Music Key Question

[MrCodeDude]

Referencing the score of Beethoven's Pathetique Sonata 2nd Movement, the questions are:

1. In bars 18-19, there are consistent E naturals. What key uses this key signature plus E naturals?

2. In bars 37-42, there are C flats. What key uses this key signature plus C flats and has a bass line that outlines the notes Ab, Eb, Ab?

Because of the way the key signatures flat's are ordered (b-e-a-d-g-c-f), how can you have a key signature with four flats, but have E naturals?

 

[bleeb]

you're trippin

 

[MrCodeDude]

I found out the first one is f minor. From wikipedia:

To create F minor's harmonic scale the seventh note is raised one semitone to E natural.

I think the second one is ab (A flat minor), except it doesn't use the same key signature. It adds three flats.

 

[nakedfrog]

Is ab the relative minor for F minor?

 

[sobriquet]

If you have 4 flats (Ab Major) but then introduce C flat, you're effectively in Ab minor with raised scale degrees 6 and 7. If the goal is for the sound of Ab melodic minor, there'd be no need to introduce Gb and Fb. Besides, a bass line outlining Ab-Eb-Ab would almost have to indicate Ab, unless the music is full of plagal cadences.

 

[MrCodeDude]

Originally posted by: sobriquet
If you have 4 flats (Ab Major) but then introduce C flat, you're effectively in Ab minor with raised scale degrees 6 and 7. If the goal is for the sound of Ab melodic minor, there'd be no need to introduce Gb and Fb. Besides, a bass line outlining Ab-Eb-Ab would almost have to indicate Ab, unless the music is full of plagal cadences.

So it's just A flat Major? It was a dirty trick question?

 

[SVT Cobra]

Originally posted by: sobriquet
If you have 4 flats (Ab Major) but then introduce C flat, you're effectively in Ab minor with raised scale degrees 6 and 7. If the goal is for the sound of Ab melodic minor, there'd be no need to introduce Gb and Fb. Besides, a bass line outlining Ab-Eb-Ab would almost have to indicate Ab, unless the music is full of plagal cadences.

:thumbsup: Sounds right from what I remember from Music Theory a long time ago.

 

[sobriquet]

I don't know if it was a trick question - I don't have the score to look at. But as there is no key that uses the first four flats and Cb without Gb in between, I'd assume the only option is Ab minor. And again, I'm not looking at the music as I say this, but if a bass line is outlining Ab-Eb-Ab, chances are Ab is the tonic. Ab tonic + Cb = Ab minor.

 

[MrCodeDude]

Originally posted by: sobriquet
I don't know if it was a trick question - I don't have the score to look at. But as there is no key that uses the first four flats and Cb without Gb in between, I'd assume the only option is Ab minor. And again, I'm not looking at the music as I say this, but if a bass line is outlining Ab-Eb-Ab, chances are Ab is the tonic. Ab tonic + Cb = Ab minor.

The score is here: http://www.8notes.com/scores/3062.asp?ftype=gif

Click the >> to go to the second page.

 

[MrCodeDude]

Couldn't it also be gb? Couldn't it be the second chord progression of the G flat minor?

 

[biggestmuff]

WTF? Dude. Look at the beginning of each line. The key signature is 4 flats. That is the key of A? Major/F Minor; A?, B?, C, D?, E?, F, G, A?. Any notes used outside of this scale are indicated using an accidental. In the case you described, an E and a C?. Since both of those notes fall outside of the key the piece was written in, then a "natural" symbol has to be used.

 

[sobriquet]

Have you listened to it? I just listened to the midi, and without even seeing the notes, it's definitely in minor. Bar 42 is super funky, though. It goes to Cb Dom7 on beats 1&2 to Fb Major on 3&4.

 

[sobriquet]

Originally posted by: biggestmuff
WTF? Dude. Look at the beginning of each line. The key signature is 4 flats. That is the key of A? Major/F Minor; A?, B?, C, D?, E?, F, G, A?. Any notes used outside of this scale are indicated using an accidental. In the case you described, an E and a C?. Since both of those notes fall outside of the key the piece was written in, then a "natural" symbol has to be used.

Why is this a WTF? There are accidentals in the score, specifically accidentals indicating E natural and C flat. I don't think this was ever in question.

 

[MrCodeDude]

Have you listened to it? I just listened to the midi, and without even seeing the notes, it's definitely in minor. Bar 42 is super funky, though. It goes to Cb Dom7 on beats 1&2 to Fb Major on 3&4.

Yes, I have listened to it but I'm not musically inclined. I can hear different sounds when listening to music, but that's the entire breadth of my abilities.

Originally posted by: sobriquet

Originally posted by: biggestmuff
WTF? Dude. Look at the beginning of each line. The key signature is 4 flats. That is the key of A? Major/F Minor; A?, B?, C, D?, E?, F, G, A?. Any notes used outside of this scale are indicated using an accidental. In the case you described, an E and a C?. Since both of those notes fall outside of the key the piece was written in, then a "natural" symbol has to be used.

Why is this a WTF? There are accidentals in the score, specifically accidentals indicating E natural and C flat. I don't think this was ever in question.

For the first example, why does f minor use E naturals, where Ab major uses E flats? There is no difference between the key signatures, it just seems to be a property of the key.

 

[sobriquet]

Exactly. The raising of one note should be a big clue that something is changing with the key. In this case, raising Eb to E is a big indication that the piece is now in f minor with a raised 7 (serving as the leading tone).

 

[biggestmuff]

Originally posted by: sobriquet

Originally posted by: biggestmuff
WTF? Dude. Look at the beginning of each line. The key signature is 4 flats. That is the key of A? Major/F Minor; A?, B?, C, D?, E?, F, G, A?. Any notes used outside of this scale are indicated using an accidental. In the case you described, an E and a C?. Since both of those notes fall outside of the key the piece was written in, then a "natural" symbol has to be used.

Why is this a WTF? There are accidentals in the score, specifically accidentals indicating E natural and C flat. I don't think this was ever in question.

The answer is in the key signature; four flats. Any notes deviating from the assigned key (A?, B?, C, D?, E?, F, G) need to marked with an accidental.

 

[sobriquet]

Originally posted by: biggestmuff

Originally posted by: sobriquet

Originally posted by: biggestmuff
WTF? Dude. Look at the beginning of each line. The key signature is 4 flats. That is the key of A? Major/F Minor; A?, B?, C, D?, E?, F, G, A?. Any notes used outside of this scale are indicated using an accidental. In the case you described, an E and a C?. Since both of those notes fall outside of the key the piece was written in, then a "natural" symbol has to be used.

Why is this a WTF? There are accidentals in the score, specifically accidentals indicating E natural and C flat. I don't think this was ever in question.

The answer is in the key signature; four flats. Any notes deviating from the assigned key (A?, B?, C, D?, E?, F, G) need to marked with an accidental.

Yes, I'm quite aware of that, and so is the OP. The accidentals are in the score.