People need to stop judging MMO success by WoW.
Ultima Online has been kicking for over 10 years now. For most of its life it had a sub 250k subscriber base.
Honestly, like few others in the thread, I feel developers should go back and tap that tree UO started.
You had UO, which was then followed by EQ and AC.
Every game since EQ, has pretty much been a derivative of EQ. Now we are getting to the point of, EQ without the grind. A hint to all the developers out there. Take out all the grind, your game wont survive. It will be played by the people that need instant gratification, who will jump ship for the next shiny object.
Skill based with skill trees IMHO will always been better than level/xp based crap.
Dare i say the language used reminds me of shadowbane...
The game they cant even get people to play for free now.
The game they cant even get people to play for free now.
The problem with shadowbane is not the playstyle, it's the bugged to hell client that runs slow even on modern computers and looks like crap. Not to mention serious basic bugs like melee synch that have been in the game since release, and constant duping of gold which is really the only thing you need to "succeed" in the game because enough gold will buy you anything.
This game could be an exact clone of shadowbane, minus the bugs and dupes, and it would be a success. However, from the sounds of it it's going to be a lot more than that.
*And actually, full loot was what shadowbane was missing. It prided itself on being a hardcore pvp game, but it was still carebearish compared to the real pvp that was in UO in the beginning, where death meant you dropped everything you had.
Inspector Jihad
Lifer
- Apr 17, 2005
- 13,465
- 3
- 81
KlokWyze
Diamond Member
Could't agree more. the death penalties in all games are non-existent... even single players games. The feeling of danger will make it 10x more exciting.
Ever play DII in hardcore mode. Die once and your character is gone for good. Or, D1 when you died you dropped all you loot, and the enemies stayed near your body. So, if you got swarmed and died and couldn't get back to your stuff without any equipment you lost it all.
That's what I was thinking.
Beyond that, I am getting kind of tired of all the Tolkien style universes in MMOs. I would like to see more post apocalyptic universes.
That's not post apocalyptic though. That plus I doubt I would be willing to pay a monthly fee for Warhammer either. I don't think I would have enough fun playing it for that long.
sourceninja
Diamond Member
- Mar 8, 2005
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Malladine
Diamond Member
- Mar 31, 2003
- 4,618
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Originally posted by: Xavier434
That's not post apocalyptic though. That plus I doubt I would be willing to pay a monthly fee for Warhammer either. I don't think I would have enough fun playing it for that long.
you say that like you've heard something about a warhammer 40k MMO! And it kind of it post-apocalyptic, but i think you mean Fallout style right?
Far as lore goes there's a lot more for Warhammer 40k than, say, Warcraft.
Originally posted by: Malladine
Originally posted by: Xavier434
That's not post apocalyptic though. That plus I doubt I would be willing to pay a monthly fee for Warhammer either. I don't think I would have enough fun playing it for that long.
you say that like you've heard something about a warhammer 40k MMO! And it kind of it post-apocalyptic, but i think you mean Fallout style right?
Far as lore goes there's a lot more for Warhammer 40k than, say, Warcraft.
I have never played Fallout so I really cannot say. I am thinking post apocalyptic in a Hellgate London kind of way, but "done right" so to speak. I don't mean mimic the game play of HGL either. One could do that but it is not necessary. I just want it to be dark, hellish in many areas, and take place here on Earth or a planet like it. I don't want anything that is way in the past nor do I want anything too far into the future. I am ok with the technology being more futuristic because that is just a lot of fun, but not in the sense where the society and everything around it is like star wars if that makes any sense. At least, that is where I would like the idea to start in terms of the universe it takes place in. It could easily be changed quite a bit and still fit what it is I am looking for.
HumblePie
Lifer
- Oct 30, 2000
- 14,665
- 440
- 126
The reason many people don't like the idea of "real consequences" for pvp is the fat that in ALL PVP games, and I mean ALL, it's never about pvp. It's HvH, or hacker versus hacker. Who ever cheats the most wins and if you don't cheat you always lose.
I don't care what game you name every single stinking game ever made in existance has been cheated. All pvp does is force the cheats to be even more proliferate, especially the more hardcore or rewarding the cheating gains for the player.
This is the reason I never play a FPS in multiplayer mode past the first two months and even that is pushing it. I'll do lan parties and a few private servers here and there with people I can trust, but that's it. The majority of players cheat and I don't put up it. This is a big reason hardcore pvp in the RPG genre will always fail. Since it will always fail, and I mean ALWAYS in the end, there is no way to stop cheaters ever as such it was always fail, and failing means losing customers and thus revenue. No company in their right minds is going to do that.
The reason UO got away with it is because of the scale of the game. UO never had a major subscriber base and never needed it to make money. Just look at the game. It's was simplistic in coding style even in the early 90's let alone two decades later. Four chimpanzee's and a 300lb pimp faces 15 year old that has taken 2 computer science course from high school can maintain that game. It didn't take much more to program it in the first place. You simply can't compare a game made with a budget of a few thousand bucks compare with games today that have HOLLYWOOD ACTION BLOCKBUSTER MOVIE budgets. Seriously. Look at the ultimate MMO failure. Vanguard. Game was a whooping what? 33+ million bucks to make? sold allegedly 200K copies and before the month was out had about 20K subscribers. The fact that sony even bought out sigil, let alone continues to sink money into that game amazes me.
Those dreaming of truly open PVP only for a game will continue dreaming the rest of their lives. Because unless all you dreamers come together, all 12 of you or so, and write the game yourself, it's not going to happen. Be very happy if you get a server dedicated at all to that horrid rule set. Because Hacker versus Hacker rule set doesn't draw the average, or above average or below average (depending on perspective) gamer to the table. If it doesn't draw customers (besides the dozen or so not playing UO), then it ain't going to be done.
Now for the original discussion of this game, I'm not holding my breath on this one. This game so far sounds like the other 5 or 6 DOZEN MMOs that never made it past the drawing board.
I don't care what game you name every single stinking game ever made in existance has been cheated. All pvp does is force the cheats to be even more proliferate, especially the more hardcore or rewarding the cheating gains for the player.
This is the reason I never play a FPS in multiplayer mode past the first two months and even that is pushing it. I'll do lan parties and a few private servers here and there with people I can trust, but that's it. The majority of players cheat and I don't put up it. This is a big reason hardcore pvp in the RPG genre will always fail. Since it will always fail, and I mean ALWAYS in the end, there is no way to stop cheaters ever as such it was always fail, and failing means losing customers and thus revenue. No company in their right minds is going to do that.
The reason UO got away with it is because of the scale of the game. UO never had a major subscriber base and never needed it to make money. Just look at the game. It's was simplistic in coding style even in the early 90's let alone two decades later. Four chimpanzee's and a 300lb pimp faces 15 year old that has taken 2 computer science course from high school can maintain that game. It didn't take much more to program it in the first place. You simply can't compare a game made with a budget of a few thousand bucks compare with games today that have HOLLYWOOD ACTION BLOCKBUSTER MOVIE budgets. Seriously. Look at the ultimate MMO failure. Vanguard. Game was a whooping what? 33+ million bucks to make? sold allegedly 200K copies and before the month was out had about 20K subscribers. The fact that sony even bought out sigil, let alone continues to sink money into that game amazes me.
Those dreaming of truly open PVP only for a game will continue dreaming the rest of their lives. Because unless all you dreamers come together, all 12 of you or so, and write the game yourself, it's not going to happen. Be very happy if you get a server dedicated at all to that horrid rule set. Because Hacker versus Hacker rule set doesn't draw the average, or above average or below average (depending on perspective) gamer to the table. If it doesn't draw customers (besides the dozen or so not playing UO), then it ain't going to be done.
Now for the original discussion of this game, I'm not holding my breath on this one. This game so far sounds like the other 5 or 6 DOZEN MMOs that never made it past the drawing board.
How does the PVP in UO work? Never played it. If your character dies unresurrectably then how do you advance without someone ganking the level million uberdeath you just spent a year building up.
I can see pvp where you lose all your gear and get rez'd at your home town or local temple. Also if this is the case you should only be able to lose that amount of gold you were foolish enough to carry on you. There would have to be some banking system for savings and withdrawls.
Likelyhood is that your gear would be sold anyway because the victor probably had better gear anyway.
Also there has to be some negative outcome for starting a fight in town or attacking a significantly weaker opponent.
I can see pvp where you lose all your gear and get rez'd at your home town or local temple. Also if this is the case you should only be able to lose that amount of gold you were foolish enough to carry on you. There would have to be some banking system for savings and withdrawls.
Likelyhood is that your gear would be sold anyway because the victor probably had better gear anyway.
Also there has to be some negative outcome for starting a fight in town or attacking a significantly weaker opponent.
Some facts about wow:
Most of their 10 million subscribers are NOT in the US.
Many people have multiple accounts.
A good portion of their subscribers are gold farmers.
WoW is the only MMO game that's aggressively advertising in mainstream media - most other MMOs are simply relying on word-of-mouth.
Most of their 10 million subscribers are NOT in the US.
Many people have multiple accounts.
A good portion of their subscribers are gold farmers.
WoW is the only MMO game that's aggressively advertising in mainstream media - most other MMOs are simply relying on word-of-mouth.
LOL so you are one of those nubs who accuses everyone of cheating in-game! Most people who play FPS don't cheat. Cheaters are the vast vast minority.
If you're playing those free MMO's that are churned out on low budgets from Korea or whatever, then yeah, cheating is a problem. They didn't invest in quality anti-cheating countermeasures...but with Guild Wars, WoW or most of the other well-maintained games, cheating isn't much of a problem. Sure there are exploits, but the players who abuse them are typically reported and suspended/banned quickly. That said, I don't think dying in a game should have extreme consequences...because after all, it is a GAME and it is supposed to be fun. Rather than penalizing someone for dying, there should be an incentive for surviving as well as helping your teammates stay alive.
Simply because you are outplayed doesn't mean "everyone is cheating". Have you considered that you may suck at FPS games? Then you'll say that you do "ok" at LAN parties or whatever...but the people at LAN parties are not necessarily good FPSers either. Don't whine about lack of skill...cheaters are relatively easy to spot, and a lot of times there are none.
Just goes to show that the size of a game's budget is not directly proportional to its success in the market. Usually its the fundamentals of a game that make it fun, or not...and those elements cannot be purchased by developers.
Most people will be happy with a PvP implementation that does not leave them feeling like one character class has an unfair advantage over another...and smart developers don't try to please EVERYONE, they try to please MOST PEOPLE.
Malladine
Diamond Member
- Mar 31, 2003
- 4,618
- 0
- 71
It's full PvP, open entirely, even in cities, except in cities you're almost guaranteed to die if you initiate an attack due to godlike guards who basically teleport on top of you and one hit ya, lol. But hey, ppl used to still try
In UO '97-99 (that's important, they took away a lot of the excitement after splitting the world into a carebear land and the regular land in 2000), anyway, when you die your corpse, and everything you were carrying and had equipped, falls to the ground and stays there. You appear as a ghost and must run to a temple in town or find a "wandering priest" in the wilderness to resurrect (sp?). You can then go back to your corpse, if you know where it is, and gather your belongings if they're still there. This is dependant on what killed you, some humanoid creatures randomly take an item from your corpse when they kill you, and keep that item...it's fun killing an orc and finding something it had taken from someone else
Course, you could also hunt the thing down and take back your item too.
Even players aren't guaranteed to take everything, often I got back to find only some or even none of my gear looted. If you're a mage, you have to carry reagents and those are almost always taken (again, if you're killed by a player or a player finds your body).
I still remember a time when i was just exploring a forest anad ran across a body, full geared. I looted so much i couldn't move so essentially i had to drag the guy's breastplate into town, LOL. Side note: it's a lot of fun just looting people in general, who knows what they might have. And sometimes it's interesting to see what some people carry around...i've seen bags full of fish, parts of furniture, body parts (before they nancified that...)
Okay, yes, there IS a bank
Very key, as you pointed out already. On a scale of 1-10 of gear dependancy for player effectiveness, with WoW being a 9, UO would be a 2. You could equip a set of player made armor and player made weapon and be quite effective. So you'd plan accordingly and have spare stuff in the bank!Proof of each accusation? I am not trying to claim that you are incorrect. I just don't believe everything I read on the internet at the drop of a hat.
Robert Munch
Senior member
- Oct 11, 2006
- 899
- 0
- 76
Haha I remember having to drag stuff back to town also and when passerby's had seen what I was up to, they literally stand there and wait for me to drop whatever heavy objects I had and try to take it from me.Originally posted by: Malladine
It's full PvP, open entirely, even in cities, except in cities you're almost guaranteed to die if you initiate an attack due to godlike guards who basically teleport on top of you and one hit ya, lol. But hey, ppl used to still try
In UO pre '97 (that's important, they took away a lot of the excitement after splitting the world into a carebear land and the regular land), anyway, when you die your corpse, and everything you were carrying and had equipped, falls to the ground and stays there. You appear as a ghost and must run to a temple in town or find a "wandering priest" in the wilderness to resurrect (sp?). You can then go back to your corpse, if you know where it is, and gather your belongings if they're still there. This is dependant on what killed you, some humanoid creatures randomly take an item from your corpse when they kill you, and keep that item...it's fun killing an orc and finding something it had taken from someone else
Course, you could also hunt the thing down and take back your item too.
Even players aren't guaranteed to take everything, often I got back to find only some or even none of my gear looted. If you're a mage, you have to carry reagents and those are almost always taken (again, if you're killed by a player or a player finds your body).
I still remember a time when i was just exploring a forest anad ran across a body, full geared. I looted so much i couldn't move so essentially i had to drag the guy's breastplate into town, LOL. Side note: it's a lot of fun just looting people in general, who knows what they might have. And sometimes it's interesting to see what some people carry around...i've seen bags full of fish, parts of furniture, body parts (before they nancified that...)
Okay, yes, there IS a bank
At times I was very lucky to cast a successful gate overloaded once in a while which went to the town bank roof in Brit with the words LOL above my char when the guy would follow me through the gate and as I safely deposit whatever belongings I had and then watch the helpless bastard get stuck on the roof as I safely teleported down.
I miss thiefing that's too bad no other game implemented a true thief class like UO had, it really made things interesting for AFK's idling and PVP battles.
Malladine
Diamond Member
- Mar 31, 2003
- 4,618
- 0
- 71
lol, good stuff, i loved that so much was possible in UO. Devs really should try again on these lines. Thievery, damn right man. Everything was just so cool. The tough parts just made it all better. The bad with the good = a complete experience.
Another point about PvP: there were ranks on a scale of Good to Evil (represented among various way with a blue name vs red name, white name for neutral), Dreadlord to uhmm the opposite on the Good end. If you found yourself on the Evil side of the scale (acheived through killing those on the good side), people could kill you without penalty, plus improve their standing with the forces of Good. If you became very "Evil" you couldn't go into town and basically needed your own house/tower/castle (yes, players bought deeds to houses and more to place wherever they wanted them) to support your shenanigans. Awesome huh?
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