Muslims raping their way into Europe

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: tvarad
Aimster:

"Indonesia had a women President a few years ago."

Aimster,
Megawati Sukarnoputri was the daughter through one of the nine wives of Sukarno, the first president of independent Indonesia. In the 3rd world, it's the family name that gets you "elected". The fact that she is a woman is very inconsequential and has nothing to do with Islam or Indonesia's egalitarianism level.

Just as Benazir Bhutto became PM of Pakistan on the coattails of her father Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, Begum Khaleda Zia of Bangladesh on her husband Zia-ur-Rehman's, Indira Gandhi of India on her father Nehru's and Sonia Gandhi (the current de-facto ruler of India) on the Nehru/Gandhi name.

The previous experience of most of these women at governing was ordering the servants around as housewives.

They are the leaders of their opposition groups.

Indonesia has had two women leaders. There was one before Megawati.

Indonesia is a democratic naation meaning they were elected into power.

Who cares how they got elected? They were female and they got elected. Hilary Clinton would be nothing without Bill. The Kenedy (spl?) name in the U.S has helped people get elected as well. Point is they got elected. Bush is also a strong name in the U.S.

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: myocardia

Originally posted by: Aimster
What is this Hadith? Wasn?t it some book written by some man(men) after Muhammad died? It's based on the life of Muhammad, no?

Why do people follow a book that wasn't written by a prophet?

& now a personal question: Do you feel women should be forced to cover up since the Quran says "dress modestly??
The problem with the Quran is that it is not direct. It can be interpreted any way anyone sees fits.

That is why I bring up Islamic nations as my examples. They have interpreted it the way they see fit and therefore I find they are perfect examples. Especially democratic Islamic nations.

You're always implying that you're some sort of Muslim scholar, yet you've never heard of Hadith? I'm not Muslim, but yet I've heard that word at least 50 times in my life. And say what you want about Islam and the Quran, the Hadith is what the majority of M.E. Muslims follow, not the Quran.

I never said I am some Muslim scholar.

I said I've read the Quran and everything else outside the Quran is meaningless since it is not the word of God but man.

Majority of Muslims follow the Quran, not the Hadith. You are wrong.
All Muslims carry around a Quran. Not the Hadith.
Hadith is what preachers use to support their evidence... or "well prophet muhammad did this".

I dont care what some prophet did. Muhammad is not someone Muslims worship.

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: CPA

Originally posted by: Aimster


Even Iran the country where you believed women didn't hold power, you found out the Vice President is currently a female.

What are you talking about? The only female VP is the VP of the Department of Environment - the one area in which women are seen as figure heads. It's a token gesture for women, nothing more.

The First Vice President is Parviz Davoudi. It's a man, baby.

Iran has had many Vice Presidents.

Vice President of a department can make you a Vice President of Iran. She has the power over all other Vice Presidents. Read her bio and you'll see why.

Your claim was "women do not have jobs inside Iran". She can be president of dump and waste. The point is she is a boss and men report to her.

You did not elect her nor do you live inside Iran to sit here and suggest why she was appointed. Iranian females inside Iran go to university, serve in the police force and even serve in the military. Meaning female police officers roam the street and police men.

Ive never heard of such a claim that Iranian females are finding it hard to get jobs until I read your post. Ive heard of everyone finding it hard to get jobs and since there are a lack of jobs people usually join the military which is required by Iranian law for men (if they do not go to school)

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: hscorpio

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: babylon5
It's true that in countries such as Iran to Indonesia, women have had held political office in government and such.

But then, so do countries like Sweden and Norway and Finland.

The difference is, Western Europe countries are much more secular. Women have more rights, don't have to cover their body up because of religious reason. They have freedom of choosing what to wear. It's hard to deny in secular countries, women have more freedom and choices than a lot of women in Middle East countries in their daily life.

only two nations have laws requiring women to dress modestly....

Iran & Saudi Arabia

/end list

Just because there is no official law doesn't mean the women are free to dress as they want though. If you were a woman would you feel safe in any middle eastern country to the point that you could dress however you wanted like women can do in the west? Or would you be fearful of getting a beating?

In your other post you imply that muslim women in Indonesia are treated better than in M.E. countries like Saudi Arabia, suggesting this isn't about religion but is about M.E. culture. So where are the men that are supposedly commiting rape from?

It sounds like there is a lot of speculation here though so we don't even know for sure that it is non-western muslim immigrants responsible for all the rapes. Why couldn't it be from an increase in eastern european immigrants or some other reason like women feeling more free to come forward? Whatever the cause, its horrible if they really are blocking any serious inquiries into any trends for fear of anti-muslim sentiments.

* Look at Iraq when Saddam was in power. Women were walking the streets in revealing clothing. You can ask Magamoo about that (He is an Iraqi).

* Indonesia is a hotspot for European tourists. That means they go to their beaches in mini skirts.
*Turkey is a hotspot for European tourists as well. Their own police force has women dressed in mini-skirts.
*Lebanon is a hotspot for tourism as well.
*Queen of Jordan wears some revealing clothing. Her country is filled with Palestinians who IMO are raised to be extremist.

The point is women are free to dress however they want and the laws of those nations allow them to dress however they want (supposedly their laws are based off of Islamic laws). You are bringing up a cultural argument rather than a religious argument. The point of this thread is Islam is against woman, etc. It's not about culture.

Men commit rapes in every nation. Not 1 nation I listed allows a man to rape a woman and get away with it. You can dig up all you want and maybe you'll find one rare bizarre case where the man actually got away with it. I can do the same for just about every single country including the U.S.

You don't see the trend do you?
People in the South claim the Mexicans rape their women (in the U.S).
People in Europe claim the Muslim immigrants (who are Europe's Mexicans) rape their women.

Muslims who come to the U.S are usually educated.
Muslims who go to Europe are usually uneducated.

 

[imported_hscorpio]

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: hscorpio

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: babylon5
It's true that in countries such as Iran to Indonesia, women have had held political office in government and such.

But then, so do countries like Sweden and Norway and Finland.

The difference is, Western Europe countries are much more secular. Women have more rights, don't have to cover their body up because of religious reason. They have freedom of choosing what to wear. It's hard to deny in secular countries, women have more freedom and choices than a lot of women in Middle East countries in their daily life.

only two nations have laws requiring women to dress modestly....

Iran & Saudi Arabia

/end list

Just because there is no official law doesn't mean the women are free to dress as they want though. If you were a woman would you feel safe in any middle eastern country to the point that you could dress however you wanted like women can do in the west? Or would you be fearful of getting a beating?

In your other post you imply that muslim women in Indonesia are treated better than in M.E. countries like Saudi Arabia, suggesting this isn't about religion but is about M.E. culture. So where are the men that are supposedly commiting rape from?

It sounds like there is a lot of speculation here though so we don't even know for sure that it is non-western muslim immigrants responsible for all the rapes. Why couldn't it be from an increase in eastern european immigrants or some other reason like women feeling more free to come forward? Whatever the cause, its horrible if they really are blocking any serious inquiries into any trends for fear of anti-muslim sentiments.

* Look at Iraq when Saddam was in power. Women were walking the streets in revealing clothing. You can ask Magamoo about that (He is an Iraqi).

* Indonesia is a hotspot for European tourists. That means they go to their beaches in mini skirts.
*Turkey is a hotspot for European tourists as well. Their own police force has women dressed in mini-skirts.
*Lebanon is a hotspot for tourism as well.
*Queen of Jordan wears some revealing clothing. Her country is filled with Palestinians who IMO are raised to be extremist.

The point is women are free to dress however they want and the laws of those nations allow them to dress however they want (supposedly their laws are based off of Islamic laws). You are bringing up a cultural argument rather than a religious argument. The point of this thread is Islam is against woman, etc. It's not about culture.

Men commit rapes in every nation. Not 1 nation I listed allows a man to rape a woman and get away with it. You can dig up all you want and maybe you'll find one rare bizarre case where the man actually got away with it. I can do the same for just about every single country including the U.S.

You don't see the trend do you?
People in the South claim the Mexicans rape their women (in the U.S).
People in Europe claim the Muslim immigrants (who are Europe's Mexicans) rape their women.

Muslims who come to the U.S are usually educated.
Muslims who go to Europe are usually uneducated.

I know many countries that have economies reliant on tourism will tolerate women dressing in western style like Egypt. I was asking you more specifically if you would feel safe as a female muslim citizen (not a foreign tourist) of any M.E. countries, to dress any way you want in everyday situations. I ask in all seriousness because I am not familiar with the area and only know from what I've read (often biased...) but you sound like you have firsthand experience with the region.

I do see the trends you mention. I'm saying that if the trend the op mentioned is true and it is M.E. men committing most of the rapes then they need to address it and not just sweep it under the rug in the name of PC. On the other hand if its just BS based on xenophobia then we should address that. The only way to know is to be honest and transparent with the rape stats. Rape is kind of an oddball crime since its not tied to poverty like so many other crimes that mexicans in the US are always being accused of. If it really M.E. men raping women because they think its ok since the women dress 'easy' then that needs to be corrected through education.

 

[StormRider]

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: Skoorb

So unless you can bring up some proof that the majority of Muslims treat their women like crap and actually allow raping, and all that other BS mentioned in this thread.. you can keep your comments to yourself from now on.

With all due respect, I'm quite unable to ever keep my thoughts to myself. I think it is simplifying things to pretend that an Indonesisian president is female because of Islam...perhaps in spite of it. How do you reconcile the fact that in Saudi, for instance, women cannot drive or really have much in the way of freedoms unless allowed by a man? How can you explain how women have a tiny minority of jobs in Iran? There are many sides to the issue, but it's really disingenuous to pretend that Islam perpetuates women's rights. It sure as crap does not, especially in the hardcore Muslim societies.

Saudi Arabia is a shithole country

Population 20 million. They have some of the most barbaric rules in the world.

All the rules of Saudi Arabia are stuck inside Saudi Arabia. They do not go on anywhere outside of Saudi Arabia.

-
As for your other comments.
Women have jobs inside Iran. The vice president of Iran is female and she is also the President of environment. Therefore, what are you talking about?

Isn't it possible that Indonesia's prior Asian culture deluded Islam's influence and that's why they are more moderate? Same with Iran -- the Persian culture was a very strong one and maybe that's why it's more moderate.

It's almost like the farther you go away from the birthplace of Islam, you get a more moderate Islam -- unless you're dirt poor and Saudi Arabia finances a bunch of Madras in your country -- then you a more strict Islam. Is the moderate form of Islam the true Islam?

 

[Aimster]

To answer your question

I wouldn?t feel safe being in any Muslim nation other than Turkey. This goes for being male/female.

I think if you just focus the attention on the M.E, rather than the rest of the Muslim world you will see that a lot of the problems come out of the M.E. I think the M.E has a problem of accepting women as being equal to men. The people of the M.E are almost all under dictatorship style governments. They are oppressed people and they are poor. Their attention is thus turned to radical forms of Islam because they don't have anything else to look forward to in life.

When you look outside the M.E (I don't really consider Turkey to be part of the M.E) you will find a lot of tolerate Muslim nations. Indonesia's population is the same size as all of the populations of the Arab nations, yet we hardly hear of anything coming from Indonesia or their people.

Still however, radical forms of Islam exist in every nation. It is a plague that hopefully doesn't spread. With the rising economies of almost all non-oil producing Muslim nations (which are the largest) I don?t think that it will spread

However, as for the M.E I see nothing but radical Islam controlling them for many years to come. You have a country like the UAE that allows drinking and western tourists to be free right next to a country like Saudi Arabia that relies on devoted Muslims coming to Mecca to pray. It will be interesting who would win the battle. Since the M.E is primarily a dictatorship all around, these govts. can and will eventually fall. Their replacements can be positive or much worse.

 

[Aimster]

I think it depends on their education level.

The Muslims in the U.S are most certainly not acting like the Muslims in Europe. There has to be a reason why.

I believe the majority of Muslims who came to the U.S came for A) education B) they had wealth c) they are diplomats with their families and friends.

I think it is the complete opposite for the European Muslims. The majority of them went to Europe to A) get a job anywhere, including MCDs B) escape oppressive governments C) they were poor in their country so they fled to Europe thinking they would be rich making minimum wage.

As for the rich-education link: I am just assuming that generally the rich in those nations have an education and the poor are mostly from villages where they lack a solid education.
The villages in those nations are generally where the radical Muslims come from.
In almost every nation when a radical leader stages a protest, they have to bus in people from the villages.