Moving an outlet a few feet and needing to go through studs

[pete6032]

I am making some changes to my bathroom. The previous owner installed the vanity outlet in a very strange spot, almost right behind the faucet handles. I want to move it to a more appropriate location just off to the side of the vanity about 3-4 feet away. In order to do this I will need to extend the old wire a few feet through 2 or 3 studs. What is the best way to get the wire through the studs? Should I just cut a 3-4 foot by 3 inch hole in the drywall so I can see what I am doing and then drill through the studs? Or is there a less invasive way to drill horizontally through the studs and get the wire run properly?

 

[akugami]

Every job is a tad unique.

I'm always hesitant about bathrooms. There can be funny pipe and wire arrangements in there, in a not so haha kind of way, when you hit one.

If it's drywall and no tiles or wallpaper, I'd probably just bite the bullet and cut the hole. From a time and cost perspective, that's probably your best option.

If you're absolutely sure there is nothing in the wall, and especially if you can move the old outlet box out of the way, it is possible to use a long reach flex bit. They come in lengths of about 4.5 feet (54"). You may need to widen the original outlet hole a tad to get it to fit in. There is the risk of a blow out, which means the bit pokes through the wall, rather than going straight through the studs in the wall. You can look up youtube videos on tricks such as using tennis balls to help you stabilize and guide the bit as it is going into the wall. On the negative side, these bits are very expensive at $50-80 each.

I'm not an electrician, so you may need to check your local regulations, but I believe NEC code would require the junction box where you splice the wire to extend its reach be accessible. So you may need to leave the original box there, with a cover on it.

 

[Greenman]

I am making some changes to my bathroom. The previous owner installed the vanity outlet in a very strange spot, almost right behind the faucet handles. I want to move it to a more appropriate location just off to the side of the vanity about 3-4 feet away. In order to do this I will need to extend the old wire a few feet through 2 or 3 studs. What is the best way to get the wire through the studs? Should I just cut a 3-4 foot by 3 inch hole in the drywall so I can see what I am doing and then drill through the studs? Or is there a less invasive way to drill horizontally through the studs and get the wire run properly?

Cut out a big chunk of drywall, it's as easy to do a large patch as a small one. You'll need a junction box where you extend the wiring, put it up near the ceiling.
If there is attic space above you can avoid removing drywall by putting the junction in the attic and drilling through the top plates in the new location and fishing the wire down to a cut in box. That would also be a good opportunity to upgrade to a dedicated 20amp GFIC circuit if there isn't one in place.

Blind drilling laterally in a bathroom wall is an iffy proposition, you can't see what you're drilling through.

 

[Paperdoc]

I'd prefer the idea from Greenman - new junction box in the attic and drop a cable from that down inside the wall. You DO need a junction box to add any length of cable, and it MUST be accessible - NOT covered over.

HOWEVER, this needs two things. First, this plan assumes the bathroom is below an attic, and OP has not given us the details. Of course, maybe it is on the ground floor and you could do this by drilling UP from the basement into the wall at the right place. THEN there's the question of fire stops in the wall - that is, horizontal pieces of 2x4 between vertical studs. These would block your ability to fish a cable through the wall to the new location. In my old house there are no fire stops so fishing cables is easy.

So if any of these issues prevents doing the fishing from an upper or lower level, then a single hole cut out for drilling is best. You can put a drywall patch over that and cover it smoothly for repainting. You can use the original outlet mounting box in its existing location as your junction box. When done you MUST leave its front accessible and just close it with a blank cover plate.

In most jurisdictions now you must use a GFCI device in this location, not a plain receptacle. I expect fully that the wire in the wall feeding from your beaker panel is 14/2 gauge, so it's rated for max 15 A. It is common now to find GFCI units rated for 20 A because that is used often in kitchen outlets, with matching 12/2 cables. You certainly CAN use that type on a circuit fed by 14/2 cable from a 15 A breaker. But you also could use one rated for 15 A UNLESS the existing breaker and wire cable of this circuit is already 20 A and 12/2 gauge.

 

[Greenman]

You can use a 15 amp GFIC on a 20 amp circuit in residential construction. Unless there has been a code change I'm unaware of.

 

[jmagg]

I'd put the junction box in the basement (if there is one), drill up into the cavity and use an old work box. This is if you don't mind simply covering the existing box. If you plan on removing and patching the existing box, you may as well cut the rock out, drill a couple holes in studs and use the same route as the old.

 

[Mr.IncrediblyBored]

There is a good chance a vent pipe is in the wall right behind your vanity. I wouldn't drill horizontally into that blind. I third/fourth the others to cut out a section of drywall. If you have access above or below the bath, all the better.

 

[Paperdoc]

If you have a circuit using 12/2 cable and fed by a 20 amp breaker, I would expect electrical code NOT to allow you to put a 15A GFCI on it. That unit is designed to handle loads up to 15 A with a modest safety factor. But the limit on the circuit imposed by the breaker is 20 A, also with a small excess allowed, so it will NOT protect the GFCI against modest and continuous overloads. I have NOT searched any local code for this detail, but it only makes sense.

In fact, the popular use of 20 A GFCI's, I suspect, is because the requirements in a kitchen were changed some decades ago. Code in our area used to require at least three Split Duplex outlets along the counter, plus a fourth near the eating table. A Split Duplex is fed from a 15 A dual breaker via 14/3 cable to the mounting box bringing TWO 120 VAC lines (from opposite sides of the breaker panel) plus a Neutral. On the outlet device the jumper on the HOT side is broken off and the two Hot lines (Black and Red) connected to those two screws which now are SEPARATE. So each of the two sockets is a separate 120 VAC 15A circuit - two 15 A circuits from a single duplex receptacle. LATER came the requirement to change so that outlets near any water (sink!) must be GFCI units and NOT simple receptacles. BUT Making a DUPLEX GFCI is tough and expensive so nobody planned to make that mandatory. So the compromise appears to be you allow on kitchen counters anywhere a 20 A GFCI with two sockets so you still can plug in two devices, but they receive from the beaker panel 120 VAC from the SAME breaker and cable and must share the 20 A current limit. MOST of the time you will not plug in and use simultaneously TWO appliances that each use close to 15 A (as the older Split Duplex system allows) so it all works. But that really is less power available from that 2-socket fixture. Personally, I'd be inclined in a kitchen to install only 15 A GFCI's, but many more of them to allow all the appliances often found along a counter. After all, so many appliances themselves are designed ONLY for 15 A max current use, and are not adequately protected by a 20 A breaker in my view.

 

[WilliamM2]

If you have a circuit using 12/2 cable and fed by a 20 amp breaker, I would expect electrical code NOT to allow you to put a 15A GFCI on it. That unit is designed to handle loads up to 15 A with a modest safety factor. But the limit on the circuit imposed by the breaker is 20 A, also with a small excess allowed, so it will NOT protect the GFCI against modest and continuous overloads. I have NOT searched any local code for this detail, but it only makes sense.

He can use 15 amp outlets on a 20 amp circuit, as long as there is more than one outlet on that circuit. Lighting can also use 20 amp circuits. My whole house was wired this way. Except the garage, where I wanted all 20 amp outlets.

Remember that anything that REQUIRES a 20 amp circuit will have a different plug, that can't be inserted into a 15 amp outlet.

For the splice question, there are splices now that are code compliant to be hidden in a wall.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Tyco-Electronics-Romex-Splice-Kit-3-Wire-1-Clam-CPGI-208169-2/202204327

Not sure I'd use onre though.

 

[Greenman]

The rules changed in the 2014 code about their use:
The 2014 Code cycle adopted a more precise language when discussing these splicing devices – declaring they must be listed (such as UL) and deemed a nonmetallic sheathed cable interconnector device. So that no confusion could be had as to the type of splicing mechanism being referred to for this purpose. Section 334.40(B) in the 2014 NEC also removed permission for using the device as part of “rewiring” as the previous Code cycle(s) had stated. Replacing that language with REPAIR wiring only. So that a NM cable accidentally punctured with a screw or nail or nicked while fishing a wall could still qualify for this splicing procedure. But no permission existed in the 2014 NEC for using the splicing device outside of repair work. Also, the requirement for the NM cable to be “fished” if it were to be spliced was also removed. That is because the only time you are now permitted to use the device is for repair work and not for extending wiring (rewiring work) when the wiring is too short.

I've found wiring spliced 3 times an a 4 foot length in a kitchen wall. It was quite literally scraps put together. When you find something like that the entire system becomes suspect. I've never done it, even when it would have saved me several hundred dollars worth of labor.

 

[WilliamM2]

The rules changed in the 2014 code about their use:
The 2014 Code cycle adopted a more precise language when discussing these splicing devices – declaring they must be listed (such as UL) and deemed a nonmetallic sheathed cable interconnector device. So that no confusion could be had as to the type of splicing mechanism being referred to for this purpose. Section 334.40(B) in the 2014 NEC also removed permission for using the device as part of “rewiring” as the previous Code cycle(s) had stated. Replacing that language with REPAIR wiring only. So that a NM cable accidentally punctured with a screw or nail or nicked while fishing a wall could still qualify for this splicing procedure. But no permission existed in the 2014 NEC for using the splicing device outside of repair work. Also, the requirement for the NM cable to be “fished” if it were to be spliced was also removed. That is because the only time you are now permitted to use the device is for repair work and not for extending wiring (rewiring work) when the wiring is too short.

I've found wiring spliced 3 times an a 4 foot length in a kitchen wall. It was quite literally scraps put together. When you find something like that the entire system becomes suspect. I've never done it, even when it would have saved me several hundred dollars worth of labor.

Changed again in 2020 or 2023.

 

[Greenman]

Same rules apply for 2020, I can't find a 2023 reference so I don't know if it's changed there. If you have a link to something please share it.

 

[herm0016]

electrician here.

nothing about repair vs extend or rewire in 2020 or 2023. could be in IBC or local amendments? I have studied both books as i am in night school for my masters. the only repair/extend i know of is exceptions to GFCI and AFCI protection.

15/20 amp devices: table 210.21(b)(3) , 210.21 (a) and (b)
As long as there are multiple outlets on the circuit you are quite fine to use 15a devices on a 20 amp circuit in residential construction. this is because a 20amp plug will not fit in a 15 amp outlet. so the device will be protected by its plug design. further more residential code already derates everything about 20 % in ampacity of the wire and contacts. having a 20 amp circ with 15 amp devices just makes sense when you consider that there is no limit to the number of devices on a circuit in residential construction.
Bathrooms: 210.52 (d),
now for bathrooms, the circuit can only feed one bathroom if you have lights and outlets on it, or you may feed all the outlets in all the bathrooms with one 20 amp circ if the lighting load is not on the same circ.

Splices: 334.40 (b)
in wall splices are approved where listed devices are used and may be concealed. look up the UL listing with "nonmetallic-sheathed cable interconnector devices"

NFPA 70 2023 code references ( actual name of our electrical code)

paperdoc... not sure where you get most of that, but you are mostly wrong.

If you have a circuit using 12/2 cable and fed by a 20 amp breaker, I would expect electrical code NOT to allow you to put a 15A GFCI on it. That unit is designed to handle loads up to 15 A with a modest safety factor. But the limit on the circuit imposed by the breaker is 20 A, also with a small excess allowed, so it will NOT protect the GFCI against modest and continuous overloads. I have NOT searched any local code for this detail, but it only makes sense.

nope.... a 20 amp breaker has no overhead, it will trip in less than 6ms at 20 amp, thats the standard. you should not load a breaker to more than 80% of its capacity.

In fact, the popular use of 20 A GFCI's, I suspect, is because the requirements in a kitchen were changed some decades ago. Code in our area used to require at least three Split Duplex outlets along the counter, plus a fourth near the eating table.

not even close. 2023 for a kitchen is at least 2 20 amp small applience branch circs that can not include convenience outlets. 2 feet max from end of counters and 4 feet max along countertop not to include stove opening or sink opening. all outlets in a kitchen must be GFCI protected if they are 110 to ground ( includes 240 outlets in single phase systems) no requirements for "split duplex outlets" which is a term that does not appear in code at all. 2020 was nearly the same, except for the gfci requirement for 240v outlets.

A Split Duplex is fed from a 15 A dual breaker via 14/3 cable to the mounting box bringing TWO 120 VAC lines (from opposite sides of the breaker panel) plus a Neutral.

you cant really run anymore multiwire branch circuits with gfci and afci codes. 2 hot legs with one neutral

On the outlet device the jumper on the HOT side is broken off and the two Hot lines (Black and Red) connected to those two screws which now are SEPARATE. So each of the two sockets is a separate 120 VAC 15A circuit - two 15 A circuits from a single duplex receptacle. LATER came the requirement to change so that outlets near any water (sink!) must be GFCI units and NOT simple receptacles. BUT Making a DUPLEX GFCI is tough and expensive so nobody planned to make that mandatory. So the compromise appears to be you allow on kitchen counters anywhere a 20 A GFCI with two sockets so you still can plug in two devices, but they receive from the beaker panel 120 VAC from the SAME breaker and cable and must share the 20 A current limit. MOST of the time you will not plug in and use simultaneously TWO appliances that each use close to 15 A (as the older Split Duplex system allows) so it all works. But that really is less power available from that 2-socket fixture. Personally, I'd be inclined in a kitchen to install only 15 A GFCI's, but many more of them to allow all the appliances often found along a counter. After all, so many appliances themselves are designed ONLY for 15 A max current use, and are not adequately protected by a 20 A breaker in my view.

breakers protect the wire in the wall or conduit and the devices ( a clearly defined term in NEC). They have absolutely nothing to do with anything you plug in. It's a fundamental and pervasive misunderstanding of electrical systems.

Maybe someone in the past did all that, but its not something that appears in any current code. Since 2014 the only code is 210.7 which states that if 2 or more circuits supply a single yoke ( term for one device) they must have a common trip breaker so power is turned off to both circuits if one trips. and multiwire branch circuits 210.4.

 

[Paperdoc]

Lots of up-to-date info there from herm0016. Thanks.

From a logical perspective I'm a little surprised that electrical infrastructure in the wall up to the receptacle fixture is not concerned with load capacity in the user devices (e.g. appliances) you plug in. However, from a practical perspective it makes total sense. Responsibility for proper and safe design of an appliance or like device must be with the device manufacturers, and not with the people who install the house wiring.

 

[pete6032]

I'd prefer the idea from Greenman - new junction box in the attic and drop a cable from that down inside the wall. You DO need a junction box to add any length of cable, and it MUST be accessible - NOT covered over.

HOWEVER, this needs two things. First, this plan assumes the bathroom is below an attic, and OP has not given us the details.

The bathroom is in a basement. The wall that the outlet is on is an interior wall. The other side of the wall is a bedroom.

 

[Paperdoc]

Do you have access to the ceiling? For example, in my finished basement area we have suspended ceilings so I can move tiles and access wires and pipes between the rafters, and dampers on air ducts.

 

[pete6032]

Do you have access to the ceiling? For example, in my finished basement area we have suspended ceilings so I can move tiles and access wires and pipes between the rafters, and dampers on air ducts.

Its a sheet rock ceiling but there are access holes cut in for running wires. Haven't looked in them yet.

Another question - would an old work box work for this outlet or should I use a new work box? Its going to be a tamper resistant GFCI outlet with people plugging in hair dryers, curling irons, etc. Could have a lot of pressure on it. Will old work box hold up?

 

[Paperdoc]

Is the old box sturdy / rigid? Or wobbly? For duarbility, ensure the screws you use to mount it hold it strongly to a stud with little flexing. Check the threads in the top and bottom points where screws hold the GFCI unit in the box - are they worn out, or solid enough to hold that GCFI? What about the holes in the end for cable entry? For this you should have only one hole open since you have only one cable to insert. Verify that hole has a good cable clamp inside to fasten the cable.

 

[Greenman]

Its a sheet rock ceiling but there are access holes cut in for running wires. Haven't looked in them yet.

Another question - would an old work box work for this outlet or should I use a new work box? Its going to be a tamper resistant GFCI outlet with people plugging in hair dryers, curling irons, etc. Could have a lot of pressure on it. Will old work box hold up?

It all depends on the style of cut in box you use. The boxes that attach to a stud with internal screws are every bit as durable as a nail on box.

https://www.gordonelectricsupply.com/p/Arlington-F101-Screw-Mount-Device-Box/5978716?msclkid=64486277d9a9164cc9cf07cda6542725

 

[pete6032]

So I just discovered that this particular outlet is wired to about half of the outlets in the guest bedroom next door. Does the most current electrical code requires a dedicated circuit to the bathroom vanity, or dedicated circuit to the bathroom outlets?

 

[akugami]

GFCI is required in areas where it may get wet. Bathrooms are one of them. Kitchens, crawl spaces, garages, basements, washer dryer room are other areas.

Old houses have funny wiring that is definitely not up to modern code. The house I'm in has a circuit that goes from the first floor bathroom to the second floor hallway. Can't fix without major work cutting through walls to re-run the wiring.

As long as the old box is mounted with either screws or nails to a stable object, like a wooden back wall, or a wood stud, then it's fine. Electrical outlets should most definitely not be mounted to just the drywall alone. Our company had an old office that had the Ethernet ports mounted to a box that was attached only to the drywall. Because it was in an area used for testing devices, the drywall definitely started to crumble after a couple years of abuse. And plugging in a power cord to an electrical outlet definitely takes more force than an Ethernet cable.

Assuming it is stably mounted, I'd be more worried about old outlet boxes not having room for a GFCI outlet. I had that issue once.

 

[WilliamM2]

So I just discovered that this particular outlet is wired to about half of the outlets in the guest bedroom next door. Seems like the current electrical code requires a dedicated GFCI outlet above the bathroom vanity, correct?

All outlets and switches in the bathroom should be GFCI protected. This is easily achieved by having the first outlet feeding the others be a GFCI.
My bathroom circuit actually starts in the hall just outside the bathroom, that's where my GFCI outlet is installed, protecting the whole bathroom. This would not currently be allowed, bathrooms on new builds need a dedicated circuit.

But it's fine on existing structures, and it's only one outlet. And any building only needs to meet the codes in force when it was built.

 

[pete6032]

All outlets and switches in the bathroom should be GFCI protected. This is easily achieved by having the first outlet feeding the others be a GFCI.
My bathroom circuit actually starts in the hall just outside the bathroom, that's where my GFCI outlet is installed, protecting the whole bathroom. This would not currently be allowed, bathrooms on new builds need a dedicated circuit.

But it's fine on existing structures, and it's only one outlet. And any building only needs to meet the codes in force when it was built.

My mistake. I meant dedicated circuit.

 

[WilliamM2]

S

My mistake. I meant dedicated circuit.

Should be fine on an existing home. I never understood the dedicated circuit bit. The only electrical in my bathhroom is one outlet, a fan, and lights. 3 whole items. Doubt the one outlet in the hall will drive it over the edge!

Is this even going to be inspected?

 

[Greenman]

My mistake. I meant dedicated circuit.

Per current code it would have to be a 20amp dedicated circuit. I don't recall the conditions that require an upgrade.