My 401K........how much to invest yearly?

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Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Originally posted by: dullard
Originally posted by: OneOfTheseDays
Dullard, can you summarize the benefits of having a Roth IRA account? I hear that if you start investing young (early 20's and maxing out your contributions each year) that by the time you retire you are guaranteed at least 1 million dollars?
The Roth IRA is post-tax contributions. But you don't pay taxes when you withdraw it. The MAIN advantage of a Roth IRA is that it gives more flexibility than a traditional IRA. After retirement age you can get your money any way, shape, or form. You can take out a lot or you can let it sit and grow. The traditional IRA has strict rules about when and how much you can withdraw.

The other advantage of a Roth IRA is if tax rates go up, you are protected. You can pay low taxes now when you are earning less (lower tax bracket) and paying less (ie recent tax cut in the last few years). Then if tax rates later soar (Lets pretend social security/medicare problems force the goverment to raise taxes) you don't pay the higher taxes.

There is no guaranteed retirement amount with most forms of investment. Put all your retirement eggs in one basket and you could lose it all. The chance of that happening is slim though if you use multiple baskets. If you invest the maximum amount in the Roth IRA each year, you'll probably end up putting nearly $1M into it of your own money. Thus, even if your money earns nothing all that time, you will likely have $1M left when you retire. Of course, $1M in 50 years isn't going to be worth much. If the market grows though, you could do far better than $1M.


Also, you can take your Roth contributions at any time (no penalties, etc) because you have already paid taxes on them.

To the OP: Max them all out! :D

Originally posted by: JEDI
Originally posted by: vi_edit
General opinion is to max out your match on your 401k, then max out your Roth IRA. If you still have money left over, go back and add more to your 401k.

1) max out 401k match
2) pay off your non tax deductible debts (ie: credit cards, car loans)
3) then have 6months of expenses saved up in bank acct for emergencies
4) THEN max out Roth
5) then max out 401k

General concensus and I tend to agree with them. Make sure you have an emergency savings account and, finally, open a brokerage account and invest a little on the side. Of course, money being available for such activity! ;)
 

ponyo

Lifer
Feb 14, 2002
19,688
2,811
126
Don't invest. That's what Social Security is for. You should be living it up in your 20's.
 

Yossarian

Lifer
Dec 26, 2000
18,010
1
81
other than increased liquidity, what's the advantage of maxing Roth before 401k? iirc 2007 Roth limit is 4000 while 401k is 15,500. since 401k contributions are tax deductible it would seem smarter to take the full amount and defer taxes on that additional 11,500.
 

jamesave

Golden Member
Aug 27, 2000
1,610
0
76
Originally posted by: vi_edit
General opinion is to max out your match on your 401k, then max out your Roth IRA. If you still have money left over, go back and add more to your 401k.

ditto.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
26,024
4,650
126
Originally posted by: Yossarian
other than increased liquidity, what's the advantage of maxing Roth before 401k? iirc 2007 Roth limit is 4000 while 401k is 15,500. since 401k contributions are tax deductible it would seem smarter to take the full amount and defer taxes on that additional 11,500.
Deferring taxes is a sham argument. It MAY be good to defer taxes. I may be BAD to defer taxes. Depends on what happens to the tax rates. Do you know what the tax rates will be when you retire? I sure don't.

Thus, you can diversify with tax planning strategy. Have some tax deferred (great if tax rates fall) and some tax paid (great if tax rates raise). Thus, you have both. True, it is best to pick all of the good one. But what if you pick all of the bad one? Diversification means you have only a little of the bad and you still get a sufficient amount of the good.

The other advantages I mentioned above: usually more selection of funds and usually lower fees. Both are good things.
 

Jadow

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2003
5,962
2
0
If you want to retire at 75 it's not so important, however you never know what course life will take and you may be forced to retire much earlier.

That being said, you're really young and sock the most you can afford into retirement accounts, starting at 23 is SOOO much better than even starting at a still young age of 30.

Here is what you should do.

Contribute enough to get full company match
then
Max out Roth IRA
then
Put any additional money you can afford into the 401k.

 

Jadow

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2003
5,962
2
0
Days like today are when you really learn to appreciate your 401k. I'm 29 and been contributing to my roth and 401k since I was 19, and today was my first $1000 day!

I made a thousand bucks in 1 day!
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Originally posted by: Jadow
Days like today are when you really learn to appreciate your 401k. I'm 29 and been contributing to my roth and 401k since I was 19, and today was my first $1000 day!

I made a thousand bucks in 1 day!


Just wait. You'll see a few "multi" thousand drop days and you'll feel like crying! :Q
 

SSSnail

Lifer
Nov 29, 2006
17,458
83
86
Quick question, do I have to pay any taxes if I withdraw the retirements from another country? Will I run into any problems withdrawing it?
 

Jadow

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2003
5,962
2
0
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: Jadow
Days like today are when you really learn to appreciate your 401k. I'm 29 and been contributing to my roth and 401k since I was 19, and today was my first $1000 day!

I made a thousand bucks in 1 day!


Just wait. You'll see a few "multi" thousand drop days and you'll feel like crying! :Q

I've already had the $1000+ loss day, when it went down 400 pts back in Feb!
 

Jadow

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2003
5,962
2
0
Originally posted by: SSSnail
Quick question, do I have to pay any taxes if I withdraw the retirements from another country? Will I run into any problems withdrawing it?

In a 401k you will need to pay regular income taxes on your withdrawls. Any accounts wiht "Roth" in front of them you won't. You can't avoid the taxes just be moving out of the country, or every retiree would do it!
 

SSSnail

Lifer
Nov 29, 2006
17,458
83
86
Originally posted by: Jadow
Originally posted by: SSSnail
Quick question, do I have to pay any taxes if I withdraw the retirements from another country? Will I run into any problems withdrawing it?

In a 401k you will need to pay regular income taxes on your withdrawls. Any accounts wiht "Roth" in front of them you won't. You can't avoid the taxes just be moving out of the country, or every retiree would do it!

So what's the legal implications? What if I just move, withdraw all of it and place it in another account, and not pay a dime on taxes?
 

ultimatebob

Lifer
Jul 1, 2001
25,134
2,450
126
Originally posted by: Jadow
Days like today are when you really learn to appreciate your 401k. I'm 29 and been contributing to my roth and 401k since I was 19, and today was my first $1000 day!

I made a thousand bucks in 1 day!

How about that... I made about a thousand bucks today as well! I didn't even notice that the market surged today until you mentioned that :)
 

ponyo

Lifer
Feb 14, 2002
19,688
2,811
126
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: Jadow
Days like today are when you really learn to appreciate your 401k. I'm 29 and been contributing to my roth and 401k since I was 19, and today was my first $1000 day!

I made a thousand bucks in 1 day!


Just wait. You'll see a few "multi" thousand drop days and you'll feel like crying! :Q

Or 100k.
 

Wreckem

Diamond Member
Sep 23, 2006
9,547
1,127
126
Originally posted by: dullard
Originally posted by: Yossarian
other than increased liquidity, what's the advantage of maxing Roth before 401k? iirc 2007 Roth limit is 4000 while 401k is 15,500. since 401k contributions are tax deductible it would seem smarter to take the full amount and defer taxes on that additional 11,500.
Deferring taxes is a sham argument. It MAY be good to defer taxes. I may be BAD to defer taxes. Depends on what happens to the tax rates. Do you know what the tax rates will be when you retire? I sure don't.

Thus, you can diversify with tax planning strategy. Have some tax deferred (great if tax rates fall) and some tax paid (great if tax rates raise). Thus, you have both. True, it is best to pick all of the good one. But what if you pick all of the bad one? Diversification means you have only a little of the bad and you still get a sufficient amount of the good.

The other advantages I mentioned above: usually more selection of funds and usually lower fees. Both are good things.

The likelyhood of taxes being lower in 40-50 years is slim to none. The chance of taxes being much muich higher in 40-50 years is fairly high.
 

Jadow

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2003
5,962
2
0
Originally posted by: SSSnail
Originally posted by: Jadow
Originally posted by: SSSnail
Quick question, do I have to pay any taxes if I withdraw the retirements from another country? Will I run into any problems withdrawing it?

In a 401k you will need to pay regular income taxes on your withdrawls. Any accounts wiht "Roth" in front of them you won't. You can't avoid the taxes just be moving out of the country, or every retiree would do it!

So what's the legal implications? What if I just move, withdraw all of it and place it in another account, and not pay a dime on taxes?

you won't be able to do that, your 401k broker will take the withholdings out automatically.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Originally posted by: Naustica
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: Jadow
Days like today are when you really learn to appreciate your 401k. I'm 29 and been contributing to my roth and 401k since I was 19, and today was my first $1000 day!

I made a thousand bucks in 1 day!


Just wait. You'll see a few "multi" thousand drop days and you'll feel like crying! :Q

Or 100k.


Hell, I hope I never see a day like that!

Well, I take that back. It would be nice to have enough in there that routine down days produced days like that. Just as long as an up day did the same or more! ;)
 

Sho'Nuff

Diamond Member
Jul 12, 2007
6,211
121
106
If your company matches, contribute at least enough to get the full match (i.e., some companies require you to contribute 6% of your income for a 5% match). I only contribute 15% of my gross income, but that is because I would hit the yearly cap very quickly and lose the benefits of periodic investments if I did that. 15% of your gross is a good place for anyone to be at actually. Being so young, you will get used to that money not even being there and then wake up to a nice surprise when you turn 45 and have a ton of dough in there.
 

Reel

Diamond Member
Jul 14, 2001
4,484
0
76
To throw another cog into this thread, can you please comment on Roth 401(k) options (in reference to investment orders)? That is something available to me now that I switched jobs. I have traditionally done up to match in 401(k) then max Roth. Does this change things?

Also, is the match on Roth 401(k) a lower cash amount in the account since they are matching an after tax value?

Thanks. :)
 

Sho'Nuff

Diamond Member
Jul 12, 2007
6,211
121
106
Originally posted by: vi_edit
General opinion is to max out your match on your 401k, then max out your Roth IRA. If you still have money left over, go back and add more to your 401k.

I disagree with this "general opinion." True, you want to maximize your tax advantaged investments (roth, 401k etc.), but you can't just keep adding money to your 401k willy nilly. First, there is a still a yearly cap on 401k investments. While the OP at 23 is likely not going to push up against it, your "general opinion" doesn't take into account his future earning potential. Moreover, pre-tax investments are only as good as the mount of return you can make on them. If you have a crappy 401k plan like some do (e.g., the government), it might be better in the long run to contribute whatever you need to get the full match from your employer, and throw you extra cash into a non-retirment investment account that affords a lot more flexibility.

Saving for retirement is good, but people need to remember that there are numerous things to save for that occur between the time you get your first job and the time you retire. One of the best and easiest ways to set yourself up right is to get off to a good start when you are young. Then you don't have to scramble socking cash away when you are 40-50. My suggestion? Try the following mix:

1. Contribute enough to get the full match in your 401k, if you get a match. If not, put 7-10% of your gross income in there.

2. Set up an investment account with an online brokerage. I like Vanguard, but any of them will do. Scottrade is great for smaller investors, but doesn't have the really convenient funding options of the bigger services (at least the last time I checked). Anyways, once you have the account set up, look at your finances after your 401k deduction is taken out. Determine, based on your budget, a fixed dollar amount that you can live without out of every paycheck. For me, that's ~50% of my paycheck, but my wife and I are in very good financial shape and have excellent careers. When I started out years ago, it was ~5% of my check. Take that dollar amount, and, here is the absolute secret to this whole plan, have it AUTOMATICALLY deducted from your checking account and transferred to your investment account. It might be tough to see that cash go for the first few weeks, but you will eventually forget you ever had it in your check to begin with.

3. As the pile of money in your investment account grows, make periodic investments in mutual funds that invest in a wide variety of highly traded stocks (i.e., large and mid cap). As you get more money, buy a few more funds to round out your portfolio (i.e., branch out into small cap, bond, international market funds, etc).. If you are young, you can afford to take on more risk then if you are old, because you have more time to recover should the market take a dip (and trust me, over 30-40 years, it will dip and recover, over and over and over again), and so your account can be a little stock, international, small cap heavy to start. As you get older and need toensure that you money will be there when you need it, start converting to income (dividend) producing funds.

4. Finally, DO NOT, unless necessary or for a major life goal (car, house, boat, college education, etc) or an emergency, take money out of your investment account. The money you put in now will be what gives you the most return in 40 years, so exercise some restraint!
 
Sep 29, 2004
18,656
68
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If you have no interest in investing your money on your own and retiring early, by all means, do a 401K. Want to retire early, then start learning about investing and what value investing is.

Want to work for someone else all your life till your 60, then retire, load up that 401K!

Want to retire at 45? Better start learning and not wasting your time thinking the 401K is the way to go.

DISCLAIEMR: A 401K IS NOT A BAD THING. It's good for most. Just not good for me. I plan on semi-retirement prior to my kids hitting college when I am 47 or so.

NOTE: I am 31, have a $550K home. My wife doesn't work. I have 2 kids. I have no debt other than my mortgage. A small amount in my 401K (GD stock) and some in a Roth, which i have no contributed to in 2 years. And most of my cash is in my Ameritrade account. Not bad for a sfotware engineer!
 

Special K

Diamond Member
Jun 18, 2000
7,098
0
76
Originally posted by: JEDI
Originally posted by: vi_edit
General opinion is to max out your match on your 401k, then max out your Roth IRA. If you still have money left over, go back and add more to your 401k.

1) max out 401k match
2) pay off your non tax deductible debts (ie: credit cards, car loans)
3) then have 6months of expenses saved up in bank acct for emergencies
4) THEN max out Roth
5) then max out 401k

What if you are just starting out and have a student loan with a moderate interest rate, say 6-8% variable? Would it be better to:

1. pay down that loan ASAP, and then build the emergency fund
2. build the emergency fund ASAP and then pay the loan down
3. do both simultaneously until the emergency fund is in place, and then finish paying down the loan ASAP?