mp3 player with drag-and-drop support

[RMSe17]

It has been a long time since I looked at the state of mp3 players out there, and a lot seems to have changed. I am looking for a modern mp3 player with plenty of space (16GB +) that would have excellent battery life (over 24hr) and drag-and-drop support, where I can just dump my folders with music on to the device. I currently use my cell phone for music playback, and I just dump the music onto my sd card. Unfortunately the phone is limited to non-SDHC cards, which limits the size to 4GB, plus the playback duration is pretty low...

Am I correct in assuming that all ipods require iTunes to manage your music in order to get music; while ZuneHD / Zune requires some equivalent microsoft software (media player?)?

I am old school when it comes to music organization, and I drag and drop folders of music when I want to listen to a particular band or album. I still use Winamp as my only player, without it's library support. The idea of an application managing my music just doesn't flow with me.

Anyone have a recommendation for me, or do such things no longer exist?

Thanks,
RMSe17

 

[erwos]

Archos 5 and the Zii Egg are probably the two I'd be looking at.

Honestly, I think you're doing yourself a disservice by sticking to folder organization - it's messy, it's not standard, and it makes sync'ing lots of disparate stuff an annoying clickfest. I've had very good results with the Zune software for music organization. Just IMHO.

 

[gorcorps]

You're basically describing the Cowon D2. http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb...words=cowon+d2&x=0&y=0

It goes up to 16gig internal storage, and then supports SDHC cards. No software required... it uses a standard mini-usb cable so it should be easy to use wherever you are (over at friends place or wherever) and it just read as a flash drive. It also has the longest battery life I've seen at 52 hrs rated for music, which isn't really a stretch. It really does last a long damn time.

It's a resistive touch screen, so not quite as responsive as other touchscreens these days, but I love mine.

 

[bassoprofundo]

/rant I don't understand why more players can't implement the ability to use straight mass storage capability. At very least, give the user the option of utilizing MTP/proprietary protocols/software OR plain MSC. For the longest time, I've stuck with my Cowon X5 and used simple folder sync utils to keep it in sync with my local PC music directories. I use Rockbox on the player, which allows me to either view by tags or by folders, and since I keep everything organized by artist & album, I know right where it all is. Plus, I can add/delete/etc. from ANY computer and not just ones with a proprietary software loaded. Argh... /end rant

 

[erwos]

Originally posted by: bassoprofundo
/rant I don't understand why more players can't implement the ability to use straight mass storage capability.

It's because the software has to generate the indexes and caches that keep your player running oh-so-smooth when you cycle through 32gb of music sorted by album alphabetically. You just cannot do that with random directory structures - or, rather, it requires a discrete pass to update all the caches.

Again, not even sure why this is a big deal - I know the Zune software just scans your music (whatever your directory structure) and leaves it in place - but is still able to sync it. I'm almost thinking that some people haven't even tried iTunes or Zune...

 

[RMSe17]

Originally posted by: erwos
Archos 5 and the Zii Egg are probably the two I'd be looking at.

... I've had very good results with the Zune software for music organization. Just IMHO.

The Archos is a bit too big for what I am thinking about (pocket use/sports), though would be good for travelling.
ZiiEgg looks pretty cool, but I am having issues trying to find it in stores...

I have never used Zune, so I am not sure how the software compares to iTunes. I have used iTunes and really do not like it.

Originally posted by: gorcorps
You're basically describing the Cowon D2. http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb...words=cowon+d2&x=0&y=0
...
It's a resistive touch screen, so not quite as responsive as other touchscreens these days, but I love mine.

That looks really good actually, I am looking at more reviews for the product, but as you said, it's what I am looking for

Originally posted by: bassoprofundo
/rant ... /end rant

Yep. I think it is really the consequence of the shift in marketshare of mp3 and other audio. It used to be more of a "techie" and music enthusiast thing, with the masses simply using CDs and radio. Now, when you have a lot of non-technology savvy people using mp3 players everywhere, software came along to automate everything for the users, and I think even the option of manual management would confuse the heck out of a lot of users.

Originally posted by: erwos

It's because the software has to generate the indexes and caches that keep your player running oh-so-smooth when you cycle through 32gb of music sorted by album alphabetically. You just cannot do that with random directory structures - or, rather, it requires a discrete pass to update all the caches.

Again, not even sure why this is a big deal - I know the Zune software just scans your music (whatever your directory structure) and leaves it in place - but is still able to sync it. I'm almost thinking that some people haven't even tried iTunes or Zune...

I think that from the standpoint of generating cache of future music, it is just as easy to use directory listing as it is to use a certain tag attribute or a play list. You just have to program the backend to the algorithm to look at the directory listing in a file system as an alternative to reading in a playlist or a db of tags.

And no, I never tried a Zune, don't really know of anyone with it, and I kinda just assumed Zune = iPod as far as management, with hassles like trying to sync music to a PC or just adding music to a device without worrying about playlist overwriting.

 

[RMSe17]

gorcorps: something that caught my eye in one review is the player's inability to play music while charging through the mini-usb port. Is this accurate?

 

[bassoprofundo]

Originally posted by: erwos

Originally posted by: bassoprofundo
/rant I don't understand why more players can't implement the ability to use straight mass storage capability.

It's because the software has to generate the indexes and caches that keep your player running oh-so-smooth when you cycle through 32gb of music sorted by album alphabetically. You just cannot do that with random directory structures - or, rather, it requires a discrete pass to update all the caches.

Again, not even sure why this is a big deal - I know the Zune software just scans your music (whatever your directory structure) and leaves it in place - but is still able to sync it. I'm almost thinking that some people haven't even tried iTunes or Zune...

If you're using folder-based navigation, what indexes/caches, etc. are there to create? I can see that being the case if organization is done by tags as it is with many players, but with folder-based, there shouldn't be anything other than what it already done by the filesystem. I haven't found folder-based navigation to be cumbersome, but I realize that doesn't work for some people's listening habits. That's why Rockbox is so nice in that I can have both folder-based and tag-based on a single device.

The problem with the proprietary approach is that it requires the use of said software. Using straight MSC, you can manipulate the structure, add/remove files, etc. from any connected computer. If I want to "sync", I can use simple file/folder based tools like MS' SyncToy, but I can also drag n' drop at will. Again, I realize that everyone's needs are different, but I've found this approach to be much simpler for someone who's already techie and who keeps their files organized as compared to something like iTunes (haven't used the Zune sw).

 

[erwos]

Originally posted by: bassoprofundo
If you're using folder-based navigation, what indexes/caches, etc. are there to create? I can see that being the case if organization is done by tags as it is with many players, but with folder-based, there shouldn't be anything other than what it already done by the filesystem. I haven't found folder-based navigation to be cumbersome, but I realize that doesn't work for some people's listening habits. That's why Rockbox is so nice in that I can have both folder-based and tag-based on a single device.

It's because folder-based navigation is archaic and requires annoying work to maintain a directory structure. The metadata to label a music file properly belongs inside of that file, not gleaned from directory structure.

Seriously, there's no advantage to directory-based navigation over normal ID3 tags unless you're tying yourself to a drag-and-drop MP3 player. NONE. It's just a hack. I think if you used a decent MP3 player, like an iPod or a Zune, you'd understand why folder-based nav is obsolete.

The problem with the proprietary approach is that it requires the use of said software. Using straight MSC, you can manipulate the structure, add/remove files, etc. from any connected computer. If I want to "sync", I can use simple file/folder based tools like MS' SyncToy, but I can also drag n' drop at will. Again, I realize that everyone's needs are different, but I've found this approach to be much simpler for someone who's already techie and who keeps their files organized as compared to something like iTunes (haven't used the Zune sw).

Why do you require drag and drop sync when the Zune software does it better AND maintains your oh-so-precious directory structure? Your reason that you need drag-and-drop sync so far appears to be "I need drag and drop sync". That's not really great logic. More generously, it seems to be "I'm used to drag and drop sync". That's not much better.

I plug my Zune in, and all the music in my My Music folder, subscription or otherwise, magically appears sync'd on my Zune. If I wanted to be more selective, I could right-click on an album or artist and sync them specifically. I fail to understand how dragging and dropping with weird synctoy hacks is an improvement on that.

Sorry if I seem harsh - it's your choice, naturally. But I also think you're ignoring progress in this area because you're too used to the old way of doing things. Try the Zune software. Really!

 

[gorcorps]

Originally posted by: RMSe17
gorcorps: something that caught my eye in one review is the player's inability to play music while charging through the mini-usb port. Is this accurate?

Well, yes... but you may have options there. The D2 has both a mini AND micro USB port. The micro USB port is used only for charging, and that's the port the AC adapter uses. You can use the D2 while charging with this port. With the mini usb however, when plugged into a computer it goes into 'PC mode' and it isn't useable. It may be possible to still use the D2 if you use a mini USB AC adapter but I'm not sure.

 

[yh125d]

Ditto on the D2. I have a 16GB D2+ and I love it. I leave it in my car to play over my stereo, and the 52 hour playback number is no joke. I get between 45-50 usually, at 41/50 volume. Full size SD slot for plenty of expandable storage. Plays pretty much every format, and sounds great



But yes it can't play music while being charged through the miniUSB. However as an owner, this is only a very minor annoyance. With the battery life being so high you only have to charge it overnight once every couple weeks so it's never really an issue

 

[TheStu]

With iTunes you can tell it to not sync anything and you can just drag files from the software to the device in the sidebar.

As other have pointed out, software such as Zune or iTunes offeres benefits beyond just playing the music. The Zune software in particularis great for discovering new music and also connecting to a really strong player. I love my iPod to be sure, but if Microsoft made the Zune software work in OS X, then I would be hard pressed to go for an iPod again when my 30GB inevitably dies (nothing lasting forever and whatnot).

I suggest installing the Zune software and seeing what happens, get the 14 day ZunePass trial and see if you like discovering new music that is gleaned from your existing collection of music (it isn't a library yet).

 

[darkswordsman17]

Cowon has at least a couple of players that'd fit the bill, and Sony does as well. The Sandisk Sansa Fuze is on the borderline (8GB with MicroSD expansion, right around 24 hour battery life).

While I agree about not writing off iTunes/Zune software, if you don't want it then not a big deal. Something that pissed me off is the latest iTunes update apparently had to reinstall, which reinstalled Quicktime, which jacked my file associations.

I wouldn't recommend Archos, as they have issues with support and aren't well regarded in sound quality (I don't think they'd fit the bill on battery life either). The Zii won't be out for a while, and I wouldn't wait on it as it looks like it still needs a lot of development (Creative trying to make an iPhone/Android competitor, while trying to make a system on chip to rival Tegra/OMAP/Snapdragon).

You could also consider getting an older iPod (5/5.5 gen more specifically) and Rockboxing it.

 

[bassoprofundo]

Originally posted by: erwos
It's because folder-based navigation is archaic and requires annoying work to maintain a directory structure. The metadata to label a music file properly belongs inside of that file, not gleaned from directory structure.

Certainly an opinion that could be argued convincingly, but nonetheless an opinion. I'm guessing here that your library doesn't consist of a diverse array of formats with equally diverse metadata schemas. When your library consists of not only MP3/WMA but also FLAC, APE, OGG, etc., tagging can get considerably trickier. While there's no doubt that these tags provide infinitely more detailed info, a simple, across-the-board file/folder naming scheme can make navigation a snap.

Seriously, there's no advantage to directory-based navigation over normal ID3 tags unless you're tying yourself to a drag-and-drop MP3 player. NONE. It's just a hack. I think if you used a decent MP3 player, like an iPod or a Zune, you'd understand why folder-based nav is obsolete.

I'm sorry, but you outed yourself when you said "a decent MP3 player, like an iPod or Zune." There's no doubt that both are very capable players and are supported by equally impressive content & marketing ecosystems, especially in the case of the Ipod. However, it sounds like you're implying that they hold some inherent superiority over something like a Rockboxed X5 or a Rio Karma. Again, I would say it depends on your intended use. Despite their relative age, you can't get better quality out of a DAP for straight audio purposes than either of the two I mentioned previously, and for my needs, you can't beat a platform-agnostic player. I can take a MSC device to any Windows, OSX, or Linux box anywhere and get the same experience. Want to use that Zune HD on a Mac? Now that takes a "hack." Hook that Ipod up your Linux netbook and load iTunes... oh wait... that takes a "hack." Want to use the same lossless codec on both devices? Whoops, not even a hack for that one... All a matter of what you want/need... My Iphone's great for video, Pandora, Slacker, etc. Just not my cup of tea for my own music library...

Why do you require drag and drop sync when the Zune software does it better AND maintains your oh-so-precious directory structure? Your reason that you need drag-and-drop sync so far appears to be "I need drag and drop sync". That's not really great logic. More generously, it seems to be "I'm used to drag and drop sync". That's not much better.

Disregarding your increasingly condescending tone... Who said anything about "need"? Again a matter of preference... There are definitely some setups that are better suited to certain individuals. I prefer to have access to the player from multiple PCs. I prefer not to be locked into a single platform. I prefer to have a player that gives me options for organizational methods and supports every audio codec represented in my library. I prefer to include my music folders in the same batch process that I use to backup everything else. And so on...

I plug my Zune in, and all the music in my My Music folder, subscription or otherwise, magically appears sync'd on my Zune. If I wanted to be more selective, I could right-click on an album or artist and sync them specifically. I fail to understand how dragging and dropping with weird synctoy hacks is an improvement on that.

Again, what's with the "hack" designation here? Graphical "drag n' drop" has been a standard feature in every desktop file manager for the last 20 years. You can't get any more intuitive that using the same file managment techniques required in every other aspect of PC use. IMHO, a hack is having to work around draconian software restrictions to make a device do what I want. I love my Iphone, but why do I have to jailbreak it to make my calendar show up on the lock screen or change my springboard background color? And why do I have to launch iTunes, add a new file/folder to my library, and do a sync just to get a single MP3 over to it?

Sorry if I seem harsh - it's your choice, naturally. But I also think you're ignoring progress in this area because you're too used to the old way of doing things. Try the Zune software. Really!

You do seem harsh, but it's all good. To each his own, I say. We're fortunate enough to have enough choices around to suit just about everyone. I snagged a Zune on the cheap, so I'll be checking out the software soon enough. Cheers!

 

[erwos]

Interesting response. I agree, drag-and-drop is a much more friendly solution to niche platforms, but this I feel as if this is something that needs to be mentioned up front.

Your digital audio collection sounds a lot like mine did about seven years ago. Then I decided to store everything in WMA lossless (which, IIRC, gives a better compression rate than FLAC), which had the net effect of solving my other issues without quality loss. If I ever need to "switch", I can just run one of the random "convert WMA lossless to whatever" converters lying around on the web.

You did seem to misinterpret my comments about "hack", which is not that d-n-d is an ugly hack, but rather that trying to use synctoy to do this was (in the original sense of the word hack, which is also not what you appear to think it is). But, again, gleaning metadata from folder structure just seems like a poor way of doing things.

Anyways, enjoy the Zune, I think it might convert you - the software doesn't do all the obnoxious things that iTunes seems to. Audio quality in the hardware is reportedly quite excellent if you use the line-out via the dock connector (not that I bother - that's what lossless streaming to my 360 is for!).

I also stand by my comments to the OP - if he has a "more normal" collection, he'll do himself a favor by looking at the non-drag-and-drop entrants.