MoveOn.org: Bad for Democrats?

[StageLeft]

Basically all of the left's PR efforts do nothing but alienate people from their causes. People like michael moore just turn others republican, because they don't want to be associated with a guy like that.

 

[vi edit]

I will never, EVER, understand why people act as though abortion is a GREAT thing.. YIPPIE!!! THE MORE ABORTIONS THE BETTER!! You act as though its like Freedom of Speech..

Abortions are horrible.. in ALL cases.. Its an absolute tradgedy that babies are being killed. We can argue whether or not in some cases its justified but stop parading around like abortions are some sort of BENEFIT to society.. We should be working toward a society where abortion is never needed.. But I sometimes think supporters of abortion think they need to work toward a society where abortions are common and accepted. What good does that do us? Yippie!! Another dead baby! ALL REJOICE!

Ever occur to you that you can support the legalization of something without being an advocate of it?

I'm not a marijuana advocate, but I would support the legalization of it.
I'm not a fan of firearms but I support their legalization.
I don't embrace abortion and would never encourage it, but I believe it's better to be legal than the alternative of using a coathanger or a chop shop doc doing it in a dirty alley.

 

[StageLeft]

I'm not a marijuana advocate, but I would support the legalization of it.
I'm not a fan of firearms but I support their legalization.
I don't embrace abortion and would never encourage it, but I believe it's better to be legal than the alternative of using a coathanger or a chop shop doc doing it in a dirty alley.

I think the diff could be that, me for instance I don't like weed, but I have no moral revulsion to it, so no problem with it being legal. Same with spinners for my car. I don't like them, but that shouldn't stop others. When it comes to something like abortion if you truly don't like it/abhor it morally, then it doesn't make sense to legalize it simply because to illegalize it means people will break the law. We could, afterall, have a society devoid of any illegal activity if we had no laws, and when we make new ones we know with certainty that they will be broken by some.

I also see what crimson is saying about the attitudes about abortion. I get the distinct and awful impression that some women would be almost proud to say they had an abortion because it's a celebration of their rights as a woman. This is a disgusting attitude.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Condor

Originally posted by: conjur
As long as the Swiftboat liars and their GOP backers are pushing out ads filled with lies and deception, then MoveOn.org should keep right on doing what they're doing. Besides, hth reads Rolling Stone anymore?

The problem with liberals is that they think anything that doesn't meet their agenda is a pack of lies and that keeps them from seeing the truth in any issue. The truth is that Kerry is an opportunistic coward. Four months, three Purple Hearts and one self inflected. Some hero!

And that pile of BS has *what* to do with this thread?


Oh yeah....*nothing*

 

[vi edit]

I also see what crimson is saying about the attitudes about abortion. I get the distinct and awful impression that some women would be almost proud to say they had an abortion because it's a celebration of their rights as a woman. This is a disgusting attitude.

For cetain. I abhor that attitude as well and believe it is despicable. But, turning a blind eye on teenage sex and preaching the mantra of abstinence with no education on birth control and STD prevention isn't the proper way either. There's a happy medium somewhere in between that both far sides of the issue just seem to forget.

I just feel that keeping it legal is in the long run hurting less people than outlawing and turning it underground.

But this topic is a horse that is long dead beaten and burried.

 

[Stunt]

Actually, there was one interesting thing i got out of the primaries this year.
Kucinich was known by many to be the most left leaning candidate...i confirmed this when i heard that moore liked him best.
Now i'm sure you guys were wating the iowa caucus's as i was, and noticed the deal that was cut between Kucinich and Edwards (if a vote was close, the other's votes were to go to the other guy). At the time, i didnt think much of it, i thought, oh whatever a dem helping a dem. But as the primaries progressed and exit polls started coming out, we found out that Edwards was most appealing to the centrist and conservative crowd. I found this stunning, as the guy who was attracting the conservative vote was making deals with the most liberal candidate.

I'm sorry but that is nothing more than amazing for any politician. If you can appeal to those who are not on the same mindset as you...wow!
And to be quite honest, if it came down to it all the kerry supporters (fringe lefties and left of centre ppl) would have gone edwards over bush.
I think the dems were stupid this time round. I hope they make a better showing. I think in a two party system, balance is needed, and there isn't atm.

I would also love and support a true conservative candidate. Conservative on foreign involvement, conservative fiscally, and hopefully moderate socially. That's my wish list, i'm sure you all have yours.

 

[imported_Condor]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Condor

Originally posted by: conjur
As long as the Swiftboat liars and their GOP backers are pushing out ads filled with lies and deception, then MoveOn.org should keep right on doing what they're doing. Besides, hth reads Rolling Stone anymore?

The problem with liberals is that they think anything that doesn't meet their agenda is a pack of lies and that keeps them from seeing the truth in any issue. The truth is that Kerry is an opportunistic coward. Four months, three Purple Hearts and one self inflected. Some hero!

And that pile of BS has *what* to do with this thread?


Oh yeah....*nothing*

I don't think Swiftboat met your agenda. That ties my post to the thread.

 

[PatboyX]

yeah, i think it can be bad...but it can also be good. it is a tool for use.
did anyone see that daily show interview a couple days back?
ive seen the transcript posted on right-wing sites as proof of what terrible people liberals are and, by association, the daily show.
i cant remember the womans name but she basically said that it would be terrible if iraq turned out really well. she was sort of joking, but her jokes fell flat...

essentially, moveon et al is seen as "all liberals" by the right-wing media outlets. and are then used to characterize the democrats despite any difference. and with things in the current state for the democratic party, having moveon as an ally was a good idea...but the question is really for how long should the association be left.

 

[dannybin1742]

leaving his men to stay there and keep fighting...

and then he came home and threw his medals and burned his uniform....for that....he is a piece of garbage....

dissent is patriotic my friend

And to be quite honest, if it came down to it all the kerry supporters (fringe lefties and left of centre ppl) would have gone edwards over bush.

you mean 49% of the country?

it funny how democrats call al repubs that tow the party line neo cons, and al lthe repubs call the anyone not agreeing with them "liberals"

 

[Proletariat]

*Yawn* It's an era. A Republican Era. Out with Gonzo and in with the Gannon. Who knows America may have changed forever but that doesn't mean moveon.org is bad for anything. Anything remotely leftist these days is seen as whacko. Just look at how people react when you say the word Socialism here.

Good article on the current state of the American news media:

http://www.dailytexanonline.com/news/20...Journalism.To.Bootlicking-873420.shtml

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Proletariat
Anything remotely leftist these days is seen as whacko.


Even in the face of half this country voting for a "liberal" president.
And they say WE are out of touch. :roll:
They are about as "in touch" with the pulse of america as whichever racist hate-filled parent who taught them "the hard realities of life" and taught them it's ok to grow up like them.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Basically all of the left's PR efforts do nothing but alienate people from their causes. People like michael moore just turn others republican, because they don't want to be associated with a guy like that.

See, this is the problem. Some people think idiots like Michael Moore represent the PR for the Democrats and the mainstream of the left. Sorry to say, but most of you don't seem to have any idea what the left is about. I believe THIS is what needs to change. All of a sudden, liberal is some ugly word that is thrown around as an insult, when in reality guys like Michael Moore represent the left as much as Ann Coulter represents the right.

I realize this is politics, and generalizations happen, but as much as a the right hates been characterized as a bunch of Bible thumping NASCAR watching Bug Light drinking red necks, you'd think they'd be more mindful of what they say about the left.

 

[Steeplerot]

Michael moore at least tried to be respectful in F9/11 to others comparing him to a hatemonger like coulter is a farce.
I would have to totally disagree with you there. Where has moore ever been hateful in his message?

 

[Proletariat]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Basically all of the left's PR efforts do nothing but alienate people from their causes. People like michael moore just turn others republican, because they don't want to be associated with a guy like that.

See, this is the problem. Some people think idiots like Michael Moore represent the PR for the Democrats and the mainstream of the left. Sorry to say, but most of you don't seem to have any idea what the left is about. I believe THIS is what needs to change. All of a sudden, liberal is some ugly word that is thrown around as an insult, when in reality guys like Michael Moore represent the left as much as Ann Coulter represents the right.

I realize this is politics, and generalizations happen, but as much as a the right hates been characterized as a bunch of Bible thumping NASCAR watching Bug Light drinking red necks, you'd think they'd be more mindful of what they say about the left.

Do what you say? Stop being hypocritical? Have you looked at the history of conservative politics in this country? Why even bother posting such things. Hell Michael Moore is the left. The rest of the left is just a bunch of pansies. It's like everyone lost their balls after the 60's.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Proletariat
It's like everyone lost their balls after the 60's.

There are still plenty of lefties standing up to the BS and smears.
Just becasue the corprate media makes them out to be fringe and they get nothing but negative exposure does not mean a lot will not still call a spade a spade.
Don't sell yourself short all evil empires fail sooner or later when they become topheavy.
The fearmongering of the american people and disinformation can not last forever.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: misle
Link to Article

So who is MoveOn? Consider this: Howard Dean finished first in the MoveOn primary. Number Two wasn't John Kerry or John Edwards -- it was Dennis Kucinich. Listing the issues that resonate most with their membership, Boyd and Blades cite the environment, the Iraq War, campaign-finance reform, media reform, voting reform and corporate reform. Somewhere after freedom, opportunity and responsibility comes "the overlay of security concerns that everybody shares." Terrorism as a specific concern is notably absent. As are jobs. As is health care. As is education.

A lot of Conservative people think that MoveOn.org is good for Republicans because it makes Democrats look like Far-Left wackos.

What do you guys think:
Is MoveOn.org a good thing for Democrats?

MoveOn.org only makes Democrats look like far left wackos to people who think that anyways. In the pseudo intellectual words of the article, Consider This: Voters concerned about jobs, health care and education (not to mention Iraq and the economy), the very issues MoveOn apparently didn't address, voted for Kerry with very large majorities. And as far as putting freedom above terrorism...you're God damn right that's more important. What's wrong with you?

Without naming names, both sides have a number of groups attached who don't make their sides look very good. But rational, intelligent people look at that and they can see that those fringe groups don't represent the mainstream on either side. I know conservatives are wetting their pants over how groups like MoveOn might drive people away from the left, but people aren't that stupid.

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: dannybin1742
dissent is patriotic my friend

And to be quite honest, if it came down to it all the kerry supporters (fringe lefties and left of centre ppl) would have gone edwards over bush.

you mean 49% of the country?

it funny how democrats call al repubs that tow the party line neo cons, and al lthe repubs call the anyone not agreeing with them "liberals"

The current republican party is neoconservative. It's not an insult just as liberal is not one. It is an ideology that the republicans fairly blatently follow.

Now the kerry comment was based on the primaries where kerry was only appealing to left of centre and fringe lefties...it was clark and edwards (to a greater degree) who were appealing to the fiscal conservative, social liberals, and independents.
The only reason kerry got 49% of the vote is because he was getting repelled vote from bush, not because people wanted him.
Edwards and Clark would have attracted more conservatives/independents than kerry, this was shown through the primaries.

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: Crimson

Originally posted by: yllus
Whatever they want to decide for their party is cool, can't really say I know much about Dennis Kucinich, so I just took a look.

Dennis Kucinich on the Issues:

Abortion: Abortions should always be legal. :thumbsup:

I will never, EVER, understand why people act as though abortion is a GREAT thing.. YIPPIE!!! THE MORE ABORTIONS THE BETTER!! You act as though its like Freedom of Speech..

Abortions are horrible.. in ALL cases.. Its an absolute tradgedy that babies are being killed. We can argue whether or not in some cases its justified but stop parading around like abortions are some sort of BENEFIT to society.. We should be working toward a society where abortion is never needed.. But I sometimes think supporters of abortion think they need to work toward a society where abortions are common and accepted. What good does that do us? Yippie!! Another dead baby! ALL REJOICE!

Meh, I'm a pragmatist at heart. Once legal, abortion will never again be illegal. It simply won't happen - for pragmatic reasons as well as legal. People will resort to back alley operations and doctors will supply the treatment. So if just for safety reasons for all concerned, the debate might as well die today.

In the same way, I'll never (now that I've really thought the issue through) be an advocate for gun-grabbing. I'd love it if all personal firearms one day vanished from the Earth and peace reigned, but that's nowhere near realistic. Gun-grabbing from law-abiding citizens is equally silly. Living in the slummier parts of Toronto has shown me that even in Canada, if you want a handgun, you can acquire one - no questions asked. The only choice left is to equalize one gun with another. Or develop a prescient police force.

Kucinich would have possibly gotten my vote until I ran into his stance of free trade. If that isn't the model of the stereotypical Democrat politician with an even weaker grasp on finances than his Republican counterparts... Anyone who thinks canceling NAFTA is a smart thing to do for anyone needs to grow a brain and possibly go back to school. We tried a protectionist stance with our national airline carrier. I think they've now been bailed out three times by the feds and are still in receivership? Protectionism = Growing lazy and bloated. If you can't cut it internationally, then get the fsck out of the market.

Lastly, his Homeland Security stance. IMO America would be wasting its overwhelming capability of exerting force by sitting back and waiting for the world to agree upon a plan of action before getting into gear. It took the friggin' invasion of Kuwait for the UN as a whole to act a year later, and even then they balked at actually deposing the guy. Pathetic. Multilateralism and world politics simply don't mix.

So while I personally would place a vote elsewhere, the guy really that extreme. I'd just have to assume that the Dems would take him into a room out back and beat some sense into him regarding financials before letting him come anywhere close to winning a primary. That would constitute a pretty electable candidate.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Condor

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Condor

Originally posted by: conjur
As long as the Swiftboat liars and their GOP backers are pushing out ads filled with lies and deception, then MoveOn.org should keep right on doing what they're doing. Besides, hth reads Rolling Stone anymore?

The problem with liberals is that they think anything that doesn't meet their agenda is a pack of lies and that keeps them from seeing the truth in any issue. The truth is that Kerry is an opportunistic coward. Four months, three Purple Hearts and one self inflected. Some hero!

And that pile of BS has *what* to do with this thread?

Oh yeah....*nothing*

I don't think Swiftboat met your agenda. That ties my post to the thread.

I was referring to these groups. The Swiftboaters are now funding the attack ads against the AARP. MoveOn.org has just as much right to counter the swiftboaters' lies.