Multitasking, physical core vs virtual cores

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taltamir

Lifer
Mar 21, 2004
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Give it a rest OK. Intels 8core and 8s systems have featurers that AMD CPUs just don't have . They are not meant to compete with $6000 dollars Cheapo server. They are made to run against highend Risk tech. The big dollar stuff . If you have a link to a 4S MC running against a 8s 8c Intel . Something not from AMD. Its nice you can always fall back on . But our system is cheaper. Great for those who don't care about great performance . Because Great Performance comes from Intel only . Good performance comes to us via AMD . In a race second is 1st looser.

mind naming those features?

So true and thats why intel has All customer demands settled pretty dam good. They have the cpu you want at Any price point up to server and from server on up again all bases are covered. All price points are covered. Except the in the ceral box Chip giveaway.

so... intel charging certain customers more "because they can" makes them better at servicing customers? that is pretty twisted logic.

Although I don't believe that AMD is doing this out of the goodness of their heart, but as a way to remain competitive with intel
 
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Nemesis 1

Lifer
Dec 30, 2006
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You go away man, you are the worst of all and I'm not gonna waste my time arguing with someone so biased for Intel and that speaks an extraterrestrial english that's very hard to understand. I was having a nice conversation with someone who knows what's talking about, you don't know a thing. So I will just ignore you. ;)



You are right, we may say as well that AMD processors are faster in optimized SSE4A software, something that Intel doesn't have, but it would be heavily one sided and plain stupid. And this topic is about general multi core performance.



Wow, every time that you attack someone, it makes you look smarter, keep going... :rolleyes:

Wow, every time that you attack someone, it makes you look smarter, keep going...
 

Nemesis 1

Lifer
Dec 30, 2006
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mind naming those features?



so... intel charging certain customers more "because they can" makes them better at servicing customers? that is pretty twisted logic.

Although I don't believe that AMD is doing this out of the goodness of their heart, but as a way to remain competitive with intel

RAS: reliability, availability and serviceability. The 7500 have over 20 Ras features only available on Itanic.

On the Intel / AMD thing . If AMD lead in performance you would pay a hugh price for that performance . We all know this . We all Been threw it. So the Price thing means nothing to me . I choose performance at afforable price that = Intel. AMD offers fair performance at a fair price point . I don't see what the problem is . Buy what ever you want . Just don't compare the cpus until AMD builds a good performer. 2nd best at performance = looser.


Scali your kinda hard on JFAMD. He is a great source of info . His sig says everthing. So when he talks See from his perspective. Even tho you have your perspective respect his . He seems to be pretty good guy to me.
 
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taltamir

Lifer
Mar 21, 2004
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RAS: reliability, availability and serviceability. The 7500 have over 20 Ras features only available on Itanic.
Itanium... and I thought you were talking about intel's x86 architecture, I didn't realize you meant itanium.

We all Been threw it
Through.

And yes, I distinctly recall 1000$ AMD CPUs back in the day. I see nothing wrong with it either... charge what you can get. Development is expensive.
When I said "I don't see the point of the 4P / 8P tax" I meant to say that I believe it, overall, makes them less money, because nobody would buy them at such a price. I was proven wrong on that regard immediately afterwards, they are still 10% of the market. This is because apparently space, cooling, staff, etc cost significantly more money then I realized.
 
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GaiaHunter

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2008
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Required is an odd word to use. it is simpler to design a CPU with more cores than it is to work on scaling existing cores. But there is no inherent requirement in software to have more cores, it is actually detrimental to the software, making it much more difficult to program.

You misunderstood what I meant or maybe we are simply seeing it from different angles.

I'm not looking this from the perspective of either software or hardware (and as I said before, I agree parallel programming is a lot harder and that is why, combined with workloads that aren't parallel by nature, multiple cores don't scale almost perfectly), I'm looking from the perspective of getting work done.

And we can't ignore multi-tasking - we can easily have an OS, have tons of drivers running, have a game running, macros for the game, a music application, the anti-virus & firewall on, voip, downloads, web browser, etc, all running at the same time.

I disagree. I think it is significantly cheaper and faster to develop and design more slower cores then less faster cores. But I completely disagree that there is any physics effects that make more cores MORE efficient.

Remember that the THERMALS argument of 2 cores at 2.5ghz or 1 core at 3ghz is because of the non linear increase of power consumption with core clock speed and voltage. however, do remember that the dual core is nearly twice as many transistors.
A single core design with the same amount of transistors as the dual core @ 2.5 would be even more efficient overall... but requires significant changes from x86.

Can't ignore the fact that the dual core is only slightly slower than the 1 core at 3 GHz in single thread applications but it is much faster than the single core whenever you have more than 1 workloads.

We can't forget that in a normal PC we will have dozens of processes going on and not simply a single program with 1 thread or more than 1 thread.

A dual-core at 2.5 GHz can potentially do significantly more work than a single core at 3 GHz, so it is only normal for it to use more power. How high would that single core needed to be clocked to do the same amount of work? 5 GHz, 6 GHZ?

Additionally you can't forget that these days both Intel and AMD have CPUs with more cores that are clocked as high as the CPUs with less cores, on the same processes.

Performance: single core @2.5ghz @2B transistors > dual core @2.5ghz @2B transistors > single core @ 3ghz @ 1B transistors
Development cost: single core @2.5ghz @2B transistors < dual core @2.5ghz @2B transistors < single core @ 3ghz @ 1B transistors
Manufacturing cost: single core @2.5ghz @2B transistors = dual core @2.5ghz @2B transistors > single core @ 3ghz @ 1B transistors
The above of course assumes that you have a good design, and are not just inflating transistor counts with "more cache" or some such... but use them to the optimal capability (which might be more cache, might be other things, depends on the exact design).

Again, even if all your software is single threaded, most likely than not, you will have various programs running, hence the dual core will be overall better.

Note that both ATI and nVidia have such a design in their GPUs. they call SPs "cores" but they are not actual cores, they are parallel execution units. Just like how a single "core" in x86 has multiple ALU (Arithmatic logic units). The software sees 1 GPU, not hundreds of nvidia cuda cores. And the underlying architecture allows them to be utilized in parallel quite well. This is despite the fact that each SP is identical to every other SP, simply duplicated many times over.
GPUs, which are not hampered by x86, allow amazing "single core" scaling via massively parallel execution units. x86 has very rigid structure, which while it allows a specific amount of multiple execution units per core, doesn't allow flexibly increasing/decreasing easily. instead they duplicates those cores (easiest), with wastage... along with the wastage of the x86 instruction set itself btw.

But that is why both Intel and AMD are interested in integrating GPU type of core in their CPUs - using the most efficient tool for each specific work load.


And it isn't like there haven't been increments in single core performance - icore are faster than K10/Core2, which are faster than K8 and P4.

Simply those improvements aren't enough to keep up with current demand if you are only using a single core.

Would you rather have a single iCore at 5 GHz instead of 2 iCores at 4 GHz in your PC?

I wouldn't.
 

GaiaHunter

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2008
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And yes, I distinctly recall 1000$ AMD CPUs back in the day. I see nothing wrong with it either... charge what you can get. Development is expensive.

The only thing wrong in there was that Intel was still able to sell their slower CPUs for exactly the same 1000$.

That really shows monopolistic market.
 

beginner99

Diamond Member
Jun 2, 2009
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If we didnt get lazy in programing, im sure all of us wouldnt need anything more then a dual core ever in our life.

The only reason why we need all this high tech hardware is to offset the limited programing capabilities of our new generation.

I would say the hardware was first (= cause of this) and because no software company could afford to ignore hardware advancements they had to adjust and use high-level programming langaugues to stay competitive because it is just faster and cheaper.
Windows versions would probably cost like 10k $ if it was done without "copy-paste" (code reuse) and assembly-only.
 

Nemesis 1

Lifer
Dec 30, 2006
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The only thing wrong in there was that Intel was still able to sell their slower CPUs for exactly the same 1000$.

That really shows monopolistic market.


Does it really. I think not . It shows AMD was operating at full capacity. Intel didn't have to lower pricies as AMD could only supply 20&#37; of the market. If BD beats SB I hope . The only price change will be AMD pricies coming up to Intel Pricies . OH wait that won't work . It will be AMD charging more than Intel and Intel not lowering pricies. Thats not being a monopoly its staying the course.

Back at Taltamir . I was speaking of the 7500 series that have over 20 RAS features that only intels Itanic has . I wasn't talking about Itanic. You asked what some features werte we couldn't get from AMD . RAS is 1 ans.
 

GaiaHunter

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2008
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Does it really. I think not . It shows AMD was operating at full capacity. Intel didn't have to lower pricies as AMD could only supply 20&#37; of the market. If BD beats SB I hope . The only price change will be AMD pricies coming up to Intel Pricies . OH wait that won't work . It will be AMD charging more than Intel and Intel not lowering pricies. Thats not being a monopoly its staying the course.

Data showing AMD sold all their processors and couldn't just cope with orders?

And the problems AMD had selling products to high profile retailers was just the product of our collective imagination and Intel let AMD sell and operate without foundries just out of good will.
 

taltamir

Lifer
Mar 21, 2004
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And it isn't like there haven't been increments in single core performance - icore are faster than K10/Core2, which are faster than K8 and P4.

Simply those improvements aren't enough to keep up with current demand if you are only using a single core.

Would you rather have a single iCore at 5 GHz instead of 2 iCores at 4 GHz in your PC?

I wouldn't.

Those are all due to the cost, effort, and time it takes to develop more efficient cores. the dual core is a simple, easy, and inefficient way to throw more transistors at the problem. It results in a faster overall chip because, despite being inefficient, you ARE throwing more transistors at the problem, and it is so much easier to develop then an actual architectural improvement to a single core.

Can't ignore the fact that the dual core is only slightly slower than the 1 core at 3 GHz in single thread applications but it is much faster than the single core whenever you have more than 1 workloads.

I didn't ignore it. I explicitly said as much. I said a dual core @ 2.5GHZ @ 2B transistors is clearly faster overall than a single core @ 3ghz @ 1B transistors. Both of those type CPUs exist.
I simply mentioned a third type, a hypothetical single core @ 2.5ghz @ 2B transistors with an architecture where those are all made good use of.

This is not unfeasible as GPUs have shown that it is entirely possible to make a single core with massive amount of execution resources, and scale that amount freely.

x86 simply does not allow such flexibility in its ALU resources.

Reread what I actually wrote more carefully.
 
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Martimus

Diamond Member
Apr 24, 2007
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Since the first page of this thread was full of personal attacks, and nitpicking, I see no reason to read the next five. I was surprised to see some of the comments I read from some of the posters I respect, but I understand that sometimes you can have a bad day.
 

Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
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Lol, someone trying to estimate the power consumption of a completely hypothetical CPU... Desperate!

And you were trying to base your entire argument on a completely hypothetical (and totally unrealistic) CPU. That isn't desperate at all, is it?
 

GaiaHunter

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2008
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Those are all due to the cost, effort, and time it takes to develop more efficient cores. the dual core is a simple, easy, and inefficient way to throw more transistors at the problem. It results in a faster overall chip because, despite being inefficient, you ARE throwing more transistors at the problem, and it is so much easier to develop then an actual architectural improvement to a single core.

I didn't ignore it. I explicitly said as much. I said a dual core @ 2.5GHZ @ 2B transistors is clearly faster overall than a single core @ 3ghz @ 1B transistors. Both of those type CPUs exist.
I simply mentioned a third type, a hypothetical single core @ 2.5ghz @ 2B transistors with an architecture where those are all made good use of.

But why is a 2B transistors single core at 2.5 GHz better that a 2B 2 cores at 2.5 GHz?

On one hand you praise GPUs architecture because it is very parallel and then bash CPUs when they try to be more parallel?

GPUs can have loads of execution resources because its workloads are parallel by nature.

And again, CPUs have been increasing its single core performance and its resources.

single iCore > single Core2 > single P4

Your point of view would be correct and logical if we were still using p4 and keep adding more p4 cores.

We aren't. Those core2 is a more efficient architecture than p4. And those iCore are better than those core2. So there is the more transistors putting to good use!

But what is better than 1 iCore? 2!

Of course an hypothetical future more efficient architecture will be better that the ones that exist, otherwise it wouldn't be a more efficient architecture.
 

Nemesis 1

Lifer
Dec 30, 2006
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Data showing AMD sold all their processors and couldn't just cope with orders?

And the problems AMD had selling products to high profile retailers was just the product of our collective imagination and Intel let AMD sell and operate without foundries just out of good will.

Ya right. Facts are facts. AMD only had 1 fab. It wasn't a magic fab. It could only produce x amount of wafers in given time thats a fact . Not fantasy land . By the time AMDs second fab came online it was to late . Now that doesn't mean that Intel didn't do anything wrong . Because Intel isn't allowed the same free market AMD has. Intel has to follow monopoly rules . If Intel tried selling Cpus for the same price as AMD does now . It would be another lawsuite . Ignorance is bliss. Stay blissful.
 
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Scali

Banned
Dec 3, 2004
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Because Intel isn't allowed the same free market AMD has. Intel has to follow monopoly rules . If Intel tried selling Cpus for the same price as AMD does now . It would be another lawsuite .

Yes, that's what I thought aswell.
AMD's lawsuits eventually resulted in a billion+ fine. Intel will probably think twice before they sell their CPUs at low prices again.
So in an ironic twist of fate, AMD has killed competition.
 

GaiaHunter

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2008
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Ya right. Facts are facts. AMD only had 1 fab. It wasn't a magic fab. It could only produce x amount of wafers in given time thats a fact . Not fantasy land . By the time AMDs second fab came online it was to late . Now that doesn't mean that Intel didn't do anything wrong . Because Intel isn't allowed the same free market AMD has. Intel has to follow monopoly rules . If Intel tried selling Cpus for the same price as AMD does now . It would be another lawsuite . Ignorance is bliss. Stay blissful.

Man, breaking a monopoly isn't an easy task.

It is a vicious circle.

Why was AMD limited in production capability in the first place? And you still didn't provide data that shows that AMD sold all its production - it doesn't matter if AMD can provide 100&#37; of the market or 30%, if they aren't able to reach 25%.

Why was AMD unable to sell their processors in high profile retailers?

How do you know if more capability would translate in more sales and/or reduced prices by Intel?

What would be the interest of Intel to get rid of AMD? They simply need to keep AMD small enough, otherwise, governments (you know those little things with armies and violence monopoly) would break Intel in 2 (that is if there are still people with balls in governments).

If AMD (or other competitor) is near parity in market share, then stuff like imposing your standards, compilers and extensions is a lot harder - and that is also responsible for some part of the performance delta we see between products.

If you think Intel would sell their processors as low as they sell it now (or as low as AMD) without AMD (or other competition) you are the one in the fantasy land.

Yes, that's what I thought aswell.
AMD's lawsuits eventually resulted in a billion+ fine. Intel will probably think twice before they sell their CPUs at low prices again.
So in an ironic twist of fate, AMD has killed competition.

Same for you:

If you think Intel would sell their processors as low as they sell it now (or as low as AMD) without AMD (or other competition) you are being naive.
 
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Scali

Banned
Dec 3, 2004
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If you think Intel would sell their processors as low as they sell it now (or as low as AMD) without AMD (or other competition) you are being naive.

That's not what I said.
What I said was actually the opposite:
*Because* of AMD, Intel is not lowering prices as far as they could.
Obviously, without AMD there is no need to lower prices into a competitive range. What Intel does then is anyone's guess. See, the problem with no competition is that you have nothing to compare against. How do you know what a good price is for a product? How do you know if they are really pushing their technology to the fullest? There's no way to tell, really.

At least we know *because* of AMD that Intel is NOT pushing, neither with prices nor with technology.
 

GaiaHunter

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2008
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At least we know *because* of AMD that Intel is NOT pushing, neither with prices nor with technology.

Look, what Intel did (it wasn't proved in courts - there was a settlement between before that, although there are other cases in the court) wasn't exactly reducing price to the final consumers - they weren't selling their CPUs at a loss or something like that. What Intel is/was accused was selling their CPUs at a cheaper rate to retailers in exchange of not selling AMD CPUs and/or directly paying to prevent AMD sales.

And people can come with whatever McDonald examples they want - if I want to drink pepsi with my big mac I can.

I doubt AMD is selling their processors at a loss so Intel could well lower the price of their products to the end users.

They won't because of 2 things:

a) their profit is higher;
b) if AMD disappears they will probably be considered a monopoly (even if Intel is one de facto) and split up.

Additionally we have history.

2 examples concerning Intel and/or AMD.

Intel was stuck with netburst for years. AMD released K8 and Intel (was accused of, to be more precisely) used the tactics described above to stall AMD growth (of marketshare and mindshare) and then they gave the biggest technological jump in years with Core2 architecture.

NVIDIA's Geforce 8 had basically no competition. The prices stayed stable (even increased after launch), the architecture lasted for much more time than previous ones. The introduction of the 3850/3870/3870x2, force only minor adjustments.

When the next generation came, GT200, the price premium was quite big. Then competition came and cards lost $100 value in weeks.

Same thing with 5xxx series - no competition for months + production constrains prices increased after release.

The only difference in the situation is that Intel is much much larger than AMD, while AMD/ATi and NVIDIA are much better matched.

And that has all kind of implications - proprietary standards/extensions introduced by Intel? Almost always accepted and implemented by the majority. Now look at NVIDIA trying to pull that - much much harder and time consuming.


Guess the only 2 things you can accuse AMD of is not having a product at this point in time that performs at the same level of Intel and, secondly preventing Intel to be considered a monopoly and probably being split up by existing.
 

taltamir

Lifer
Mar 21, 2004
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But why is a 2B transistors single core at 2.5 GHz better that a 2B 2 cores at 2.5 GHz?
Because the 2 cores one makes it more difficult for software, and includes wasted duplicated logic.

On one hand you praise GPUs architecture because it is very parallel and then bash CPUs when they try to be more parallel?
Because the implementation is completely different.
An x86 core has multiple ALUs, multiple registers... that is "good parallelism". Multiple cores are "bad parallelism"
A GPU has "CUDA cores", that is "good prallelism". A dual GPU card has multiple cores, those are "bad parallelism".
It isn't that parallelism is bad, it is the method in which parallelism is achieved that matters.

Note though, 2x GPUs, while problematic and don't scale perfectly, are indeed an improvement over a single GPU of the same kind. this, however, is because of the thermal limits of placing more computational resources per GPU. A dual, quad, or hex core CPU has enough thermal room, and it is duplicating cores instead of inner core structures (ALUs, registers, etc) with a better architecture. Thats a the limitation of working within an architecture from 1978

And again, CPUs have been increasing its single core performance and its resources.

single iCore > single Core2 > single P4

Your point of view would be correct and logical if we were still using p4 and keep adding more p4 cores.

We aren't. Those core2 is a more efficient architecture than p4. And those iCore are better than those core2. So there is the more transistors putting to good use!

But what is better than 1 iCore? 2!

Of course an hypothetical future more efficient architecture will be better that the ones that exist, otherwise it wouldn't be a more efficient architecture.

This has nothing to do with what I said.
 
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extra

Golden Member
Dec 18, 1999
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RAS: reliability, availability and serviceability. The 7500 have over 20 Ras features only available on Itanic.

On the Intel / AMD thing . If AMD lead in performance you would pay a hugh price for that performance . We all know this . We all Been threw it.

Ahhh the good old FX days, lol. In a way I kinda miss 'em. In a way I really don't. lol. The nice thing now though is that Intel has great offerings at the low end for super cheap (i3 530 ftw)...the bad thing is Intel artificially holds things back because they can get away with it (wantz mah 32nm quad on 1156 damnit..never gonna happen tho).
 

GaiaHunter

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2008
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This has nothing to do with what I said.

I particularly like this.

Your argument is that adding more cores has been hampering the architecture developments.

But we have evidence that while the number of cores has been increasing so does the individual performance of each core - so lets just ignore this little detail...

What holds back the performance is total R&D required for the next step and lack of real competition.

Because the 2 cores one makes it more difficult for software, and includes wasted duplicated logic.

Sincerely I'm not going to continue to debate this point. If you think multiple cores have no merits, if you don't see why servers have been using multiple CPUs for years (even when there were no dual cores) then it is ok. I bet you buy the fastest dual-core available over the quad-cores because the duals can OC higher, right?

But before I go a few thoughts.

How many threads and processes do you have running on your PC at a given point?

Are certain applications faster with multiple cores or not?

Why is ok to expect hardware companies to spend hundreds of millions in R&D but software companies aren't supposed to spend more/hire better programmers/become more efficient?

Where is the proof that more cores has been inhibiting the development of faster/more efficient architectures?
 
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