Muslim medical students object to evolution

[Gigantopithecus]

Scientist say one thing today, and something else tomorrow.

For someone who talks a lot about who does and does not have a place in science, you sure don't understand it very well.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

What difference does it make that it's medical school? You seriously think that no Christians have ever bugged out of a class because it taught evolution? The only reason we're hearing about this is because the Daily Mail is an alarmist, fear mongering rag that seizes on every anecdotal incident it can find and tries to make it into something vaguely resembling "news."

None ever? Sure some have. If the standard for a pass on behavior (or condemnation as the case may be) is "ever" we can play that game all day. I don't know the daily mail at all and I don't care to. I will say that if there is a substantial problem with students opting out of class because of religious objections then it's an issue. If a group of Christians does it they ought to be given the boot too. Is that happening? Is the body of the article incorrect? Did you bother to read my later post? If I were to make a claim that gays were pedophiles and cite NAMBLA as an example would you buy that? Certainly not. How about if I went on to say that "can you say that no gays are pedophiles?" That argument would be absurd as well. You can do better.

 

[Texashiker]

For someone who talks a lot about who does and does not have a place in science, you sure don't understand it very well.

When did I say someone did not belong in science?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

For someone who talks a lot about who does and does not have a place in science, you sure don't understand it very well.

You know by now that it's impossible to discuss anything regarding religion and science in one topic. Perfectly intelligent people are rendered incapable of logical arguments.

 

[Blackjack200]

I'd sure like the link which shows that Christian medical students don't go to classes which discuss evolution.

What difference does it make that it's medical school? You seriously think that no Christians have ever bugged out of a class because it taught evolution? The only reason we're hearing about this is because the Daily Mail is an alarmist, fear mongering rag that seizes on every anecdotal incident it can find and tries to make it into something vaguely resembling "news."

Do English Medical Students pay for their studies? I have a hard time imagining a medical student that's paying $50k per year here pulling something like this.

The same thing could have been said at any point in time during our history.

People that think the world is round do not have any place in science.

People that think things are so small (bacteria and viruses) we can not see them do not have any place in science.

People that say the earth is not the center of the universe do not have any place in science.

Personally, I am not convinced evolution happens the way scientist say it happens. We should not anything as an absolute fact. Scientist say one thing today, and something else tomorrow.

But there is also a difference in being a skeptic, and being in absolute denial.

Good. Don't take your kids to the doctor anymore, all that medicine is science based, and ya know, scientists say one thing today, and something else tomorrow. Don't bother hitting the brakes when the car in front of you slows down, the laws of inertia could change at any moment. And whatever you do, don't get on an airplane. Scientists might suddenly figure out that Bernoulli's principal is wrong and all the planes will fall out of the sky - that is, if Newton's law of gravity hasn't been disproven yet.

If you don't want to educate yourself, if you want to remain so ridiculously uninformed that you could say something as profoundly stupid as "I am not convinced evolution happens the way scientist say it happens" then do us all a favor and just stay the fuck out of the way while actual scientists who not only believe in evolution, but use it every day to make our lives better, get their work done.

 

[Gigantopithecus]

When did I say someone did not belong in science?

People that think the world is round do not have any place in science.

People that think things are so small (bacteria and viruses) we can not see them do not have any place in science.

People that say the earth is not the center of the universe do not have any place in science.

Are you cognitively impaired or just drunk or high or something?

 

[Texashiker]

Are you cognitively impaired or just drunk or high or something?

You are the one that is cognitively impaired, I was referring to how opinions have changed over the past few hundred years.

 

[Gigantopithecus]

you know by now that it's impossible to discuss anything regarding religion and science in one topic on anandtech.

ftfy. 😉

 

[Gigantopithecus]

You are the one that is cognitively impaired, I was referring to how opinions have changed over the past few hundred years.

Science didn't exist when those things you mentioned were understood, so even if that was the point of your unclear post, you still don't get it. I'm done arguing with a retard, good day.

 

[woolfe9999]

None ever? Sure some have. If the standard for a pass on behavior (or condemnation as the case may be) is "ever" we can play that game all day. I don't know the daily mail at all and I don't care to. I will say that if there is a substantial problem with students opting out of class because of religious objections then it's an issue. If a group of Christians does it they ought to be given the boot too. Is that happening? Is the body of the article incorrect? Did you bother to read my later post? If I were to make a claim that gays were pedophiles and cite NAMBLA as an example would you buy that? Certainly not. How about if I went on to say that "can you say that no gays are pedophiles?" That argument would be absurd as well. You can do better.

Exactly, and you're missing my point. Anecdotal evidence is meaningless, which is what is presented in the article. This article is talking about an undefined number of Muslim students at one medical school. Like you said, "if the standard for a pass on behavior (or condemnation as the case may be) is "ever" we can play that game all day." That is why I brought up the notion that some Christian somewhere has probably done this. This is selection bias in the media. The fact that a few students sit out a lecture isn't "news" unless someone has an agenda.

Did you read my post above where I link a blog that identifies not one, but 9 incidents of presumably Christian creationists making death threats? Like you said, we can play the anecdote game all day long.

 

[Texashiker]

I'm done arguing with a retard, good day.

Good day to you as well.

If you don't want to educate yourself, if you want to remain so ridiculously uninformed that you could say something as profoundly stupid as "I am not convinced evolution happens the way scientist say it happens"

Nope, "I am not convinced evolution happens the way scientist say it happens", because every few months some new discovery is made that throws a kink in the theories.

Scientist can not even get human history down without something new coming out every few months.

There have been discoveries that were discarded by scientist for decades, and then finally accepted as fact. The discovery of Homo erectus in 1891 was discarded for close to 2 decades before it was finally accepted. A lot of so called professionals rejected the discovery of Homo erectus without even looking at the evidence.

But for some reason I am supposed to blindly accept what those people say as fact? No thank you.

 

[Darwin333]

"increasing number of biology students boycotting lectures on Darwinist theory, which form an important part of the syllabus, citing their religion."

How the hell do you get passed biology 101 while denying that evolution exists based solely on religion? I wouldn't think that you could even be called a "biology student" if you think evolution is wrong based purely on religion.

 

[Darwin333]

Good day to you as well.




Nope, "I am not convinced evolution happens the way scientist say it happens", because every few months some new discovery is made that throws a kink in the theories.

Scientist can not even get human history down without something new coming out every few months.

There have been discoveries that were discarded by scientist for decades, and then finally accepted as fact. The discovery of Homo erectus in 1891 was discarded for close to 2 decades before it was finally accepted. A lot of so called professionals rejected the discovery of Homo erectus without even looking at the evidence.

But for some reason I am supposed to blindly accept what those people say as fact? No thank you.

You could use the exact same argument for basically every single scientific theory (note: HUGE difference between the everyday use of the word "theory" and a scientific theory), every single field of science, and damn near everything we currently know.

So basically, you believe in nothing at all? Hell, the theory of gravity has changed since newton. Do you believe that gravity does not exist for the reasons cited above?

PS: Everything you wrote is what makes science so great. Not only does science readily admit when it is wrong but it actually strives to prove itself wrong. That is what science does.

 

[Screech]

Good day to you as well.




Nope, "I am not convinced evolution happens the way scientist say it happens", because every few months some new discovery is made that throws a kink in the theories.

Scientist can not even get human history down without something new coming out every few months.

There have been discoveries that were discarded by scientist for decades, and then finally accepted as fact. The discovery of Homo erectus in 1891 was discarded for close to 2 decades before it was finally accepted. A lot of so called professionals rejected the discovery of Homo erectus without even looking at the evidence.

But for some reason I am supposed to blindly accept what those people say as fact? No thank you.

.....Wow.

There are new discoveries that shed more light on the path that human evolution has followed over the past thousands of years as our available materials to study (fossils, etc) expands.

To say that this somehow throws a "kink in the theories" of anything relating to how evolution actually works is so absurd that to discuss it further seems pointless, but I'll try anyway. What you are describing is the fact that science is reevaluated and theories (about the course of human evolution, for example) are changed if new evidence comes to light regarding that fact.

There has been absolutely no new information that has thrown a kink into the theory that life evolves, ever. There has, however, been a wealth of information supporting the fact that life does, in fact, evolve. In addition, the various new information uncovered wrt human evolution merely shows this to be even more true (there are a number of relatively recently discovered "dead ends" along the tree of human evolution that died out while other branches eventually progressed to where we are today).

Of course, perhaps I merely misread your argument and you were indeed finding issue with the narrative of human evolution and not the idea that life evolves. However, your initial post does not support that position: "I am not convinced evolution happens the way scientist say it happens." How, then, does life.... evolve?

I would suggest you do not take penicillin for the next penicillin -resistant bacterial infection you get .....I hear the reason why has something to do with....uh.....evolution.

For you tl;dr folks: we find more information regarding the course of human evolution all the time. The theory that humans have evolved from more distant ancestors (as has life on earth generally), however, has not changed.

 

[Texashiker]

So basically, you believe in nothing at all?

Not sure if you are being serious?

I would suggest you do not take penicillin for the next penicillin -resistant bacterial infection you get .....I hear the reason why has something to do with....uh.....evolution.

When the bacteria divides and produces, is the offspring penicillin-resistant?

If so, that is more of a sign of evolution then a single bacteria becoming resistant.

 

[Blackjack200]

Not sure if your being serious?

Yes, actually, he is being serious. If your standard to belive in something is that our understanding of it can never change, then the number of things you believe in is effectively zero.

Oh wait, I forgot, you actually believe in God because while you require piles of evidence (and even that's not enough) for science, you have no problem accepting vengeful supernatural deities and talking snakes without the slightest bit of evidence. Pretty ironic, no?

 

[Mark R]

Do English Medical Students pay for their studies? I have a hard time imagining a medical student that's paying $50k per year here pulling something like this.

They pay a subsidized rate, which depends on when they joined (the subsidy has been being slashed in recent years).

The tuition fees (not including accomodation, study materials, etc.) they would be paying would be between $5k per year and $15k per year (depending on when they started).

 

[Mark R]

somehow i doubt this! proof?

I can't give you written proof. Only the stories from two friends, both doctors, who worked in Saudi for several years while doing military service.

Never, in their entire time in Saudi, did they ever have a woman (or husband) complain about seeing a male doctor. The first time they have had this experience was when they came back to the UK.

Similarly, they both taught at the medical schools there. The curriculum and course is basically identical to the UK medical training (it's even taught in English). They never once had any kind of problem with "religious" objection to the course teaching.

 

[1prophet]

Religious fundies object to evolution? Color me shocked.

Apparently, or so says the Daily Fail, these Muslims learned from the masters:

Sources within the group Muslims4UK partly blame the growing popularity of creationist beliefs within Islam on Turkish author Harun Yahya who, influenced by the success of Christian creationists in America, has written several books denouncing Darwinist theory.

Where are these supposed success's christian creationists have had in America that haven't been struck down by the courts?



Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmiller_v._Dover_Area_School_District#Litigants

On February 21, 2006, the newly elected Dover Area School Board voted, unanimously with one abstention, to pay $1,000,011 in legal fees and damages due to the parents and their lawyers as a result of the verdict in the case, a large sum of money for a small district. The previous school board had been offered the opportunity to rescind its policy, and avoid paying legal fees, immediately after the lawsuit was filed in 2004, but it declined. The parents' attorneys Pepper Hamilton stated that court records would show that they were entitled to more than $2 million, but were going to accept less than half that amount in recognition of the small size of the school district, and because the school board that voted for the policy had been voted out of office, leaving the new school board "having the bill placed in their laps." The previous school board had been defended without charge by the Thomas More Law Center.[38] Richard Katskee, assistant legal director for Americans United, said of the trial's cost, "Any board thinking of trying to do what the Dover board did is going to have to look for a bill in excess of $2 million," and "I think $2 million is a lot to explain to taxpayers for a lawsuit that should never be fought."[39

http://news.change.org/stories/success-creationist-textbook-writers-back-out-of-texas

In 2005, a federal judge ruled that FTE's "intelligent design" science textbook Of Pandas And People could not be taught in public schools because it violated the Constitution. But in 2009, the Texas state school board put forward creationist-friendly science standards, giving FTE another chance to put forth their religious educational materials. Texas Freedom Network says FTE's decision to withdraw their curriculum materials "is very good news for supporters of sound science education and students in Texas public schools," and "a huge disappointment for evolution deniers."

http://www.ffrf.org/faq/about-the-foundation/what-are-the-foundations-accomplishments/

The Foundation and its staff attorneys act on countless violations of separation of state and church on behalf of members and the public, including: Prayers in public schools, payment of funds for religious purposes, government funding of pervasively sectarian institutions, and the ongoing campaign against civil rights for women, gays and lesbians led by churches.
The Foundation keeps several challenges in the courts at all times, and has ended a variety of violations of the First Amendment including:
• Winning the first federal case challenging “faith-based funding” of a pervasively sectarian social agency
• Winning the first court order to a U.S. Cabinet revoking federal funds to a pervasively sectarian agency
• Halting federal funds to a bible school offering no academic classes
• Ending “parish nursing” faith/health entanglements at two state universities
• Halting a government chaplaincy to minister to state workers
Other victories include:
• Winning a legal challenge ending 51 years of illegal bible instruction in Rhea County (Dayton, Tennessee) public schools
• Winning a federal court decision overturning a law declaring Good Friday a state holiday
• Barring direct subsidy to religious schools, in a federal lawsuit upheld by an appeals court
• Declaring unconstitutional the creation of a state post to “assist clergy” to save marriages
• Stopping public financing of an annual nativity pageant at a state capitol
• Ending commencement prayers at a Top Ten University
• Halting religious postal cancellation

Etc. etc. etc.


With these type of successes I wouldn't want to see what a failure looks like.😕

 

[Texashiker]

There has been absolutely no new information that has thrown a kink into the theory that life evolves, ever.

That is either a bold face lie, or you just don't know any better.

There have been discoveries that have cast doubt on evolution, and the age of dinosaurs.

This article was published in Discover Magazine a few years ago.

http://discovermagazine.com/2006/apr/dinosaur-dna

How do dinosaur bones that are supposed to be hundreds of millions years old look like they are only a few hundred years old? The bones still had a smell to them, and had spongy material where the bone marrow is supposed to be.

Yes, actually, he is being serious. If your standard to belive in something is that our understanding of it can never change, then the number of things you believe in is effectively zero.

Your comments are not even worth a reply.

 

[woolfe9999]

Where are these supposed success's christian creationists have had in America that haven't been struck down by the courts?



Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmiller_v._Dover_Area_School_District#Litigants


http://news.change.org/stories/success-creationist-textbook-writers-back-out-of-texas

http://www.ffrf.org/faq/about-the-foundation/what-are-the-foundations-accomplishments/

Etc. etc. etc.


With these type of successes I wouldn't want to see what a failure looks like.😕

Oh, they've been extremely successful in a relative sense. You're measuring success in the wrong way. The fact is, evolution is rejected by many in this country. Polls show shockingly high percentages of people who question evolution and/or adhere to "intelligent design." Not so in Europe, for example. "Scientific creationism" and "intelligent design" are essentially the product of American Christian fundies, and it has been quite successful as propaganda.

They also are apparently starting to influence Muslims outside the US, just as American and European Holocaust deniers have influenced some Muslims.

- wolf

 

[Texashiker]

Polls show shockingly high percentages of people who question evolution and/or adhere to "intelligent design."

Polls also show a shockingly high number of people who blindly accept evolution as fact.

I believe in evolution, but I also have my doubts about certain things.

 

[Whiskey16]

I'd sure like the link which shows that Christian medical students don't go to classes which discuss evolution.

A personal walk-out is a fairly mundane action in comparison to state governments and school boards officially chastising the validity of reality and enforcing the instruction of fantasy in a science class.

The opinions of a few? So be it. When it becomes an enforcement against reason upon all, then the society is damned. < Looking at good portions of the USA>

So yes, there is a difference in how chistians and muslims react to people who challenge their beliefs.

....Seeing of the posting history of the OP and knowing of the DailyMail, this is most certainly a piece pushed well beyond reasonable proportion, all for an anti-Muslim agenda.

Bigotry is what it is, and it's sadly all to expected to again see a likeness to StormFront in this forum.

 

[Rainsford]

Science really comes down to this. If you want to be involved, you either have to agree with what smart people with data have come up with before you or you have to come up with your own theories and support them with data and analysis. Religious based protesting or groundless "skepticism" have absolutely no place in scientific fields. If you want to sit on the sidelines and shout at everyone, that's fine, but don't expect a spot at the table.

 

[Blackjack200]

Your comments are not even worth a reply.

Heh, I was looking over some of your old threads, trying to figure out if you're really as stupid as you seem, or if you're a fantastic troll. I was reminded of Poe's law; which was, incidently, born on a message board thread debating creationism.

The original sentence read &#8220;Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is uttrerly [sic] impossible to parody a Creationist in such a way that someone won&#8217;t mistake [it] for the genuine article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law

So if you are just trolling the forums, I think you are brilliant! Nicely done.

If not, make sure you keep the drool off your chin, and try not to scrape your knuckles on the pavement too badly. Cheers. 🙂