multiple Layer 2 switches having brown outs, unidentified network, dhcp failures, 169 addresses etc

[JoeBleed]

no idea on the dell warranty. do the Cisco not require cards for stacking in the back? That is something we had to do with the HP. you need two per switch. Figured they were all like that. the old 10 Mbit hubs we had when i started were like that too. Baystack i think was the brand. you'll form a loop essentially with the cables in the back.

 

[markm75]

no idea on the dell warranty. do the Cisco not require cards for stacking in the back? That is something we had to do with the HP. you need two per switch. Figured they were all like that. the old 10 Mbit hubs we had when i started were like that too. Baystack i think was the brand. you'll form a loop essentially with the cables in the back.

I think the ciscos require 2 port stacking modules and possibly i'd need 7 of them at $220 each (unsure on quantity, but price is firm), includes a 0.5m cable (probably too short on some links).

For the hp 2920.. the rep seemed to indicate only needing one of the two port modules per 4 switches ($220 refurb cost lus cables at $78 each on cables).. is this not accurate? Do we need 4 for the 4 in the stack and 3 in the 3 stack (max of 4 switches in one stack)

At this point, i think it boils down to the HP 2920 vs the 2960-x.. i think the module cost on the 2960-x might put it out of range (if 7 of these are needed as opposed to only needing 2 modules for the hp)?

EDIT: i think 7 modules are needed with the HP OR with the Cisco.. this makes the HP total cost refurbished around $7303 (if all 7 are stacked and tethered to the 3 POE switches).. or the Cisco total cost around $9128 if all 7 are stacked again

 

[JoeBleed]

With the HP, and i would imagine the Cisco, you can use any of the existing ports to create a stack if i'm remembering right. The cards in the back (cx4 for hp) are supposed to be higher bandwidth. Hell if i can remember what speed though. Nor do i remember exactly why the card has two ports. I think it's for cable path failure protection. but you need two cards in the back of each switch. these are meant to form a local IRF stack. I have a picture from a document i found somewhere when we were planning to replace our old SMC switches. I don't know how to post it with out putting it on the web somewhere first. and with picassa gone, i haven't found a new place to use. But basically you form a loop in a daisy chain fashion. start with switch 1(SW1) and card in slot 1(SL1). Cable SW1/SL1 to SW2/SL2 then SW2/SL1 to SW3/SL2 then SW3/SL1 back to SW1/SL2. Hopefully i typed that right and you can follow it with out the picture.


You may want to consider no focusing on forming one large stack. I don't have the experience to say what kind of issues you might hit, but it could be more of an issue than you need/want to deal with. You could take a two or three switch stack. configure it how you want it with all the vlans, routing, and such. then connect the other switches to the appropriately configured ports. Still wouldn't hurt to work towards having the same brand/model switches, but this might help spread the finical burden over a few months. But it really depends on how demanding your devices are and where they plug in. With it all being in the same rack, you may have to move some switches around to fall within the cable lengths. Not sure about the Ciscos.

These PoE switches you're using for VoIP phones. are you planning on keeping them and on a separate vlan or are you looking at getting PoE switches and end up mixing in the VoIP phones on your regular switches? Are they on a separate vlan now?

Edit: the cx4 link is 12Gb/s according to a spec sheet i found. I also found this blog. haven't read the whole thing, but it has a picture to show the loop. not as good as the one i have, but. http://allhpnetworking.blogspot.com/2010/10/hp-networking-series-example.html

 

[markm75]

I'm 90% sure, based on what hp told me, you have to use the stacking modules (2 port cards in each switch).. unsure though what their link speed is..

I was also thinking of cutting back on the stacked size, maybe 3-4 max for now, hold off on those other 3-4 2 port cards, save $250 or more each.
In terms of the poe, i now decided to opt to get two 48 port poe hp 2920's (or 2930F or 2930M unsure).. and add them to the mix. So 5 switches non poe and 2 extra that are and then patch the machine network ports to the phones that have the passthrough and save 72 ports that were strictly phone before, making them both lan/ip phones

I mistakingly thought with true stackable switches you didnt have to multi home server connections to all in the stack, turns out you do.. i may hold off doing this for now.. too much at once.

I'm just trying to grasp the differences between the 2920 and the 30F and M..

I did just discover that for the 2930F, no stacking modules are needed (speeds up to 40 gbps), a bonus.. the 2930 still needs the modules.
With the 2930F you have to stack via ports on the front of the switch either 10gb or 1gb ports (unsure what type of cable the 10gb would use there)..

The 2930F stacks via software not hardware like the 2930 and 2920. I guess the 2930F doesnt have open module ability to add later, so you purchase the uplink version you want off the bat, so 1gb version, you are stuck with that.

The 2930M can stack 9, the 2920/30 can only stack 4 at once.. i guess maybe the 2930M is better in that its hardware stacking and can potentially do more and is more flexible.

I think maybe these are the major differences.

 

[Genx87]

My experience is for the 2910 and 2920 the stacking module is required if you want to stack.

 

[thecoolnessrune]

I may be completely off base here missing some important piece of conversation, but is there any reason for considering these over say, a 3750E? A Cisco 3750E with an IP Services license, and the high range 1,150 Watt power supplies for full POE Support is about $800 per switch, which seems in track with some of the other switches you're looking at. That's in 48 port flavor with 10Gb uplinks, and Stackwise Plus Stacking. Stackwise Plus supports 9 switches in a stack. A pair of stacking cables provides 32Gbps of bi-directional bandwidth.

Example: https://www.cablesandkits.com/cisco-3750-series-48-port-poe-switch-wsc3750e48pdef-p-7393.html

 

[JoeBleed]

I see the 2920 does indeed only support one stacking card. they use the two ports on the one card to form the loop. But you do get options for 2 10Gb/s cards in the back if you need to mount switches elsewhere in the building. If you have the notion of stacking for redundancy and the price isn't too much different, get the ones that use the cards instead of the standard ports. the 2920 from what i read you can do a daisy chain or ring/loop. the ring/loop gives you the redundancy with only the extra cost of one more cable to go from the top switch to the bottom. That is if you go with the switches with the cards. You can always work to make your servers redundant later with already having the core done or capable of being done when the money is available.

One other thing i'd suggest, not sure where you'd find it other than luck searching docs and google. Make sure you can expand your core without having to reconfigure everything from the ground up. I have no idea what adding one to the bottom of the stack would require.

for the PoE and VoIP, we use hybrid ports with the voice vlan and standard data vlan. So one cable from the patch panel/switch to the office plugs into the phone and the phone has a built in 1Gb/s switch so the desktop or docking station gets plugged into the phone. the computer see's the default vlan and the phone sees the voice vlan or vlan tagging. I'm really not sure how the phone system is setup. It is very handy to save ports, but part of me still isn't very fond of it.

 

[markm75]

I may be completely off base here missing some important piece of conversation, but is there any reason for considering these over say, a 3750E? A Cisco 3750E with an IP Services license, and the high range 1,150 Watt power supplies for full POE Support is about $800 per switch, which seems in track with some of the other switches you're looking at. That's in 48 port flavor with 10Gb uplinks, and Stackwise Plus Stacking. Stackwise Plus supports 9 switches in a stack. A pair of stacking cables provides 32Gbps of bi-directional bandwidth.

Example: https://www.cablesandkits.com/cisco-3750-series-48-port-poe-switch-wsc3750e48pdef-p-7393.html

This looks like an intriguing option being as its seems like its $899 or so refurb price and is also poe? Not sure what the catch is? How does this compare to the stacking abilities of the 2920, 2930M or maybe the 5406R-zl2 which has 144 ports and i think you can stack 2 at a time with these modular devices? (just discovered these)

With that cisco.. i assume you are limited to 10gbit stacking ports? Which is probably fine for us.. does that mean they need 10gbit stacking modules? (i think i saw they were only $49?), brings the price way down on all this if so. Unsure how old this tech is compared to the hp options or the dell 6248 even. Ill have to look further later on..

 

[markm75]

I see the 2920 does indeed only support one stacking card. they use the two ports on the one card to form the loop. But you do get options for 2 10Gb/s cards in the back if you need to mount switches elsewhere in the building. If you have the notion of stacking for redundancy and the price isn't too much different, get the ones that use the cards instead of the standard ports. the 2920 from what i read you can do a daisy chain or ring/loop. the ring/loop gives you the redundancy with only the extra cost of one more cable to go from the top switch to the bottom. That is if you go with the switches with the cards. You can always work to make your servers redundant later with already having the core done or capable of being done when the money is available.

One other thing i'd suggest, not sure where you'd find it other than luck searching docs and google. Make sure you can expand your core without having to reconfigure everything from the ground up. I have no idea what adding one to the bottom of the stack would require.

for the PoE and VoIP, we use hybrid ports with the voice vlan and standard data vlan. So one cable from the patch panel/switch to the office plugs into the phone and the phone has a built in 1Gb/s switch so the desktop or docking station gets plugged into the phone. the computer see's the default vlan and the phone sees the voice vlan or vlan tagging. I'm really not sure how the phone system is setup. It is very handy to save ports, but part of me still isn't very fond of it.

I think with most of the hp options the whole thing has to go offline to expand, though i'm not sure about rebuilding the whole config.. havent dove that far just yet.. id probably just covert the 3 that werent in a stack into a second stack though, well with the 2920, the only real option since its limited to 4.

 

[thecoolnessrune]

This looks like an intriguing option being as its seems like its $899 or so refurb price and is also poe? Not sure what the catch is? How does this compare to the stacking abilities of the 2920, 2930M or maybe the 5406R-zl2 which has 144 ports and i think you can stack 2 at a time with these modular devices? (just discovered these)

With that cisco.. i assume you are limited to 10gbit stacking ports? Which is probably fine for us.. does that mean they need 10gbit stacking modules? (i think i saw they were only $49?), brings the price way down on all this if so. Unsure how old this tech is compared to the hp options or the dell 6248 even. Ill have to look further later on..

I mentioned some of it in my post. The stack ports are on the back and come with every 3750E. A pair of ports (you would connect all the ports into a loop) has a 32Gb/s bi-directional bandwidth. The 10Gb/s X2 Ports on the front of the switch are for whatever you want. They're fully Layer 3 capable ethernet ports. I use them in my home environment to connect the front of the house to the back of the house (a front room 3560E switch connects via the 2 10gb/s links to a 3750E switch stack in the back. The switch stack in the back uses the 32Gb/s bi-directional stack ports to exchange traffic.)

Yes, the example I mentioned is the top PoE model with a 1,150 watt power supply capable of supplying 15.4W of PoE power to all 48 ports.

Keep in mind that Aruba switch is an awesome, but modern switch. That price tag you're looking at is for an empty chassis with no power supplies or switch modules. Like a Catalyst 4500E series, you can get the chassis without too much hassle for cost, but with that Aruba switch you'll spend quite a bit for the Chassis, then about $500 per power Supply, then between $500 to $1,000 per switch module you get depending on the features.

 

[JoeBleed]

Yes, the example I mentioned is the top PoE model with a 1,150 watt power supply capable of supplying 15.4W of PoE power to all 48 ports.

Keep in mind that Aruba switch is an awesome, but modern switch. That price tag you're looking at is for an empty chassis with no power supplies or switch modules. Like a Catalyst 4500E series, you can get the chassis without too much hassle for cost, but with that Aruba switch you'll spend quite a bit for the Chassis, then about $500 per power Supply, then between $500 to $1,000 per switch module you get depending on the features.

This brings up a good point. the OP is already using PoE. is it really PoE or PoE+? I didn't think to ask about that before, but when thecoolnessrune pointed out the watt output of that switch it made me think of it.

When we got our HP switches, they were around $1,800 or so each. don't remember exactly. 48 port PoE+. It is something else that needs to be considered when trying to pick a switch. There are a lot of options and it can get confusing. (Edit: the cost was for the base switch with included power supply. the stacking cards, cables, and gbics were extra. we are not using the backup power supply option)

One other thing to consider. the ones we have, and i think one or two of the HP/aruba switches you listed have/had a hard limit on the number of static routes you can setup. ours were originally only 32. That was over looked and almost bit us in the ass. Fortunately, in a firmware update they release around that time, they expanded it. 128 routes i think.

 

[markm75]

I mentioned some of it in my post. The stack ports are on the back and come with every 3750E. A pair of ports (you would connect all the ports into a loop) has a 32Gb/s bi-directional bandwidth. The 10Gb/s X2 Ports on the front of the switch are for whatever you want. They're fully Layer 3 capable ethernet ports. I use them in my home environment to connect the front of the house to the back of the house (a front room 3560E switch connects via the 2 10gb/s links to a 3750E switch stack in the back. The switch stack in the back uses the 32Gb/s bi-directional stack ports to exchange traffic.)

Yes, the example I mentioned is the top PoE model with a 1,150 watt power supply capable of supplying 15.4W of PoE power to all 48 ports.

Keep in mind that Aruba switch is an awesome, but modern switch. That price tag you're looking at is for an empty chassis with no power supplies or switch modules. Like a Catalyst 4500E series, you can get the chassis without too much hassle for cost, but with that Aruba switch you'll spend quite a bit for the Chassis, then about $500 per power Supply, then between $500 to $1,000 per switch module you get depending on the features.

I assume that means the entire switch group/stack is 32 Gb/s, still not bad.. the procurve 2920 series with its 10 gb/s card after adding 4 switches becomes 40 Gb/s as well.

I'm alittle concerned with the age of the cisco.. it appears it dates back to 2006.. making it fairly old tech, definitely end of life according to the website.. i'd like to have the company invest in something thats going to last about 5 years minimum..

brings me to a question on refurbs.. some say dont buy refurbs, but for these lifetime warranty switches, i dont see why not, even for a small business? Otherwise, we really cant get rid of the 7 flaky switches we currently have and it creates another potential disaster later if i try to loop in the old tech with the new tech.

Edit: actually the 2930F pricing i had found ( have another thread with strictly the hps and a dell comparing here) seem to point to the pricing of the 2930F being "new" very similar in cost to that of the 2920 refurb pricing (maybe slightly higher cost but all new)

 

[thecoolnessrune]

This brings up a good point. the OP is already using PoE. is it really PoE or PoE+? I didn't think to ask about that before, but when thecoolnessrune pointed out the watt output of that switch it made me think of it.

When we got our HP switches, they were around $1,800 or so each. don't remember exactly. 48 port PoE+. It is something else that needs to be considered when trying to pick a switch. There are a lot of options and it can get confusing. (Edit: the cost was for the base switch with included power supply. the stacking cards, cables, and gbics were extra. we are not using the backup power supply option)

One other thing to consider. the ones we have, and i think one or two of the HP/aruba switches you listed have/had a hard limit on the number of static routes you can setup. ours were originally only 32. That was over looked and almost bit us in the ass. Fortunately, in a firmware update they release around that time, they expanded it. 128 routes i think.

JoeBleed makes a good point between PoE and PoE+. If you're doing 15 Watt PoE, then a highly buffed Access Switch (with 1100-1200 watt power supply) can do it across all 48 Ports. If you're talking about PoE+ or UPOE though, there's almost no chances that you'll find an Access switch that can do full power across all 48 ports. You'd need a Modular switch with large power supplies and a high power line cards to keep up with that. The other strategy would be to get multiple Access switches in a stack, and split your PoE load and your general Access load across the switches so that each switch takes a portion of the total network's PoE load, but stays under the individual switch level PoE limit.

 

[markm75]

This brings up a good point. the OP is already using PoE. is it really PoE or PoE+? I didn't think to ask about that before, but when thecoolnessrune pointed out the watt output of that switch it made me think of it.

When we got our HP switches, they were around $1,800 or so each. don't remember exactly. 48 port PoE+. It is something else that needs to be considered when trying to pick a switch. There are a lot of options and it can get confusing. (Edit: the cost was for the base switch with included power supply. the stacking cards, cables, and gbics were extra. we are not using the backup power supply option)

One other thing to consider. the ones we have, and i think one or two of the HP/aruba switches you listed have/had a hard limit on the number of static routes you can setup. ours were originally only 32. That was over looked and almost bit us in the ass. Fortunately, in a firmware update they release around that time, they expanded it. 128 routes i think.

The POE switches we have right now are the NETGEAR ProSAFE 24-Port Fast Ethernet PoE Smart Managed Switch 192w, I just looked at the difference between POE/POE+, appears around 15 watt vs 25 watt per port.. dont think it matters with our current avaya ip office 500 and the 5610sw phones (i think the netgear is 8 watts per port, i cant find a spec to show the power requirement on these phones, i assume around that or they wouldnt work).

 

[markm75]

JoeBleed makes a good point between PoE and PoE+. If you're doing 15 Watt PoE, then a highly buffed Access Switch (with 1100-1200 watt power supply) can do it across all 48 Ports. If you're talking about PoE+ or UPOE though, there's almost no chances that you'll find an Access switch that can do full power across all 48 ports. You'd need a Modular switch with large power supplies and a high power line cards to keep up with that. The other strategy would be to get multiple Access switches in a stack, and split your PoE load and your general Access load across the switches so that each switch takes a portion of the total network's PoE load, but stays under the individual switch level PoE limit.

I guess its something to consider if we would change phone systems in the next 5-7 years? I assume most POE devices we would be talking about would be phones.. so there are some that need 15 watts? The avaya we have surely doesnt..

Forgive me, but when you say "access switch" what is meant there.. generic term ?

The hp 2920 lists as POE+.. are you saying not all poe is created equal, so this switch wouldnt distribute 15 watts per port?
https://www.allhdd.com/networking/s...-ports-managed-desktop.-new-bulk-pack.-clone/

There is also the 2930F JL262A with its POE+
https://www.princetechnology.net/pr...poe-ethernet-ports-4-gigabit-sfp-uplink-ports

My original intention was to get two of the 2920 POE models.. and 2 of the 2920 regular ones, to form that 4 switch stack.. then buy 3 other 2920 non poe regular ones for the remainder (not stacked for now).

I also found out that you can add/remove from the stack without having to take down the whole stack.. the only time it goes down is on a firmware update.

 

[Genx87]

What are you doing that requires 15 watt\port?????

It is a nice budget but realistically most phones sit in the 3-6 watt range. We use Shoretel 485s with the nice color LCD screen and they consume a tad over 3 watts per phone.

 

[markm75]

What are you doing that requires 15 watt\port?????

It is a nice budget but realistically most phones sit in the 3-6 watt range. We use Shoretel 485s with the nice color LCD screen and they consume a tad over 3 watts per phone.

Nothing here that requires that.. i figured my avayas are in the 8 watt per port max range.. curious what needs exist for POE+ and the higher wattage too is what i meant.

 

[thecoolnessrune]

I guess its something to consider if we would change phone systems in the next 5-7 years? I assume most POE devices we would be talking about would be phones.. so there are some that need 15 watts? The avaya we have surely doesnt..

Forgive me, but when you say "access switch" what is meant there.. generic term ?

The hp 2920 lists as POE+.. are you saying not all poe is created equal, so this switch wouldnt distribute 15 watts per port?
https://www.allhdd.com/networking/s...-ports-managed-desktop.-new-bulk-pack.-clone/

There is also the 2930F JL262A with its POE+
https://www.princetechnology.net/pr...poe-ethernet-ports-4-gigabit-sfp-uplink-ports

My original intention was to get two of the 2920 POE models.. and 2 of the 2920 regular ones, to form that 4 switch stack.. then buy 3 other 2920 non poe regular ones for the remainder (not stacked for now).

I also found out that you can add/remove from the stack without having to take down the whole stack.. the only time it goes down is on a firmware update.

So, PoE is a standard, and it's certainly equal, but there's different factors at play that can vary from switch to switch.

PoE - 15.5 Watts down a port. 802.3af standard
PoE+ - 25.5 Watts down a port. 802.3at standard
UPOE - 60 Watts down a port. Cisco Proprietary. If you needed to use it, you'd know about it. So don't worry about it.

If your PoE needs are just desk phones, you can be almost 100% confident that these are PoE devices. They simply don't use that much power. PoE+ is mostly used for Access points, as modern managed AP's can definitely use more than 15 watts.

So the standard defines the power that can go down a port. The second factor that affects it is your PoE budget. That's how much power your switch can allocate for a PoE. Note that in the vast majority of cases, simply activating a port to a certain standard, and using it, removes that standard's power amount from the PoE budget. For instance, an IP Phone might only use 5-8 Watts, but the switch will remove the PoE standard's 15 Watts from the available PoE budget. That is to prevent over-subscription.

So say you have 20 phones on a 48 port switch.

Real life power usage: About 100 watts.
Budgeted Power Usage: 300 watts

In the above scenario, at stock settings, your Netgear would be able to realistically run the workload, but your power budget allocation would be far exceeded.

Fortunately, many devices offer Device "class" systems for the port that give you more granular control. This lets you set the class of the port for say, a 7 watt class. This allows the switch to measure its power budget with further granularity. For instance, if you set all the ports as 7 watt class devices, the power budget shrinks by half to only 150 watts. Now the switch will power all of the ports.

The J9729A you linked to first comes with a 370 Watt PoE power budget. That's below the 720 watts needed to provide a full 15 watts of power to every port on the switch. But if you use device classes (which I assume HP Supports), you could bring that need down to about 360 watts, which would be enough to put an IP phone on every port. HP makes a related switch referred to as the J9836A which is a nearly identical switch with twice the power supply output, allowing 740 watts of PoE power budget, which is enough to give full 15 Watt PoE to every port on the switch.

The JL262A comes with the same 370 watt PoE power budget.

HP 2920 switches stack just like Cisco Stackwise Plus era switches stack. Both use 2 links for bi-directional bandwidth. The difference is that Cisco uses large, broad proprietary cables that manage 16Gb/s per link. HP is using 2 SFF-8644 cables (Same link as SAS 12G and U.2) to make their link at 20Gb/s per link. Ironically, Cisco's old Stackwise Plus cables are dirt cheap even new, while mini-SAS HD cables are still relatively pricey, *and* you still have to buy the stacking modules.

The question of End Of Life / Pre-Owned / New is all something that should be carefully discussed with various business stakeholders. End of Life equipment is something that has little to no support available, and hence is why it's so affordable. Refurbished equipment might have a better warranty, and might be eligible for support contracts so that you can get updates (does your business plan to get support contracts)? Keep in mind that if you're not shopping to have the switch brought under a support contract, the only warranty you're getting is likely from the refurbisher, and chances are you will have no access to updates or support without a support contract. New is obviously the best way to stay current, it but sounds far outside your company's willing budget.

 

[markm75]

So, PoE is a standard, and it's certainly equal, but there's different factors at play that can vary from switch to switch.

PoE - 15.5 Watts down a port. 802.3af standard
PoE+ - 25.5 Watts down a port. 802.3at standard
UPOE - 60 Watts down a port. Cisco Proprietary. If you needed to use it, you'd know about it. So don't worry about it.

If your PoE needs are just desk phones, you can be almost 100% confident that these are PoE devices. They simply don't use that much power. PoE+ is mostly used for Access points, as modern managed AP's can definitely use more than 15 watts.

The question of End Of Life / Pre-Owned / New is all something that should be carefully discussed with various business stakeholders. End of Life equipment is something that has little to no support available, and hence is why it's so affordable. Refurbished equipment might have a better warranty, and might be eligible for support contracts so that you can get updates (does your business plan to get support contracts)? Keep in mind that if you're not shopping to have the switch brought under a support contract, the only warranty you're getting is likely from the refurbisher, and chances are you will have no access to updates or support without a support contract. New is obviously the best way to stay current, it but sounds far outside your company's willing budget.

Sounds as if we should be fine with any POE offering from these choices then, maybe with some tweaks on the hardware configuration interface.

When i spoke to hp they said that they offer the lifetime warranty ability on any refurb no matter where its bought from.. thats why i havent blinked too much at the idea of a refurb.. but yes support could be an issue.. we do buy support contracts for our sonicwall email security 300 device (still, and its old).. i'm assuming if an hp product i have to contact hp to find out how much a contract would be, if we decide we want it. Ultimately though, as long as i can just email support for generic questions, assuming they dont charge, then maybe a contract isnt needed.

Now its probably a matter of just picking one of these solutions and going with it (still leaning towards the 2920s, assuming all the vendors of refurbs have enough stock, its looking like $7155 before any cables (but with 4 stackig modules, refurb price).. vs the 2930Fs which would ring in aroiund $7975, but all 7 could be stacked from the start and i think that was new pricing (the $995 regular and $1500 POE).. this site allhd seems to have them fairly cheap too, one lists bulk pack (unsure what that implies)

dont know much about these vendors,allhd and princetechnology or how it could be this cheap compared to say CDW at $3300 (new) compared to $995.. if the 2930F, question also becomes, do i stack all 7 in one, or maybe its better to go with 4 and 3.. and for this linked 2930F, unsure if the uplink connection is 1gb or 10gb for the stacking (since it uses standard cabling), i think its 10, so does this mean with 4 in a group its 40 gbps throughput.

 

[thecoolnessrune]

Sounds as if we should be fine with any POE offering from these choices then, maybe with some tweaks on the hardware configuration interface.

When i spoke to hp they said that they offer the lifetime warranty ability on any refurb no matter where its bought from.. thats why i havent blinked too much at the idea of a refurb.. but yes support could be an issue.. we do buy support contracts for our sonicwall email security 300 device (still, and its old).. i'm assuming if an hp product i have to contact hp to find out how much a contract would be, if we decide we want it. Ultimately though, as long as i can just email support for generic questions, assuming they dont charge, then maybe a contract isnt needed.

Now its probably a matter of just picking one of these solutions and going with it (still leaning towards the 2920s, assuming all the vendors of refurbs have enough stock, its looking like $7155 before any cables (but with 4 stackig modules, refurb price).. vs the 2930Fs which would ring in aroiund $7975, but all 7 could be stacked from the start and i think that was new pricing (the $995 regular and $1500 POE).. this site allhd seems to have them fairly cheap too, one lists bulk pack (unsure what that implies)

dont know much about these vendors,allhd and princetechnology or how it could be this cheap compared to say CDW at $3300 (new) compared to $995.. if the 2930F, question also becomes, do i stack all 7 in one, or maybe its better to go with 4 and 3.. and for this linked 2930F, unsure if the uplink connection is 1gb or 10gb for the stacking (since it uses standard cabling), i think its 10, so does this mean with 4 in a group its 40 gbps throughput.

Something very important to note is the difference between Warranty and Support. HPE has a great deal by offering a Lifetime Warranty for equipment. Technically, it's only to the original owner as of about 2015, but I haven't seen anyone get denied when they submitted claim paperwork. This covers hardware malfunctions of the switch.

Support is another. Both Cisco and HPE only offer Support Contracts on Certified Refurbished equipment. That basically means buying straight from them, or through a recognized partner selling model numbers that have been distinctly certified refurbished (for Cisco, RF is appended to the end of the model). Cisco offers Certification for refurbished items that don't qualify, but it is very expensive and you have to re-purchase the software licenses. It can be 90% of the price of new equipment to buy unqualified used, and then get it re-certified.

So you would need to adjust your prices if you plan to get support contracts, because neither Cisco nor HPE will let you get one for a device bought off of allhd, or other company selling non-recertified gear.

As for stacking the 2930F, it uses VSF to stack via Ethernet ports. In a ring topology, this ends up in the exact same design as dedicated ports. You end up with 2Gb stacking bandwidth bi-directional with 1gb ports, 20Gb with 10Gb ports, and 80Gb with 40Gb ports. Stackwise Plus and HP Ring stacking does not expand bandwidth as the number of switches expand, because all switches have the exact same ingress and egress bandwidth. The only thing that changes in the domain in which you don't consume bandwidth (for instance, if traffic goes simultaneously from switch 1 to 2, and switch 3 to 4, then each switch has the full bandwidth of its portion of the link available. But if traffic goes simultaneously from switch 1 to switch 3, and switch 2 to switch 4, then bandwidth will find its bottleneck at the link between switch 2 and 3, and the traffic for all the switches will need to cross that link). That's why for all practicality, the effective bandwidth of a stack in a ring topology is limited to the bandwidth of any pair of segments.

 

[markm75]

Something very important to note is the difference between Warranty and Support. HPE has a great deal by offering a Lifetime Warranty for equipment. Technically, it's only to the original owner as of about 2015, but I haven't seen anyone get denied when they submitted claim paperwork. This covers hardware malfunctions of the switch.

Support is another. Both Cisco and HPE only offer Support Contracts on Certified Refurbished equipment. That basically means buying straight from them, or through a recognized partner selling model numbers that have been distinctly certified refurbished (for Cisco, RF is appended to the end of the model). Cisco offers Certification for refurbished items that don't qualify, but it is very expensive and you have to re-purchase the software licenses. It can be 90% of the price of new equipment to buy unqualified used, and then get it re-certified.

So you would need to adjust your prices if you plan to get support contracts, because neither Cisco nor HPE will let you get one for a device bought off of allhd, or other company selling non-recertified gear.

As for stacking the 2930F, it uses VSF to stack via Ethernet ports. In a ring topology, this ends up in the exact same design as dedicated ports. You end up with 2Gb stacking bandwidth bi-directional with 1gb ports, 20Gb with 10Gb ports, and 80Gb with 40Gb ports. Stackwise Plus and HP Ring stacking does not expand bandwidth as the number of switches expand, because all switches have the exact same ingress and egress bandwidth. The only thing that changes in the domain in which you don't consume bandwidth (for instance, if traffic goes simultaneously from switch 1 to 2, and switch 3 to 4, then each switch has the full bandwidth of its portion of the link available. But if traffic goes simultaneously from switch 1 to switch 3, and switch 2 to switch 4, then bandwidth will find its bottleneck at the link between switch 2 and 3, and the traffic for all the switches will need to cross that link). That's why for all practicality, the effective bandwidth of a stack in a ring topology is limited to the bandwidth of any pair of segments.

Noted on the recertified support contract.. that may change things (or maybe not, unsure yet).. i'd assume a CDW "recert" refurb will be much higher in cost than one of those other two sites.

On the 2930F, then i guess its a matter of determining if that will be enough bandwidth for our organization between switches.. i'd assume it would be plenty, being as we have 35 or so domain users, about 4 physical servers that are most active, 3 of which are HyperV with about 15 or so VM's on each box.. we dont suck up a ton of bandwidth and this solution would still be more than what we have now i think (currently fiber connections between switches, unsure which speed they are on these old switches).

 

[thecoolnessrune]

It doesn't hurt to reach out to an Account Manager for a quote, but In production, Support eligible hardware almost always tends to be expensive when it's Cisco. You can also try HPE Inventory Today for a market of used HPE Networking Equipment that's certified refurbished.

 

[markm75]

It doesn't hurt to reach out to an Account Manager for a quote, but In production, Support eligible hardware almost always tends to be expensive when it's Cisco. You can also try HPE Inventory Today for a market of used HPE Networking Equipment that's certified refurbished.

Spoke to CDW reps today..

They recommended going with 2530's as the other "three" switches that arent stacked (unless i decide i want to stack them later, in which case they need be 2920s).. downside is that they are limited to 1gb uplinks i think (maybe ok, unsure)..
Alternatively I could go with a 2540 which supports 10gbit..

so it would become 2920's x 4 in a core stacked and then two 2530 POE + one 2530 non poe to fill the need.. I may also be able to knock one switch off this list bringing it to 6 total needed (4 + 2).

edit: not sure why he said the 2930's couldnt do 10gbit, seems there is an optional module or similar for these too

Appears you can stack a 2930 virtually, at least to manage all 3 or 2 of these in one ip address, which is nice (not 100% sure on that)


HP 2530
**optional 10gb models or modules? (SFP+)
-382 watt power
-can stack virtually
J9855A 48 port NON POE + 2SFP+ (avg price new is $945?)
J9853A 48 port POE+ 2SFP+ (avg price new is $1500?)

J9781A 48 port NON POE, 1gbit uplink? (avg price new is $799)
J9778A 48 port POE+, 1gbit uplink? (avg price new is $1500)

HP 2540
-listed as "ioT ready, cloud manageable"
-virtual stack ability?
JL355A 48 port 4SFP+ (avg price new is $2300?)
JL357A 48 port POE 4SFP+ 370 watt (avg price new is $2800?)

 

[JoeBleed]

your stacking or trunking speeds between switches is important pending your workload/demand. 1Gb/s might be fine for some, but you probably want faster for at least a few switches where you can consolidate your heavy usage devices. Be it via dedicated stacking cards or 10Gb/s gbic trunks. One of our locations in the building i'm in required two switches in one area, but the load was small and not critical so we opted to just simply patch cable two switches together to keep from having to buy more stacking cards/cables or an extra two gpics. 1Gb/s is fine fir that location.

It's something to consider for making your choice. I still don't think i'd focus so heavily on making all of them into one big stack. just maybe 3 or 4. I would think given your existing port availability, you'd be able to get all of your heavy/demanding loads on the stack. And if your stack switches support 10Gb/s gbics ontop of separate stacking cards, you have a great way to connect to your other, non stacked switches.

 

[markm75]

your stacking or trunking speeds between switches is important pending your workload/demand. 1Gb/s might be fine for some, but you probably want faster for at least a few switches where you can consolidate your heavy usage devices. Be it via dedicated stacking cards or 10Gb/s gbic trunks. One of our locations in the building i'm in required two switches in one area, but the load was small and not critical so we opted to just simply patch cable two switches together to keep from having to buy more stacking cards/cables or an extra two gpics. 1Gb/s is fine fir that location.

It's something to consider for making your choice. I still don't think i'd focus so heavily on making all of them into one big stack. just maybe 3 or 4. I would think given your existing port availability, you'd be able to get all of your heavy/demanding loads on the stack. And if your stack switches support 10Gb/s gbics ontop of separate stacking cards, you have a great way to connect to your other, non stacked switches.

Just a little background didnt mention.. over the years here i've primarily been on the software end of things (mcse), so digging back into the networking again has taken a little time, but getitng there (appreciate all the help)...

I'm curious.. what tools do you use to determine if the load on the switches is too much or moving fast enough? Are you relying on windows performance counters.. doing large file size transfers machine to machine (switch to switch) and comparing same switch with switch to switch MB/sec windows readings, or some other method.. i think i may want to test this once i have the equipment in place. Or test now and compare (i use qcheck and performance endpoints to do basic throughput testing to give me an idea if a port has been acting up during this mess).

This makes me wonder if putting the server and gateway connections on the outside of the stack is best, or if maybe i should flip it.. put 100 connections of servers into the 4 switch stack instead.. and on the outside move a bunch of workstations onto some of those.

I also need to verify these ip office phones can pass gigabit, cause if they cant, i need to add 72 ports max (and i need a final better count on actual ports used).

I'm not familiar with the 10gb terminology as of yet.. i believe the cdw rep mentioned DAC modules as one route for the 2530's or 2540s? They are working up numbers and tracking down "certified refurbs" which may take a few days so i can then mix and match ideas.

The cdw rep seemed to think some of these "off" sites that sell "new" or even refurb for cheap might not be "real" hp units but clones of some kind.. not sure if this is accurate or not. I also looked at a few contract examples for 1 year of 24/7 support, often they are super pricey and appear per switch, so we probably wont get that, but i'd assume on a new or cert. refurb product i can at least get email support and of course talk to hp via forum posts.

Also, didnt really want to keep flip flopping but the comparable here i think is indeed where i first looked .. the cisco 2960x models.. i tend to lean towards hp since i have some experience and none with cisco, but there may also be a layer2 cisco that could be paired with a 2960 stack to compare pricing (have my cdw rep doing a comparable just to see)..

So many options.. it can get mind blowing after awhile and over engineering something that doesnt need to be that complicated.. i tend to be good at that part haha