More stay the course from Bush

[International Machine Consortium]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/10/26/bush.immigration.ap/index.html

"A fence will slow people down by a minute or two, but if you don't have the agents to stop them it does no good. We're not talking about some impenetrable barrier," T.J. Bonner, president of the National Border Patrol Council, a union representing Border Patrol agents, said Wednesday.

Customs and Border Protection statistics show that apprehensions at border crossings are down 8 percent nationally for the budget year that just ended, Bonner said. Apprehensions were up in the San Diego sector, he said, an area of the nearly 2,000-mile border that has the most fencing.

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"The choice we were presented was: Are we going to vote to enhance border security, or against it?" Cornyn said. "I think that's how the vote was viewed."

When presented with stark choices ("here's my bad idea, or you can be with the commies") they go with the bad idea.
Ridiculous. More BS absurdity from this president.
A recent poll shows the American people want more cops down there, not a stupid fence that won't work.

Although a majority of Americans support increasing the number of Border Patrol agents along the U.S.-Mexico border, most do not support building a 700-mile fence along the border, according to a CNN poll released Wednesday.

Seventy-four percent of 1,013 poll respondents said they would be in favor of more U.S. agents along the border. But only 45 percent said they wanted a border fence built, according to the survey conducted by Opinion Research Corp. on behalf of CNN.

And yet, as with Iraq, it's Stay the course for this president.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/10/24/immigration.poll/

 

[EagleKeeper]

And 74% of the peoiple have no idea of the terrain that exists where the fence is proposed.

Putting border agents every 50 meters 24/7 with an actual backup squad every 500 meters will be the only way. One could replace the inital agent with technology; but you still need the interdiction team and then the maintenance of the sensor units.

 

[International Machine Consortium]

You're not familiar with Helicopters, airplanes, heat signature detection and other technologies? So, interdiction team and maintenance crews for sensors. Sounds like a great way to spend my tax dollars. A stupid fence that will do no good (according to the people on the ground down there)? Not a good way to spend my tax dollars.

Also, you have no evidence to support your assertion that poll respondents are ignorant of the facts surrounding the issue. None. So put that old chestnut back in the closet.

This is strictly a political maneuver designed for maximum base pandering.

 

[ayabe]

Every couple months they discover tunnels leading into houses on the US side, a fence won't do anything.

 

[International Machine Consortium]

But it makes Bush' misguided (I have more pejorative terms but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt atm) base happy because it makes it appear as though he is actually doing something when in fact he is not.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: International Machine Consortium
You're not familiar with Helicopters, airplanes, heat signature detection and other technologies? So, interdiction team and maintenance crews for sensors. Sounds like a great way to spend my tax dollars. A stupid fence that will do no good (according to the people on the ground down there)? Not a good way to spend my tax dollars.

Also, you have no evidence to support your assertion that poll respondents are ignorant of the facts surrounding the issue. None. So put that old chestnut back in the closet.

This is strictly a political maneuver designed for maximum base pandering.

Happen to notice my option method of replacing the initial agent: technology

However, there is also the cost of the technology and the howls of another no-bid maintenance contract to support such technology.

I will stand my my assertion of the fact that few of the people polled have no knowledge of the terrain that exists along the border. It is not open flat desert where you can see for miles (unlike the movies and commercials)

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: International Machine Consortium
But it makes Bush' misguided (I have more pejorative terms but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt atm) base happy because it makes it appear as though he is actually doing something when in fact he is not.

I will agree though that it is pandering to the base.

The only way to remove the issue is to remove the economic incentive and/or do what the Soviets did to segment Europe; that worked well (from their perspective) for 40 years

 

[International Machine Consortium]

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper

Originally posted by: International Machine Consortium
You're not familiar with Helicopters, airplanes, heat signature detection and other technologies? So, interdiction team and maintenance crews for sensors. Sounds like a great way to spend my tax dollars. A stupid fence that will do no good (according to the people on the ground down there)? Not a good way to spend my tax dollars.

Also, you have no evidence to support your assertion that poll respondents are ignorant of the facts surrounding the issue. None. So put that old chestnut back in the closet.

This is strictly a political maneuver designed for maximum base pandering.

Happen to notice my option method of replacing the initial agent: technology

However, there is also the cost of the technology and the howls of another no-bid maintenance contract to support such technology.

I will stand my my assertion of the fact that few of the people polled have no knowledge of the terrain that exists along the border. It is not open flat desert where you can see for miles (unlike the movies and commercials)

1. So I expanded on the possible technologies that could be leveraged. What's your point?

2. As if they won't be handing out kickbacks for the fence construction. What's that, chopped liver? That's another non-starter.

3. You can "stand by" it all you want, but you provide no evidence your assertion the poll respondents are ignorant of the facts. We may as well throw out every single political poll too? Hello?

Besides, the people on the ground out there don't want the fence!!!!! Is that not good enough for you? Or you know better than the agents on the ground?

 

[EagleKeeper]

I do not think a fence will do the job.

It will take technology to assist with interdiction; removal of the economic incentive; manpower alone can not combat the terrain.

A fence/scorched earth is only the last resort.

Increasing the amount of agents along the border will not stop the supply; more likely divert it to where the manpower is less intense.

 

[1EZduzit]

I thought they asked the Border Patrol what they needed and they said a fence?

If nothing else a fence is a symbloic deterent. It says come here legally or don't come here at all. What we need to do is punish the people who hire illegals AND send every illegal we catch either to jail or back to Mexico City. I don't care how long it takes or who ends up in jail.

What I know for sure is that I live over 1000 miles from the US/Mexico border and we have an illegal problem here. If we don't start doing something it going to spiral totally out of control, if it's not already.

 

[International Machine Consortium]

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
I do not think a fence will do the job.

It will take technology to assist with interdiction; removal of the economic incentive; manpower alone can not combat the terrain.

A fence/scorched earth is only the last resort.

Increasing the amount of agents along the border will not stop the supply; more likely divert it to where the manpower is less intense.

Well, we're pretty much on the same page then.

 

[International Machine Consortium]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
I thought they asked the Border Patrol what they needed and they said a fence?

If nothing else a fence is a symbloic deterent. It says come here legally or don't come here at all. What we need to do is punish the people who hire illegals AND send every illegal we catch either to jail or back to Mexico City. I don't care how long it takes or who ends up in jail.

What I know for sure is that I live over 1000 miles from the US/Mexico border and we have an illegal problem here. If we don't start doing something it going to spiral totally out of control, if it's not already.

Just so you know, if it were up to me, I'd support throwing every illegal out AND stop the flow of them into the country. Period.
I do not however support Bush signing yet another order to waste money and accomplish little more than pandering to his wild-eyed Christian fundamentalist base.
In reality Bush needs those people to get through, to keep his other "friend's" businesses viable, hence it's a phony idea whose time should never have come.

 

[catnap1972]

Originally posted by: International Machine Consortium

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
I do not think a fence will do the job.

It will take technology to assist with interdiction; removal of the economic incentive; manpower alone can not combat the terrain.

A fence/scorched earth is only the last resort.

Increasing the amount of agents along the border will not stop the supply; more likely divert it to where the manpower is less intense.

Well, we're pretty much on the same page then.

Agreed--if they're not going to do a thing to smack down the employers who are hiring these people, a purty brick wall isn't going to do a damn bit of good.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: catnap1972

Originally posted by: International Machine Consortium

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
I do not think a fence will do the job.

It will take technology to assist with interdiction; removal of the economic incentive; manpower alone can not combat the terrain.

A fence/scorched earth is only the last resort.

Increasing the amount of agents along the border will not stop the supply; more likely divert it to where the manpower is less intense.

Well, we're pretty much on the same page then.

Agreed--if they're not going to do a thing to smack down the employers who are hiring these people, a purty brick wall isn't going to do a damn bit of good.

Do both, but keep this in mind.

If you suddenly throw 20 million people out of work then you've the makings of civil unrest. They firmly believe this is their land, and they will likely fight to keep what we have allowed them to steal.

Then 30 years from now, their 50 million legal US children will remember their parent?s treatment and culture and they will enact the true cost to us of our actions today.

We are soon to learn what France is facing.

 

[OrganizedChaos]

i do not support a 700 mile fence along the border.

i support two 3000 mile fences with a 15 foot trench in between.

 

[CPA]

Nice way to distort a stat. Nowhere does it say that a majority does not support building the fence. It only states that 45% support it. How many of the remaining 55% are undecided?

 

[International Machine Consortium]

45% support it, 53% oppose it. I realize you're a CPA and all, but damn. Or did they wave the Diebold wand over it?

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: International Machine Consortium
45% support it, 53% oppose it. I realize you're a CPA and all, but damn. Or did they wave the Diebold wand over it?

Nice spin on the figures....so how many of the 55% are undecided or was it just more effective to just lump them all into being "opposed" catagorie?

 

[International Machine Consortium]

There's no spin. That's a fact. Those are the numbers provided by CNN. I suppose those supporting it got lumped in together too. Maybe some said, "well, if it is proven to work and covered the entire border, I support it." etc. What is your argument, that CNN is making this up? They hired a polling firm to do the work. I assume they know what they're doing.
Anyway, there is NO SPIN. THIS TRULY IS, THE SPIN FREE ZONE. (I thought that might help the right-wingers visualize).

 

[fitzov]

Just more pork for some Haliburton. Go conservatives!

 

[Drakkon]

This is not the 14th century....we are not fighting the mongolians...a wall just doesnt work anymore...:roll:

 

[CPA]

Originally posted by: International Machine Consortium
45% support it, 53% oppose it. I realize you're a CPA and all, but damn. Or did they wave the Diebold wand over it?

I read the article, I didn't see 53% opposition. Let me look again.

 

[CPA]

Okay, please tell me where is this article you see 53% oppose it:

CNN) -- Although a majority of Americans support increasing the number of Border Patrol agents along the U.S.-Mexico border, most do not support building a 700-mile fence along the border, according to a CNN poll released Wednesday.

Seventy-four percent of 1,013 poll respondents said they would be in favor of more U.S. agents along the border. But only 45 percent said they wanted a border fence built, according to the survey conducted by Opinion Research Corp. on behalf of CNN.

And while 58 percent said they would support large fines on employers who hire illegal immigrants, 54 percent said they would oppose jail terms for those employers.

More than two-thirds of poll respondents -- 67 percent -- said the number of illegal immigrants in the United States should be decreased. But only 34 percent said all illegal immigrants should be removed.

The numbers for the recent poll were roughly the same as a similar poll conducted in June.

The sampling error in the survey, conducted October 20-23, is plus or minus 3 percentage points.

If you can't, then I expect an apology for your CPA remark. Whatever happened to the "no personal attacks" mods?

 

[catnap1972]

Originally posted by: CPA

And while 58 percent said they would support large fines on employers who hire illegal immigrants, 54 percent said they would oppose jail terms for those employers.

So in other words, over 40% are either total dimbulbs in thinking a "wall" is going to do a damn bit of good by itself or really are complicit with the illegals coming in and driving wages down, no matter what they 'claim' to the contrary.

 

[International Machine Consortium]

Originally posted by: CPA
Okay, please tell me where is this article you see 53% oppose it:

CNN) -- Although a majority of Americans support increasing the number of Border Patrol agents along the U.S.-Mexico border, most do not support building a 700-mile fence along the border, according to a CNN poll released Wednesday.

Seventy-four percent of 1,013 poll respondents said they would be in favor of more U.S. agents along the border. But only 45 percent said they wanted a border fence built, according to the survey conducted by Opinion Research Corp. on behalf of CNN.

And while 58 percent said they would support large fines on employers who hire illegal immigrants, 54 percent said they would oppose jail terms for those employers.

More than two-thirds of poll respondents -- 67 percent -- said the number of illegal immigrants in the United States should be decreased. But only 34 percent said all illegal immigrants should be removed.

The numbers for the recent poll were roughly the same as a similar poll conducted in June.

The sampling error in the survey, conducted October 20-23, is plus or minus 3 percentage points.

If you can't, then I expect an apology for your CPA remark. Whatever happened to the "no personal attacks" mods?

Watch the movie you'll see proof of the numbers I reported

You owe me an apology for insinuating I was lying. And we'll have none of your whining young man, or you'll get a time out!