the interface and is/was far more sensitive to any shortcomings chipset wise or driver wise that may be present. " out of context and launching into an unrelated optimization rant (talk about people going off on a tangent...)
There's nothing unrelated about it. You don't introduce those kinds of problems unless you're desperately trying to make up for something else (such as performance).

But then I'd wager you've already rewritten history to state that the FX line never had problems with shaders at all, it was just a giant conspiracy theory. Hence I expect my comments are lost on you.

I can assure you that back in the TNT/GF1/2 days, nVidia driver optimizations had nothing whatsoever to do with AGP compatability problems,
Sure but then I can also assure you that other genuine AGP cards like the Radeon would've also had problems with faulty AGP boards, unlike the NF3 situation here.

Now quit trying to blame nV40 and its drivers for what is an nForce3 problem!
It's not an NF3 problem because ATi's fully AGP implemented drivers work fine on the platform. SmartGART didn't even deem it necessary to disable problematic features like Fast Writes because it felt the board was stable enough to use them. And it was.

If you want my honest opinion, get rid of the nForce3 - it is easily the worst motherboard platform nVidia has ever produced, even VIA managed to do better.
Perhaps it was the worst but it doesn't change the fact that only the 6800U was unstable with it but two different Radeon cards - both of which fully supported AGP features - were not.
 

Gstanfor

Banned
Oct 19, 1999
3,307
0
0
One last time.

Everyone knows the problem only occurs between nForce3 & nV40, that was never disputed by me. You are the one dragging ATi into the argument not me. I am saying nForce3 is the guilty party of the two not the nV40 since you require nForce3 for the problem to present itself in the first place, as I've stated multiple times the nV40 works flawlessly with other chipsets.

I don't care about your DEP issue - turn the crap off and wait for both the underpinning technology to mature and for proper OS support.

As for the dual core "problem" I've already pointed out M$'s interim solution. It's yet another case of waiting for proper OS support, not relying on bolt-ons for existing OS's

quote:

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and not all nForce3 owners experience your troubles.
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So?
So, genius, it means you have a faulty nForce3. IIRC, the nForce3 chipset went through several revisions where lots of issues were sorted (hypertransport bandwidth etc).

How exactly do you expect I'm running PCIe video cards in an AGP NF3 board, Sherlock?
I was assuming you still have the board in a spare system somewhere and presumably also the nV40. If you for some reason *want* to use nForce3 with PCI-e that's possible if you purchase the Epox motherboard that features SLi PCI-e on nForce3...

But then I'd wager you've already rewritten history to state that the FX line never had problems with shaders at all, it was just a giant conspiracy theory. Hence I expect my comments are lost on you.
Well, nV3x *doesn't* have shader problems! At least not shader problems that aren't performance related... But thats a whole different topic.

You love bringing up SmartGART don't you? I'd advise you to look into its history before crowing too loud about how perfect it is - it had its problems too and needed fixing...

I certainly didn't ask for your "help" and neither did this thread, yet you still can't keep away for some reason.
Typical little boy - can't take the very same "medicine" you are only too happy to dish out to others...

And just between you and me, I know why you prefer the BFG10K - you couldn't hit the broad side of a barn at 10 paces with anything smaller...
 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
3,003
126
One last time.
We can hope and pray but sadly I doubt that's the case.

Everyone knows the problem only occurs between nForce3 & nV40, that was never disputed by me.
What was disputed was that the Radeon has no problems and therefore this makes NF3 less likely to be the culprit. Furthermore even without the NF3 to use as an excuse you're still managing to deflect DEP and dual-core issues away from nVidia and onto someone else.

You are the one dragging ATi into the argument not me.
That's because it's extremely relevant to the topic at hand. It's hard to claim a board is faulty when another vendor that visibly uses the same AGP functions is stable in said board.

as I've stated multiple times the nV40 works flawlessly with other chipsets.
Not for DEP it didn't. Likewise dual-core issues are not limited to NF3 or NV40 either.

I don't care about your DEP issue
That's your problem, not mine. That you choose to ignore driver bugs that you can't weasel out of is an issue you need to work through with yourself.

It's yet another case of waiting for proper OS support, not relying on bolt-ons for existing OS's
Funny, ATi doesn't have to wait. ATi didn't have to wait for DEP either.

So, genius, it means you have a faulty nForce3.
No it doesn't.

I was assuming you still have the board in a spare system somewhere and presumably also the nV40
Fortunately I got rid of that stuff a while ago. Here's hoping the next person is smart enough to use an ATi card in the motherboard.

Well, nV3x *doesn't* have shader problems!
LMAO. Clearly I can see you're a lost cause.

You love bringing up SmartGART don't you? I'd advise you to look into its history before crowing too loud about how perfect it is - it had its problems too and needed fixing...
Whatever problems it may have had it still deemed my NF3 stable enough to use those AGP functions you claimed only nVidia uses.

Typical little boy - can't take the very same "medicine" you are only too happy to dish out to others...
Your "mediciine" is akin to cutting off an arm to fix a cut. Furthermore your "medicine" is more like a disease.

And just between you and me, I know why you prefer the BFG10K - you couldn't hit the broad side of a barn at 10 paces with anything smaller...
Be very careful with the accuracy accusations Gstanfor, if you lived in the same country as me I'd have you up for slander & defamation. :roll:
 

Phobic9

Golden Member
Apr 6, 2001
1,822
0
71
Aside from the flame wars, nice job on the benchies. I'm trying to decide what video upgrade I want next. I'm looking to upgrade my x800xl/Dell 2005FPW to a more powerful card for either a Westinghouse 37" LCD TV or a Dell 2407. I just don't know what to do... :(