Ms to cripple Open GL in Longhorn!

[Makaveli]

http://www.opengl.org/
the link directly to the article isn't working, but its on the front page of the site.

So basically if this happens, would this mean the end of Nvidia's OpenGL advantage?

Discuss?

 

[Pabster]

Longhorn is major suckage.

 

[Schadenfroh]

In practice this means for OpenGL under Aeroglass:

* OpenGL performance will be significantly reduced - perhaps as much as 50%
* OpenGL on Windows will be fixed at a vanilla version of OpenGL 1.4
* No extensions will be possible to expose future hardware innovations

Is Aeroglass just the new windows desktop? This should not affect games and other applications, should it?

 

[Makaveli]

that is a good question I would like to know that answer myself.
Since Longhord will be using dx9 how will it run games and how will it affect them aswell. since i'm assuming it will handle it differently than WinXP.

 

[JackBurton]

The more news I hear about Vista, the more I think I need to be brushing up on my Linux skills.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: JackBurton
The more news I hear about Vista, the more I think I need to be brushing up on my Linux skills.

..and Linux needs to become more User friendly especially for Installing Hardware/Software.

 

[AlucardX]

i think this news snippet is being blown out of proporation.. there's no way MS is stupid enough to cripple OpenGL for games which is the only thing we're concerned with. I'm sure iD would have something to say about that.

 

[JDCentral]

and Linux needs to become more User friendly especially for Installing Hardware/Software.

Bah.. whatever.

The problem is that most people expect linux and *NIX variants to be a 'windows drop-in'.

But it isn't. In windows, your mouse is your primary input device to start programs, etc...

In the *NIX world, to hell with the mouse!!!

You can't expect the work-flow to be 'the same' as a windows machine.

Actually... once you know what you're doing, a linux install isn't very difficult.
I think the problem isn't with linux but is with hardware vendors that don't support linux!

Sorry... that was completely O/T.

On subject, though that would be a stupid move my MS. Considering all the hubbub about intel crippling AMD procs on their compilers, I double MS would want to make a move to cripple running anything on their new OS.

 

[Pabster]

And don't forget Vista requiring Monitor-based DRM.

Vista looks more and more like Titanic every day. The difference is that one is already sunk and the other is observing it from a close vantage point

 

[dawks]

Well for those who have forgotten, Microsoft dropped support for OpenGL with Windows XP. If you want OpenGL to work in XP, you need to use 3rd party drivers. Microsofts lack OpenGL support.

Secondly, this sounds kinda shady. If an OpenGL program is run, the Windows Avalon graphics subsystem will shut off? Riiiiight. I'm not sure why that would limit OpenGL's performance to 50% also. And why would it be stuck at 1.4? Isn't it the graphics driver writers choice of which version is included? Although this is on OpenGL.org, it sounds like some horse sh!t.

 

[Matthias99]

Originally posted by: Pabster
And don't forget any OS that wants to play HD-DVD/Blu-Ray will require Monitor-based DRM.

Fixed that for you. This is not Microsoft-based stupidity, but Hollywood instead. This also has nothing to do with the topic in this thread.

I agree with the previous poster. How, exactly, are they going to stop OpenGL from working? You load whatever OpenGL driver you want, then your program talks to the driver and the driver talks to the hardware. They can't selectively disable internal driver features (like OpenGL extensions).

Saying the GUI will have limited/no OpenGL support is hardly surprising, but that shouldn't affect applications.

Also, this whole thing really belongs in Operating Systems.

 

[Chadder007]

Originally posted by: dawks
Well for those who have forgotten, Microsoft dropped support for OpenGL with Windows XP. If you want OpenGL to work in XP, you need to use 3rd party drivers. Microsofts lack OpenGL support.

Secondly, this sounds kinda shady. If an OpenGL program is run, the Windows Avalon graphics subsystem will shut off? Riiiiight. I'm not sure why that would limit OpenGL's performance to 50% also. And why would it be stuck at 1.4? Isn't it the graphics driver writers choice of which version is included? Although this is on OpenGL.org, it sounds like some horse sh!t.

Yep, they say it is to help "improve Stability"......hahahahaahah

 

[Fox5]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: JackBurton
The more news I hear about Vista, the more I think I need to be brushing up on my Linux skills.

..and Linux needs to become more User friendly especially for Installing Hardware/Software.

I dunno, Mandrake is still one of the simplest installations I've ever encountered. Of course, installing software on it isn't.(what, no double click?!)

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: JDCentral

and Linux needs to become more User friendly especially for Installing Hardware/Software.

Bah.. whatever.

The problem is that most people expect linux and *NIX variants to be a 'windows drop-in'.

But it isn't. In windows, your mouse is your primary input device to start programs, etc...

In the *NIX world, to hell with the mouse!!!

You can't expect the work-flow to be 'the same' as a windows machine.

Actually... once you know what you're doing, a linux install isn't very difficult.
I think the problem isn't with linux but is with hardware vendors that don't support linux!

Sorry... that was completely O/T.

On subject, though that would be a stupid move my MS. Considering all the hubbub about intel crippling AMD procs on their compilers, I double MS would want to make a move to cripple running anything on their new OS.

Perhaps, for me I expect an OS to just be an OS. If I want a Hobby/Second Career I can find something more interesting than making my Computer function properly.

I will agree that Support is lacking, but even then I won't touch Linux until there is some kind of Standard Driver/Software Setup and not differing ways such as it has now. I want an OS that is out of my way and intuitive, allowing me to get to what I want my Computer for.

 

[crimson117]

The closest thing I've seen to easily installing software on linux is clicking an RPM link in firefox and hoping it works.

imho, it's the one major thing that keeps linux from being as easy to use as windows.

Don't give me any bs that "well once you figure it out, it's really not that hard to install programs" because you shouldn't have t get good at it. On windows, it's: save setup file, run setup.exe, click next, next, next. Wait, click finish. Done! And all with an icon on your desktop and your start menu - delete them if you like, but they're there if you want them.

 

[Bateluer]

Originally posted by: crimson117
The closest thing I've seen to easily installing software on linux is clicking an RPM link in firefox and hoping it works.

imho, it's the one major thing that keeps linux from being as easy to use as windows.

Don't give me any bs that "well once you figure it out, it's really not that hard to install programs" because you shouldn't have t get good at it. On windows, it's: save setup file, run setup.exe, click next, next, next. Wait, click finish. Done! And all with an icon on your desktop and your start menu - delete them if you like, but they're there if you want them.

I agree entirely, and I think that the first linux distro to implement this successfully will suddenly gain rapid market adoption . . . until the other distros catch up anyway.

Vista is looking worse and worse every day, but then again, so did WinXP prior to its release. I knew a number of people who swore they'd never upgrade to Whistler, never call it WinXP, and now, they all run WinXP Pro.

 

[mmebane]

Autopackage is the answer. More projects need to start using it.

It doesn't work well for "core" packages, though, like KDE libs or drivers. Drivers expecially are likely to be distro-specific for the forseeable future.

 

[BenSkywalker]

Well for those who have forgotten, Microsoft dropped support for OpenGL with Windows XP. If you want OpenGL to work in XP, you need to use 3rd party drivers. Microsofts lack OpenGL support.

Not quite- MS didn't support OpenGL under Win2K, WinME, Win98SE, Win98 any of the varrious Win95 builds and only had very limited support under certain builds of NT4.

To me, it sounds like MS is exploding their support for OpenGL- I certainly have never seen them offer this level of support for an open API. Of course, the world is full of people with extremely short memories so we will listen to the IQ reducing rhetoric about MS trying to crush the little man's API once again for the launch of Vista as we have with every other MS OS launch for nearly the last decade.

 

[Some1ne]

Longhorn is major suckage.

I thought it was "Vista" now?

The problem is that most people expect linux and *NIX variants to be a 'windows drop-in'.

But it isn't. In windows, your mouse is your primary input device to start programs, etc...

In the *NIX world, to hell with the mouse!!!

And it's this whole attitude that pretty much single-handedly prevents linux and other alternatives from ever gaining mainstream acceptance. Like it or not, Windows does make it extremely fast, easy, and painless for the user to perform a lot of system tasks that are actually quite difficult to do in Linux, but instead of realizing this and trying to come up with a similar system, most Linux fans would rather just say "well Windows sucks, so we don't have to pay attention to the things it does right, and can instead continue to provide users with graphical configurators that lack any help documentation whatsoever and are good for sitting there and looking pretty but do little else, and force users to become intimately acquainted with the command-line and to pore over page after page of 'man' documents before they can do anything useful with their system".

Neither OS is perfect, but Windows does get a number of very important usability features right, and Linux is going to have to answer these features with something better than a command-line and a 'man' page if it ever hopes to be taken seriously as an open-source alternative to Windows.

 

[Fox5]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: JDCentral

and Linux needs to become more User friendly especially for Installing Hardware/Software.

Bah.. whatever.

The problem is that most people expect linux and *NIX variants to be a 'windows drop-in'.

But it isn't. In windows, your mouse is your primary input device to start programs, etc...

In the *NIX world, to hell with the mouse!!!

You can't expect the work-flow to be 'the same' as a windows machine.

Actually... once you know what you're doing, a linux install isn't very difficult.
I think the problem isn't with linux but is with hardware vendors that don't support linux!

Sorry... that was completely O/T.

On subject, though that would be a stupid move my MS. Considering all the hubbub about intel crippling AMD procs on their compilers, I double MS would want to make a move to cripple running anything on their new OS.

Perhaps, for me I expect an OS to just be an OS. If I want a Hobby/Second Career I can find something more interesting than making my Computer function properly.

I will agree that Support is lacking, but even then I won't touch Linux until there is some kind of Standard Driver/Software Setup and not differing ways such as it has now. I want an OS that is out of my way and intuitive, allowing me to get to what I want my Computer for.

Try Mandrake, I found that it sets up everything quite well as far as drivers go and handles pretty much everything automatically. Mandrake is one of the simpler Linux distros though, and it's still too hard, not to set up but to use afterwards.(anyone have an idea of how Linspire is?)

 

[TGS]

apt + synaptic = Two click installation of the latest and greatest of any program in the list.

The problem is do you know what the OSS equivalents are called?

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Fox5

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: JDCentral

and Linux needs to become more User friendly especially for Installing Hardware/Software.

Bah.. whatever.

The problem is that most people expect linux and *NIX variants to be a 'windows drop-in'.

But it isn't. In windows, your mouse is your primary input device to start programs, etc...

In the *NIX world, to hell with the mouse!!!

You can't expect the work-flow to be 'the same' as a windows machine.

Actually... once you know what you're doing, a linux install isn't very difficult.
I think the problem isn't with linux but is with hardware vendors that don't support linux!

Sorry... that was completely O/T.

On subject, though that would be a stupid move my MS. Considering all the hubbub about intel crippling AMD procs on their compilers, I double MS would want to make a move to cripple running anything on their new OS.

Perhaps, for me I expect an OS to just be an OS. If I want a Hobby/Second Career I can find something more interesting than making my Computer function properly.

I will agree that Support is lacking, but even then I won't touch Linux until there is some kind of Standard Driver/Software Setup and not differing ways such as it has now. I want an OS that is out of my way and intuitive, allowing me to get to what I want my Computer for.

Try Mandrake, I found that it sets up everything quite well as far as drivers go and handles pretty much everything automatically. Mandrake is one of the simpler Linux distros though, and it's still too hard, not to set up but to use afterwards.(anyone have an idea of how Linspire is?)

Tried Mandrake twice and it is a breeze to install, even easier than Windows. God Forbid it doesn't Install a peice of Hardware though or that you want some different Apps installed. Glad I didn't have a handgun nearby, it would have called my name at a vulnerable moment.

Mandrake is an improvement, but it's still a PITA.

 

[batmanuel]

It'll likely get fixed well before RTM, otherwise they'll never be able to sell the Enterprise version of Vista to companies that need to run 3ds MAX, Maya, ProE and the whole universe of animation and modeling apps that depend on OpenGL. Since these types of apps use a huge amount of system RAM, the animation/CAD people are the kind of customers that will really want to upgrade to a 64-bit version of Vista (assuming that it will have better driver support than XP x86). Crippled OGL will be just kill this very lucrative potential upgrade market, so they will be forced to find some way to get the OGL working right. If a large number of games based off the Doom 3 engine come out next year, it will make it even more critical to fix this. As much as they hate OGL, MS can't cripple it without alienating a huge number of customers.

 

[BenSkywalker]

Crippled OGL will be just kill this very lucrative potential upgrade market, so they will be forced to find some way to get the OGL working right.

No, they won't be forced. nVidia will be forced to fix it for nVidia parts, ATi will be forced to fix it for ATi parts, 3DLabs will be forced to fix it for their parts etc. MS has been shipping their OSs with no OpenGL support for many years now and have moved from being a non factor in the pro 3D community to absolutely dominating it.

As a side note- many of the pro level modeling applications are starting to support D3D along with OpenGL- as of now it is much easier to exploit the feature set of D3D9 then it is trying to get all of the proprietary vendor extensions working under OGL 1.4- the ARB needs to get off their @ss and get 2.0 out the door ASAP.

 

[BFG10K]

I think what's even more noteworthy is that (apparently) drivers under Vista will run under user mode rather than kernel mode. That should make things more stable but I'd wager it could slow down performance of both OpenGL and Direct3D quite a bit.