IndyRacing
Member
Do yourself a favor and buy a bike over or atleast a 750. Make sure you have enough power to get you on and around the highways. A Honda Nighthawk 750 was my first bike. Wasn't enough for me. My next will be atleast a 900.
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Motorcycle questions
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olds
Elite Member
Counter steer = what The_good_guy said. Basically steer the motorcycle left to go right and right to go left. It's a subtle movement, not some jerky thing as on a bicycle. Inexperienced riders, when under emergency conditions, tend to steer like they were on a bicycle which will steer you into the object that you are trying to avoid. And I always pretnd that I am invisable when I ride, assume that no one sees you because a lot of them won't.
C'DaleRider
Guest
A little more on countersteering:
"Everyone who has driven a motorcycle has experienced it, the MSF classes mention (but don't explain) it, and motorcyclists discuss it all the time. But what is it, really? How does it work? Why does it work? All questions I will try to deal with in this discussion.
At very slow speeds we steer a motorcycle by turning the handlebar in the direction we wish to go. We can only do that at speeds of less than about 5 MPH. At any higher speed we do the exact opposite, whether we realize it or not. For example, assuming we want to turn to the right, we actually TRY to turn the handlebar left. This results in the front wheel leaning to the right and, as a result of the lean of the wheel, a turn to the right. This is counter-steering.
Why is it that we don't get confused regardless of our speed? Because we have learned that steering a motorcycle is an effortless chore. That attempt to turn the handlebar to the left FEELS like we are pushing the right grip rather than pulling on the left one. It feels like that because the harder we push it, the more the motorcycle turns to the right and, thus, it feels like the right grip is pushing back at you that much harder. In other words, we quickly learn to associate counter-steering feedback with the hand closest to the direction in which we wish to turn. Further, even a little bit of experience shows that counter-steering is essentially effortless while trying to turn the handlebar in the direction you want to go is virtually impossible. Humans are relatively fast studies, after all.
It takes only a modest familiarity with a gyroscope to understand counter-steering - at least to understand how most people believe it starts to work. The phenomenon is called Gyroscopic Precession. This is what happens when a lateral force is applied to the axis of a spinning gyroscope. The spinning gyroscope translates the force vector ninety degrees off the direction of spin. Thus, if we try to turn our front wheel to the left, the force we use appears as a lateral force forward against the axle on the right side and this is translated into a force that tries to lean the wheel to the right. Similarly, trying to turn the wheel to the right results in the wheel trying to lean to the left.
But gyroscopic precession is not a necessary component of counter-steering. No matter how slight, if your front wheel deviates from a straight path your motorcycle will begin to lean in the opposite direction. It is entirely accurate to assume that even without gyroscopic precession, the act of steering the front wheel out from under the bike would start counter-steering in the opposite direction. This is a result of steering geometry - rake. You can observe it at a complete stop. Just turn your handlebars in one direction and you will see that your bike leans in the opposite direction as a result.
In the case of a motorcycle, your handlebar input is immediately translated by gyroscopic precession into a lean in the opposite direction. Since your front wheel is attached to the bike's frame, the body of the bike also attempts to lean. It is the lean of the BIKE that overwhelms the handlebar effort and drags the front wheel over with it - gyroscopic precession merely starts the process and soon becomes inconsequential in the outcome."
Taken from HERE.
"Everyone who has driven a motorcycle has experienced it, the MSF classes mention (but don't explain) it, and motorcyclists discuss it all the time. But what is it, really? How does it work? Why does it work? All questions I will try to deal with in this discussion.
At very slow speeds we steer a motorcycle by turning the handlebar in the direction we wish to go. We can only do that at speeds of less than about 5 MPH. At any higher speed we do the exact opposite, whether we realize it or not. For example, assuming we want to turn to the right, we actually TRY to turn the handlebar left. This results in the front wheel leaning to the right and, as a result of the lean of the wheel, a turn to the right. This is counter-steering.
Why is it that we don't get confused regardless of our speed? Because we have learned that steering a motorcycle is an effortless chore. That attempt to turn the handlebar to the left FEELS like we are pushing the right grip rather than pulling on the left one. It feels like that because the harder we push it, the more the motorcycle turns to the right and, thus, it feels like the right grip is pushing back at you that much harder. In other words, we quickly learn to associate counter-steering feedback with the hand closest to the direction in which we wish to turn. Further, even a little bit of experience shows that counter-steering is essentially effortless while trying to turn the handlebar in the direction you want to go is virtually impossible. Humans are relatively fast studies, after all.
It takes only a modest familiarity with a gyroscope to understand counter-steering - at least to understand how most people believe it starts to work. The phenomenon is called Gyroscopic Precession. This is what happens when a lateral force is applied to the axis of a spinning gyroscope. The spinning gyroscope translates the force vector ninety degrees off the direction of spin. Thus, if we try to turn our front wheel to the left, the force we use appears as a lateral force forward against the axle on the right side and this is translated into a force that tries to lean the wheel to the right. Similarly, trying to turn the wheel to the right results in the wheel trying to lean to the left.
But gyroscopic precession is not a necessary component of counter-steering. No matter how slight, if your front wheel deviates from a straight path your motorcycle will begin to lean in the opposite direction. It is entirely accurate to assume that even without gyroscopic precession, the act of steering the front wheel out from under the bike would start counter-steering in the opposite direction. This is a result of steering geometry - rake. You can observe it at a complete stop. Just turn your handlebars in one direction and you will see that your bike leans in the opposite direction as a result.
In the case of a motorcycle, your handlebar input is immediately translated by gyroscopic precession into a lean in the opposite direction. Since your front wheel is attached to the bike's frame, the body of the bike also attempts to lean. It is the lean of the BIKE that overwhelms the handlebar effort and drags the front wheel over with it - gyroscopic precession merely starts the process and soon becomes inconsequential in the outcome."
Taken from HERE.
RedRooster
Diamond Member
<< I'm going countersteering tonight.😀 >>
You're not a man till you can do a "Garry McCoy". 🙂
edit- forgot the link. hehe
JeffreyLebowski
Lifer
<< Do yourself a favor and buy a bike over or atleast a 750. Make sure you have enough power to get you on and around the highways. A Honda Nighthawk 750 was my first bike. Wasn't enough for me. My next will be atleast a 900. >>
DO NOT GET ABOVE 600cc.
No matter what people tell you. a 500cc bike has more than enough power to get you in trouble with the law. A 250cc has enough power to for the freeway, but as said before you will grow out of it quickly. Try asking the guys over atSB.N
about your first bike. I hang out there when I'm not here. I got a 600cc as my first bike and it has plenty of power.
The Stigenator
Lifer
<< I'm going countersteering tonight.😀 >>
Just came back from some twisty's.. got a little bit cold after a while.. but it was good while it lasted.
I thought I was going to be pulled over tonite, there were cops all over GlenOaks Blvd. I was waiting for the light to turn green so I could take a u-turn somewhere on glenoaks and sure enough there was a cop on the right.. oh well no biggie.. then I check my mirror, and there is a cop behind me.. and he is checking something on his "display" aka: probably running my plates.
That was scary, I take my U-turn and there are 2 more cops....
I did not get pulled over, however I was afraid I would especially since i was doing 50+ in a 35.
The Stigenator
Lifer
<< Do yourself a favor and buy a bike over or atleast a 750. Make sure you have enough power to get you on and around the highways. A Honda Nighthawk 750 was my first bike. Wasn't enough for me. My next will be atleast a 900. >>
The nighthawk 750 is a dog.. trust me.. While its plenty powerful, its not in teh class of "sports bikes". Dont get me wrong, its powerful, but compared to other 750cc bikes its a dog. Even a 750cc cruiser has more power than that.
You got lucky starting with the NightHawk.. I personally didnt like it. Too drabby for me, plus I didnt like the upright riding position (though back then I was all for it), compared to my present slant riding position that nighthawk would have sucked..
Anyway stay under 500cc if your getting a bike.. going over 600cc will increase insurance rates.
Zenmervolt
Elite member
<< I am going to take a riding/safety motorcycle class. After that I would like to get a good entry level street bike.
1) What is a good choice and how much should I expect to spend?
2) I saw some bikes like the Honda Rebel and the Yamaha Virago 250. They were both 250cc. Is 250cc to small? Can you ride on the highway with that kinda bike?
3) Also, what is a V-Twin? I keep seeing this term, but have no idea what it means. >>
250cc is way too small for a highway bike. I would say that 450cc is the minimum for a bike that will be used on a highway. I have an '82 Honda CB450SC (Nighthawk 450), and it maxes out around 85mph, but I would not want to run it over 70mph for any extended period of time. A 450 is a great learning bike, big enough that it doesn't feel like a moped or a scooter, but small enough that it can be handled easily.
ZV
EDIT: 250cc STANDARDS are not good highway bikes, 250cc SPORT bikes are fine on the highway. I should have made that distinction originally. The Honda Rebel is a standard, not sure about the Virago. I don't know much at all about sport bikes because I own and prefer standards.
If your looking for a 250cc bike, and you live within the US, there's only one choice for a fast sportbike and that is the Kawasaki EX250. I started riding in July, and this is the bike that I currently have. For me, this bike is plenty fast (I've had it up to around 105MPH actual) and it's very cheap to replace parts on. Since the end of July, I've put 6100mi on this bike. In stock form, the EX250 runs the 1/4 in the mid 14s and 0-60 in 5sec. For a person who is still learning, the EX250 is perfect. Although, if you weigh more than 170lbs and or taller than 6'6", you'll find the EX250 rather uncomfortable. I found that, to me, its funner to rev the piss out of a smaller engine than it is to run at a maximum of 1/3rd of a 600's potential. Sure, the EX250 will cruise perfectly fine at 70MPH (9k RPM's w/ 14.5k redline) and will very easily kick up to 100MPH (12.5k RPM's) and sit there without a problem. V-Twin engines run like crap until you kick the RPM's up. The EX250's engine loves to hit the rev limiter, and it'll do it without any hiccup, and continue to cruise right on the edge at 14k RPM's.
1min video of my Ninja
For further images, you can check out the "My Baby Ninja" link in my signature.
For parts, this bike is extremely cheap to repair. The engine hasn't changed in 12 years, so consider how large the used parts market is for this thing. I was recently checking out prices: I can get a set of barely used carberators for $100 (each diaphragm costs $105 new), and a complete cylinder head for $250. If you somehow blow the engine in your 250 (the engines last around 30-50k miles), you can find replacements with ~4k miles for $200. If you're like myself, I run the hell out of this bike and replace what parts break. So far, I haven't had to replace anything major.
BTW - I weigh 120lbs @ 17 years of age and I'm right at 6' in height. I fit this bike like a glove; If I had to, I could ride for several hundred miles without getting sore.
Also, if you're worried about getting blown around on the highway, you should know that weight and displacement has NOTHING to do with how much the wind blows you around. Cruisers will get blown around like rags on the highway, simply because they have no aerodynamic shell at all. Bikes with the super sport-type fairings generally have no problems in the wind. I live in Oklahoma, and we generally have 20-30mph winds during the fall. No problem at all! If you really want to know, coming from experienced riders, the smaller super sports are actually very easy to drive in high wind.
1min video of my Ninja
For further images, you can check out the "My Baby Ninja" link in my signature.
For parts, this bike is extremely cheap to repair. The engine hasn't changed in 12 years, so consider how large the used parts market is for this thing. I was recently checking out prices: I can get a set of barely used carberators for $100 (each diaphragm costs $105 new), and a complete cylinder head for $250. If you somehow blow the engine in your 250 (the engines last around 30-50k miles), you can find replacements with ~4k miles for $200. If you're like myself, I run the hell out of this bike and replace what parts break. So far, I haven't had to replace anything major.
BTW - I weigh 120lbs @ 17 years of age and I'm right at 6' in height. I fit this bike like a glove; If I had to, I could ride for several hundred miles without getting sore.
Also, if you're worried about getting blown around on the highway, you should know that weight and displacement has NOTHING to do with how much the wind blows you around. Cruisers will get blown around like rags on the highway, simply because they have no aerodynamic shell at all. Bikes with the super sport-type fairings generally have no problems in the wind. I live in Oklahoma, and we generally have 20-30mph winds during the fall. No problem at all! If you really want to know, coming from experienced riders, the smaller super sports are actually very easy to drive in high wind.
The Stigenator
Lifer
<FONT face=Verdana size=1>Zenmervolt> while the 250cc standards have a top speed of around 90MPh.. its plenty for riding on teh freeway, and the 250cc sports (ninja250) has about 115Mph limiter
THe problem is not with freeway riding.. but rather with street riding. Compared to freeway riding, street riding is a lot more complex and that should be the stepping stone before even taking on to the freeway. If you cant corner on the street you cant corner on freeways.
And by the way the Rebel and the Virago are Cruisers not standards.
</FONT>
THe problem is not with freeway riding.. but rather with street riding. Compared to freeway riding, street riding is a lot more complex and that should be the stepping stone before even taking on to the freeway. If you cant corner on the street you cant corner on freeways.
And by the way the Rebel and the Virago are Cruisers not standards.
</FONT>
BoberFett
Lifer
Would all you sport bikers get out of here with your misinformation!
500cc is not a big bike. In fact it's downright puny. My bike at 805cc is about as small as I'd ever ride, and as far as insurance I only pay $20/mo. for full coverage. So don't listen to these guys saying 600 is the cutoff for cheap insurance. Sport bikes and cruisers are different worlds. I know guys who ride 1500s and don't pay exorbitant amounts for insurance.
If you only want to spend $2500, definitely buy used if you can find something you like. Something like a Rebel will only leave you wanting more. They are small not only in displacement but small sized frames as well. You'll feel hunched up while riding instead of relaxed.
500cc is not a big bike. In fact it's downright puny. My bike at 805cc is about as small as I'd ever ride, and as far as insurance I only pay $20/mo. for full coverage. So don't listen to these guys saying 600 is the cutoff for cheap insurance. Sport bikes and cruisers are different worlds. I know guys who ride 1500s and don't pay exorbitant amounts for insurance.
If you only want to spend $2500, definitely buy used if you can find something you like. Something like a Rebel will only leave you wanting more. They are small not only in displacement but small sized frames as well. You'll feel hunched up while riding instead of relaxed.
He's right, although there are many variables for ins rates.
Such as location.
Bober, living in St. Cloud, Minnesota let's say, would pay less money than I, in Los Angeles, CA for the same bike.
All motorcycles are cool. There's no need to start "Sport Bikers this" and "Cruiser guys that".
btw-I've ridden all sorts. Sport, Cruiser, Standard, even dirt (although at under 100cc, I can't say I have much dirt experience) 🙂 And some day when I'm rich, I'll buy a Harley.🙂 (joke)
Such as location.
Bober, living in St. Cloud, Minnesota let's say, would pay less money than I, in Los Angeles, CA for the same bike.
All motorcycles are cool. There's no need to start "Sport Bikers this" and "Cruiser guys that".
btw-I've ridden all sorts. Sport, Cruiser, Standard, even dirt (although at under 100cc, I can't say I have much dirt experience) 🙂 And some day when I'm rich, I'll buy a Harley.🙂 (joke)
Hayabusa Rider
Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Hmmm... OK, first things first. We have to talk apples and apples here. You say you want a street bike? I assume a cruser type then. Be a great bike for NEXT time. Something like an old 500 cc Suzuki would be great for you. Remember, you are going to have to pass a test to get you license. Riding a 600 lb cruser is a hard way to do that. How much do you weigh? How far do you plan to ride at one time? All these factor in. At 250 lbs, a 250 cc bike wouldn't allow me to get out of the way of a semi bearing down on me. Lots of experienced riders here, with good points, however, don't get a 750 or larger machine for your first time. It's either too heavy if its a cruser, or too fast if it's a sport bike. Your chances of getting through the first 6 months without injury are slim. Oh, are you taking BOTH classes? Sign up for the second, since they teach technique there. A good thing. Anyway, let us know more and good luck
Zenmervolt
Elite member
<<And by the way the Rebel and the Virago are Cruisers not standards.>>
The Rebel may be called a cruiser, but it's physically only slightly larger than a moped. (Yes, I've seen a new Rebel.) And given the fact that the Rebel is basically good only as a city commuter bike, i wouldn't call it a cruiser. Manufacturer labels aside, to me a cruiser should be over 600cc with the ability to torque itself down the road (as in use top gear at all speeds above 20), an ability the Rebel certainly does not have. I have a hard time believing that a 250cc standard would run to 90mph. My 450 maxes out around 85-90 in 5th at redline (9,500 RPM), but slows down if I shift into overdrive (6th). I'm certain that a 250cc sportbike would run well over 110, I never disputed that. I would not ever want to ride a Rebel 250 (the older Rebel 450's look nice though) personally, the bike is way too small for me to feel safe on. A 250cc sportbike would not be a problem though. The intent in my previous post was just to say that a 250cc standard or cruiser would not be a good choice for extended highway riding since cruising at 75 mph has the bike working very hard and that will tire the rider quickly, while a 250cc sport bike would be fine for extended highway riding. As I said, I don't pay a lot of attention to sport bikes because they aren't my style, but I have nothing against sport bikes. The more people on bikes the better, I don't care what kind you're riding. If he is looking at standards/cruisers I would say to start with an older Honda Nighthawk 450. It weighs about 400 lbs wet and it's very easy to learn on, while also being a bike that you don't outgrow too quickly. At least, that's what worked for me. Other people may prefer a different bike to start on.
ZV
The Rebel may be called a cruiser, but it's physically only slightly larger than a moped. (Yes, I've seen a new Rebel.) And given the fact that the Rebel is basically good only as a city commuter bike, i wouldn't call it a cruiser. Manufacturer labels aside, to me a cruiser should be over 600cc with the ability to torque itself down the road (as in use top gear at all speeds above 20), an ability the Rebel certainly does not have. I have a hard time believing that a 250cc standard would run to 90mph. My 450 maxes out around 85-90 in 5th at redline (9,500 RPM), but slows down if I shift into overdrive (6th). I'm certain that a 250cc sportbike would run well over 110, I never disputed that. I would not ever want to ride a Rebel 250 (the older Rebel 450's look nice though) personally, the bike is way too small for me to feel safe on. A 250cc sportbike would not be a problem though. The intent in my previous post was just to say that a 250cc standard or cruiser would not be a good choice for extended highway riding since cruising at 75 mph has the bike working very hard and that will tire the rider quickly, while a 250cc sport bike would be fine for extended highway riding. As I said, I don't pay a lot of attention to sport bikes because they aren't my style, but I have nothing against sport bikes. The more people on bikes the better, I don't care what kind you're riding. If he is looking at standards/cruisers I would say to start with an older Honda Nighthawk 450. It weighs about 400 lbs wet and it's very easy to learn on, while also being a bike that you don't outgrow too quickly. At least, that's what worked for me. Other people may prefer a different bike to start on.
ZV
Good post. That reminds me; anyone remember the Yamaha Route 66? (I don't know if they still make them) Simliar to the Rebel 250. Man, I lusted after that bike when I was like 14 or something.
My friend and I tried to teach his gf to ride one of those. I remember being on that thing and feeling like at anytime it was just gonna crumble underneath me.🙂
My friend and I tried to teach his gf to ride one of those. I remember being on that thing and feeling like at anytime it was just gonna crumble underneath me.🙂
My 2¢: Kawasaki EX500. Good aftermarket/market since it's used in racing. Light but not blown too much around on the freeway, though it's not that steady. Easy upkeep. It's a sporty-ish bike (read: wrists get tired, at least mine did). Half-a-liter is plenty. Watch out for gravel. Countersteering is explained in detail during the MSF course, at which you should thank your instructor for volunteering. A quarter-liter is too small, imo, but it depends on where you ride.
Ride safe. And join the AMA.
Ride safe. And join the AMA.
IndyRacing
Member
<<
<< Do yourself a favor and buy a bike over or atleast a 750. Make sure you have enough power to get you on and around the highways. >>
A Suzuki GSX-R600 has over 100HP and a top speed in excess of 150MPH. Think that'll do it?? 😉 >>
Nope need more speed. I am telling you from experience. If you have any gonads and any common sense you will be fine. Just don't lose respect for your bike. Dude I have ridden friends ZX-11 and 500cc Ninja's. The 500 can barely pull me to 130mph. The ZX-11 had no problem at all.
Also you little sissy I am a big guy. I'm 6'2" about 217lbs. Just the shortness of a 600 makes it uncomfortable to ride. Now an 1100 or a 900 I fit fine. Try out different bikes until you fall in love with one; then buy her.
These things kill me!
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