More posturing?

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: Evan

Economists agree very widely on market fundamentals, ranging from the business cycle, to inflation, to supply and demand. There's nothing voodoo about it and it's backed by a wide range of multiple regression models. Your ish isn't backed by anything quantitative. [

Hedonics are voodoo economics.

I'm well aware of Martensen's views, I asked for your views and to actually explain them. Since you can't, your stance is nothing more than regurgitated mootness. Martensen is compelling in his argumentation (and certainly more qualified than myself), but of course I was asking for your, ahem, *qualified* opinion. Get it yet?

I have already told you my *qualified* fact that under GAAP (generally accepted accounting practices), the federal government is bankrupt. BTW, Martenson also considers hedonics to be voodoo economics and he advocates getting rid of the Fed and fractional reserve banking.

Yes, and in a society where people want to hold and maintain power, this nonsensical idea that an entire field of study (economics or otherwise) has all its fundamentals slip through the cracks of academia and every single independent researcher on the entire planet, just reeks of naivete. Every country on the planet must be insane for using some form of central economic planning while rejecting fixed exchange rates based on commodities like gold!

You are mistaken, they are not independent at all. The vast majority of them derive their income from the government. Why would they want to chastise the very entity that feeds them?

As for central planning, it is a huge contradiction to criticize it when it comes to goods XYZ and then praise it for goods ABC. Either central planning works and the USSR just didn't get the formula right or it doesn't. In reality, central planning can only work in an economy that has some kind of free market economy left. The reason is simple: prices for goods & services within that centrally planned area of the economy can be copied from the free market area of the economy.

BTW, if hedonics was truly accurate then central planning would work for everything. You would just give a bunch of people surveys to figure out the demand for everything and then you could produce the supply accordingly.

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: Dissipate




I have already told you my *qualified* fact that under GAAP (generally accepted accounting practices), the federal government is bankrupt.

Ok, I know where to find out what they owe, where do I find out the value of all government assets?

We are also still capable of paying the interest on the debt.

 

[Zebo]

America is blessed you stupid commie. We've been though a lot worse and came out stronger. Remember the 30's?

We have basic tools for continued success from education to natural resources to great people from all corners of the globe who don't mind working their tails off.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Ozoned

Originally posted by: Dissipate




I have already told you my *qualified* fact that under GAAP (generally accepted accounting practices), the federal government is bankrupt.

Ok, I know where to find out what they owe, where do I find out the value of all government assets?

We are also still capable of paying the interest on the debt.

Exactly - Just the mineral rights would pay off the 4.5 trillion dollar debt. (notice I said 4.5)

 

[0marTheZealot]

Decline. Yes. Definitely, you are already seeing it now.
Breakup. Maybe. It depends on how intrusive/overbearing the Federal Government gets. I can definitely see some sort of breakup in that case. Although, it is highly unlikely.

America is blessed you stupid commie. We've been though a lot worse and came out stronger. Remember the 30's?

We have basic tools for continued success from education to natural resources to great people from all corners of the globe who don't mind working their tails off.

You should really learn some history...

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
Decline. Yes. Definitely, you are already seeing it now.
Breakup. Maybe. It depends on how intrusive/overbearing the Federal Government gets. I can definitely see some sort of breakup in that case. Although, it is highly unlikely.

America is blessed you stupid commie. We've been though a lot worse and came out stronger. Remember the 30's?

We have basic tools for continued success from education to natural resources to great people from all corners of the globe who don't mind working their tails off.

You should really learn some history...

What dose that mean? What history is applicable besides every American generation has it better than the last by all available matrix?

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: Ozoned

Originally posted by: Dissipate




I have already told you my *qualified* fact that under GAAP (generally accepted accounting practices), the federal government is bankrupt.

Ok, I know where to find out what they owe, where do I find out the value of all government assets?

We are also still capable of paying the interest on the debt.

Exactly - Just the mineral rights would pay off the 4.5 trillion dollar debt. (notice I said 4.5)

The future tax receipts on just a single resource we have (coal at current market values) would pay the national debt 10 times over.

 

[Oceandevi]

I don't have any faith that we would end up with organized sub-states... that's quite a rosy scenario though.


In the context of a total collapse that is.

 

[CottonRabbit]

Originally posted by: Drift3r

I am sure there are Texans who consider themselves American first and Texan second but I haven't meet many.

Lol? I grew up in Texas, and I have never met anyone who wanted Texas to be it's own country. In fact, I was quite annoyed by the go America, boo France blind patriotism that took over my hometown leading up to the Iraq war. No state is going anywhere.

 

[RabidMongoose]

I think it's more like a few other areas of the world are going to catch up to the US, not really a decline in the US alone.

I think that we're more likely to see the United States attack and absorb a weaker state like Canada than actually seeing it break apart at any time in the near future.

 

[First]

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Hedonics are voodoo economics.

A hedonics discussion you wimped out on, btw. Still can't bring yourself to discuss it in any detail here.

I have already told you my *qualified* fact that under GAAP (generally accepted accounting practices), the federal government is bankrupt. BTW, Martenson also considers hedonics to be voodoo economics and he advocates getting rid of the Fed and fractional reserve banking.

Except the government is nowhere near bankrupt under GAAP standards because their collateral is absolutely massive. You have no understanding of what it means to be liquid if you think otherwise.

You are mistaken, they are not independent at all. The vast majority of them derive their income from the government. Why would they want to chastise the very entity that feeds them?

So every researcher on the planet is in on some conspiracy that stops them from presenting quantitative research to prove your bunk theories on economics and hedonics? Do you even try to stay grounded and realistic? If a econ paper could be peer-reviewed that showed the Fed was an utterly inefficient economic institution, we would have seen some evidence of it by now. As is, no one can come up with said paper. Until then you'll look naive claiming otherwise.

And christ, the vast majority of industry in the world is private, so your scenario doesn't even exist in reality. :laugh:

As for central planning, it is a huge contradiction to criticize it when it comes to goods XYZ and then praise it for goods ABC. Either central planning works and the USSR just didn't get the formula right or it doesn't. In reality, central planning can only work in an economy that has some kind of free market economy left. The reason is simple: prices for goods & services within that centrally planned area of the economy can be copied from the free market area of the economy.

You present a false, unsubstantiated dichotomy when the reality is far more nuanced and subtle. It's not one or the other and your posited two-tiered options reek of Bush-like inanity. The last 95 years of economic prosperity have outpaced or held steady with the previous 95 in every major category of statistical research; GDP, wages, tech, etc. The Fed has worked out well if you can add numbers.

BTW, if hedonics was truly accurate then central planning would work for everything. You would just give a bunch of people surveys to figure out the demand for everything and then you could produce the supply accordingly.

You don't know what hedonics is, I'm afraid.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

Originally posted by: Evan

Originally posted by: Dissipate
BTW, if hedonics was truly accurate then central planning would work for everything. You would just give a bunch of people surveys to figure out the demand for everything and then you could produce the supply accordingly.

You don't know what hedonics is, I'm afraid.

Anyone here trying to support central planing via hedonic modeling either has no fundamental understanding of the statistical procedures involved or is an out-right liar trying to push an agenda.

homogeneity of variances and covariances is almost impossible to determine given that when sample sizes are unequal, tests of group differences (Wilks, Hotelling, Pillai-Bartlett, GCR) are not robust. Sample sizes being equal is only something that works in theory, in the field you'll either have to skew the power of your test or simply ignore the situation; both of which are criminal offenses .

 

[Siddhartha]

Decline into what? I can see the size of the US's sphere of influence shrinking. Perhaps the US will finally withdraw from Europe, Japan, and Korea.

Some of the states breaking away? This one sounds like someone thinks the US is set up like the old USSR.

 

[0marTheZealot]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
Decline. Yes. Definitely, you are already seeing it now.
Breakup. Maybe. It depends on how intrusive/overbearing the Federal Government gets. I can definitely see some sort of breakup in that case. Although, it is highly unlikely.

America is blessed you stupid commie. We've been though a lot worse and came out stronger. Remember the 30's?

We have basic tools for continued success from education to natural resources to great people from all corners of the globe who don't mind working their tails off.

You should really learn some history...

What dose that mean? What history is applicable besides every American generation has it better than the last by all available matrix?

Well, we are starting to see that measure crumble as well. This generation is actually getting less schooling than the previous generation, and along with that, a host of problems that come with it, such as lower paying jobs, lower skill level, etc etc. Furthermore, the reason every generation has been doing better than the one before it is because each generation has not paid it's dues. Wait until the Baby Boomers start collecting Medicare/Social Security and bankrupt the system. Or when they overwhelm our already fragile healthcare network. American society, while brilliant, also is at a precipice and we kept delaying going over that precipice by leveraging future generations.

 

[badnewcastle]

The US always changes that's part of what makes the US. I don't see it breaking up, but I could see politics restructuring and maybe we can get away from being right and left. Russia will always be spreading stuff like this as they are pissed that we are who we are and that they lost the cold war.

 

[sammyunltd]

Originally posted by: badnewcastle
The US always changes that's part of what makes the US. I don't see it breaking up, but I could see politics restructuring and maybe we can get away from being right and left. Russia will always be spreading stuff like this as they are pissed that we are who we are and that they lost the cold war.

True, but Russia's on the rise now (BRIC), while the USA and their market economy/free-market capitalism are falling down with them. The death of Investment Banks is the first step. The Venezuela-Russia missile pact is the second step. Deficits piling up, debt increasing, people to bail out, unemployment increasing, etc... the USA is in bad shape, socially (no regulation regarding personal weapons, high crime rates, high poverty rate, high illiteracy rates, etc.) and economically, Russia is rising from its own ashes, driven by its natural resources and will force the Europeans to support them since they provide Europeans with cheap oil/natural gas. They have the EU in their pocket.

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: Evan
A hedonics discussion you wimped out on, btw. Still can't bring yourself to discuss it in any detail here.

There is no detail to discuss. I'm not going to waste my life studying the minutiae of your corrupt voodoo economics. Common sense tells me that trying to measure value of a product by using surveys is patently absurd because value always and only exists in the minds of individual actors and can not be quantified. End of story.

It is just like I don't need to be an expert on the Bible in order to debate a priest on the existence of god. You have clearly wasted your life on all this voodoo, don't expect me to waste mine. I'll stick with common sense and call it a day.

Except the government is nowhere near bankrupt under GAAP standards because their collateral is absolutely massive. You have no understanding of what it means to be liquid if you think otherwise.

So they sell everything off and have nothing left.

So every researcher on the planet is in on some conspiracy that stops them from presenting quantitative research to prove your bunk theories on economics and hedonics? Do you even try to stay grounded and realistic? If a econ paper could be peer-reviewed that showed the Fed was an utterly inefficient economic institution, we would have seen some evidence of it by now. As is, no one can come up with said paper. Until then you'll look naive claiming otherwise.

Many researchers are paid by the state. And many of them are corrupt social engineers like yourself. It isn't really a conspiracy, it is merely these researchers trying to expand their enterprise, just like actors in a free market try to expand their enterprise. Government actors and those who derive their income from the government have no incentive to tell the truth, but they have every incentive to expand their research grants. Humans operate on incentives, this is a key concept that escapes you at every turn.

And christ, the vast majority of industry in the world is private, so your scenario doesn't even exist in reality. :laugh:

That's the only way central planning can work is if most of the economy is private so the government can copy prices and use free market alternatives in the labor market to set wages.

You present a false, unsubstantiated dichotomy when the reality is far more nuanced and subtle. It's not one or the other and your posited two-tiered options reek of Bush-like inanity. The last 95 years of economic prosperity have outpaced or held steady with the previous 95 in every major category of statistical research; GDP, wages, tech, etc. The Fed has worked out well if you can add numbers.

So if central planning is bad for the production of toothbrushes, why not the production of money? Either your theories are going to be applied equally to all goods or selectively, creating a contradiction.

All of those statistics come from the government and they are all distorted by things like hedonics. The truth of the matter is that the economy can barely squeeze out any growth at all because of the massive tax, regulation and inflation state that obliterates potential gains in savings, productivity and investment.

You don't know what hedonics is, I'm afraid.

Common sense tells me it is a means for the government to distort inflation reporting.

 

[First]

Originally posted by: Dissipate

There is no detail to discuss. I'm not going to waste my life studying the minutiae of your corrupt voodoo economics.

I suppose it surprises no one you're willfully ignorant.

Common sense tells me that trying to measure value of a product by using surveys is patently absurd because value always and only exists in the minds of individual actors and can not be quantified. End of story.

No, not end of story since there are plenty of legitimate reasons to take contingent valuation seriously, especially since the results speak for themselves. Surveys have been an invaluable tool for valuing goods and services. Christ. :laugh:

It is just like I don't need to be an expert on the Bible in order to debate a priest on the existence of god. You have clearly wasted your life on all this voodoo, don't expect me to waste mine. I'll stick with common sense and call it a day.

How the hell would you know either way if it was voodoo or not? And you claim you're somehow on the bleeding edge of intellectual enlightenment. Troll. :roll:

So they sell everything off and have nothing left.

No, not even close. Add up the assets yourself troll.

Many researchers are paid by the state.

And it's nowhere near a vast majority! In fact many of the most storied universities in this country are private. Get over it kiddo, you're fighting a losing battle on this particular point.

And many of them are corrupt social engineers like yourself. It isn't really a conspiracy, it is merely these researchers trying to expand their enterprise, just like actors in a free market try to expand their enterprise. Government actors and those who derive their income from the government have no incentive to tell the truth, but they have every incentive to expand their research grants.

They have every incentive to tell the truth because otherwise they run a higher risk of losing their job. Of course, I'm speaking from real world experience while you're speaking from, uh, the perspective of a n00b programmer. Convincing.

Humans operate on incentives, this is a key concept that escapes you at every turn.

And you don't have the faintest clue how the real world works if you honestly believe that there is a good probability that researchers around the world are beholden to some nebulous government that gives them incentive to lie, so much so that no one can come up with good alternatives to the current system apparently because of a massive coincidental infrastructure of corrupt researchers. You're no better than 9/11 Truthers.

That's the only way central planning can work is if most of the economy is private so the government can copy prices and use free market alternatives in the labor market to set wages.

Total rubbish. Then again, this is coming from a self-admitted layman.

So if central planning is bad for the production of toothbrushes, why not the production of money? Either your theories are going to be applied equally to all goods or selectively, creating a contradiction.

Not at all, since the scenarios are not one and the same. You are talking about overtaking the means of all private production by a centralized government, while I am talking about a central bank that merely mitigates extreme pessimism during recessions (via lower interest rates) as well as easing extreme exuberance during booms (via higher interest rates). You present a loaded, meaningless question.

All of those statistics come from the government and they are all distorted by things like hedonics. The truth of the matter is that the economy can barely squeeze out any growth at all because of the massive tax, regulation and inflation state that obliterates potential gains in savings, productivity and investment.

Coming from a self-admitted layman, forgive me if I laugh at your interpretation for the umpteenth time.

Common sense tells me it is a means for the government to distort inflation reporting.

Wrong again.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Originally posted by: ayabe
Large Native American populations? What is that guy smoking?


More crap from Drudge per usual.

Were you from . We have lots of native americans in upper midwest. I am all for breaking up USA . I want nothing to do with either idealogys of either coast. We could get lucky and california falls into the ocean . Good bye and good wrethens.

I married a native American. Custer didn't get them all lol. Our government to my knowledge has never kept 1 promise ever. The people on both coast feel they desrve more than middle america. Why is that? America may end up broke but those Bombs we created they all still work. Which still makes America Dangerious. The fact that America has used said weapons on civilians. not once but twice. Isn't very comforting . Why is it we don't want Korea to have such weapons. Because they may use them. We already did. Says alot about America does it not?

I was watching a movie the other day . This Cop kept calling his partner a Indian. Well finally he gets pissed . and says you ignorant bastered I am a mexican not indian. I laughed so hard at the mexican idiot that didn't know he was an Indian. I AM MEXICAN . Is what they are is half pint indians. White spanish mexicans are not rushing to cross the border into USA. LOL.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Originally posted by: K1052
That guy is obviously under the delusion that all nations are assembled like Russia and will suffer the same fate.

With oil on it's way to $40 a barrel and their stock market reeling I don't think Russia is going to be taking charge of jack shit.

What the hell you talking about . Russia is intact. Russia has natural resources up the butt. Read history. Russia has been a very good country threw time as compared to England france germany usa. Russia India China all been pretty good threw history. Compared to the westerners . USA is the worse over the last 59 years by far . bar none.

Its a toss up between the Britts and Spanish for whos was the worst in history. But I think maybe the Britts have raped the world more than any other nation in history. So the Britts were the best at 1 thing anyway . Not very comforting. If I could make one wish that could come true. It would be that any man who wishes to extend authority over another were all dead . and completely forgotten . wiped from history for the wickedness of their ways. Anyone know were the Gold minds are located in england. Or is that stolen GOLD. Same with Spain . That theirs or was it stolen? Govenrment is another name for legality of upper crust criminals. Who all went to jail on the Enron fraud. 60 billion dollars stolen.

I watch the news and I watch the penilties impossed on differant people for the same crime . Blacks get shafted big time. The Indians all native AMERICAN North or south. are next. Than poor whites. Than unpopular whites . Finely very few rich go to jail for the same crime as say a black american. Fact is I know 3 women ans 1 man all white the stole $25000 or more. Not one was every in a court of law. You want there names . I will name them publicly right here and now if you so wish. So don't tell me America is a country of law. Law only applies to the poor and middle class. If you have friends were needed . You can break the law. Thats what America is about. Protecting the Rich from the rest. To bad its going to go real bad for the rich very soon. I won't raise a hand towards anyone no matter what they do . Its not my place to judge. But I can turn my back to them fast.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: sammyunltd

Originally posted by: badnewcastle
The US always changes that's part of what makes the US. I don't see it breaking up, but I could see politics restructuring and maybe we can get away from being right and left. Russia will always be spreading stuff like this as they are pissed that we are who we are and that they lost the cold war.

True, but Russia's on the rise now (BRIC), while the USA and their market economy/free-market capitalism are falling down with them. The death of Investment Banks is the first step. The Venezuela-Russia missile pact is the second step. Deficits piling up, debt increasing, people to bail out, unemployment increasing, etc... the USA is in bad shape, socially (no regulation regarding personal weapons, high crime rates, high poverty rate, high illiteracy rates, etc.) and economically, Russia is rising from its own ashes, driven by its natural resources and will force the Europeans to support them since they provide Europeans with cheap oil/natural gas. They have the EU in their pocket.

russia is a borderline third world country in many respects, and regressing. Chavez is losing Venezuela. Iran will likely have new leadership soon. Commodities are cheap.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1

Originally posted by: K1052
That guy is obviously under the delusion that all nations are assembled like Russia and will suffer the same fate.

With oil on it's way to $40 a barrel and their stock market reeling I don't think Russia is going to be taking charge of jack shit.

What the hell you talking about . Russia is intact. Russia has natural resources up the butt. Read history. Russia has been a very good country threw time as compared to England france germany usa. Russia India China all been pretty good threw history. Compared to the westerners . USA is the worse over the last 59 years by far . bar none.

I was going to call out dissipate on his nonsensical rambling, but then you came along and dragged this disaster of a thread into the intellectual abyss. What the hell are you even talking about?

 

[Nemesis 1]

Probably something you can't concieve of . Befor whites came to America. Who lived here. Did they sell us the land or did we steal it. England stole all its wealth as did Spain. Perspective is a funny thing.

Lets say their was 1 honest judge in the world. Would he find Americans guilty of genecide of American natives and stealing their land. . YES he would. Good thing there are no honest judges or the world would turn upside down . If it to my advantage I am for it . No matter what the cost. If it not to my advantage than we shall tare down anylaw that hinders are agenda.

Heres how bad it really is . Russia is setting on diamond fields that are hugh. A diamonds true value= zero. But the Britts made all believe the lie . LOL.

Or If the worlds population is starving. Which has more value A bushel of corn . or a barrel of oil . You can ans that after you drink the oil. If you can. My son married into a rather wealth farming family 5'000 acres of the worlds best soil . At my sons wedding the old man was telling me about this ethanal plant he was part owner in . This was last oct. 07

He asked me to invest 200g. I just lol . He said whats so funny. I said I hope you didn't invest alot. He said about 2 mil. I said ya know ya lost that money right. Man did he get pissed. There I am can't barely walk or move left side of body. He is ready to kick my ass. I said look. Ethanal is worse polluter of air than gas by far. Than we have people starving in the world not a couple of people but millions. You want to convert food to fuel . Bad Idea. He called me up about a month ago to say he was sorry. I said for what. He said because of the wedding dance thing. I said I knew how you would react with that kind of $$ at stake. But I shoot from the hip. Well he lost his 2mil and the plant closed. But man does he have alot of windturbines. Not rented land. He bought his own windturbins. Its funny seeing the 2 differant brands in use in our county. Mc neils and theres. Than the farmers buying overseas turbins its really funny.


Any of you guys read the Rochester post bulletin.The story on the Town who choose a drug dealer over the establishment. It was great. My wife wants me to link the names of the 3 women and 1 man who stole and send info to post bulletin. Our ex mayor was involved the ass, We are going to send some untouchables to jail for a long time. Where theres a will theresa way.

I was a really rotten kid I mean I was evil . I have done things I dare not speak of . AS a youth. I was always told what a rotten f---er I was. So I win the hand of my wife. My life changes. All those good people labeling other people were the worse bastards of all.

I think America has done pretty good considering the number of crimnals she harbors. But she is ripe for the fall. The only thing that gets us out of this miss. Is a lie that convinces other nations that we can correct this miss. THATs not going to happen . The EU tho will welcome us into the fold.

 

[JohnnyGage]

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1

Originally posted by: K1052
That guy is obviously under the delusion that all nations are assembled like Russia and will suffer the same fate.

With oil on it's way to $40 a barrel and their stock market reeling I don't think Russia is going to be taking charge of jack shit.

What the hell you talking about . Russia is intact. Russia has natural resources up the butt. Read history. Russia has been a very good country threw time as compared to England france germany usa. Russia India China all been pretty good threw history. Compared to the westerners . USA is the worse over the last 59 years by far . bar none.

Its a toss up between the Britts and Spanish for whos was the worst in history. But I think maybe the Britts have raped the world more than any other nation in history. So the Britts were the best at 1 thing anyway . Not very comforting. If I could make one wish that could come true. It would be that any man who wishes to extend authority over another were all dead . and completely forgotten . wiped from history for the wickedness of their ways. Anyone know were the Gold minds are located in england. Or is that stolen GOLD. Same with Spain . That theirs or was it stolen? Govenrment is another name for legality of upper crust criminals. Who all went to jail on the Enron fraud. 60 billion dollars stolen.

I watch the news and I watch the penilties impossed on differant people for the same crime . Blacks get shafted big time. The Indians all native AMERICAN North or south. are next. Than poor whites. Than unpopular whites . Finely very few rich go to jail for the same crime as say a black american. Fact is I know 3 women ans 1 man all white the stole $25000 or more. Not one was every in a court of law. You want there names . I will name them publicly right here and now if you so wish. So don't tell me America is a country of law. Law only applies to the poor and middle class. If you have friends were needed . You can break the law. Thats what America is about. Protecting the Rich from the rest. To bad its going to go real bad for the rich very soon. I won't raise a hand towards anyone no matter what they do . Its not my place to judge. But I can turn my back to them fast.

Mr. Nemesis1, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this forum is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed
I have heard of a few of these. I know of Cascasia (Northern CA up to Washington) California ( I do not see the other Lone Star state splitting of as one state alone), Texas (I think there is more chance of them becoming a state of Mexico then independent again), Vermont (Maybe they would go with Canada or Independent?), and the North Dakota tribes are trying to win independence, but what a terrible country that would be, landlocked and barren.
But none of these are realistically going to happen, sorry russkie cold war guy. Or none of them would last very long. (maybe California, but I could see CA being the new capital of the US if it fell anyhow)

Cascadia. Get it right.

And it's Northern CA up to British Columbia.

I wouldn't mind ditching the South, but the rest of the country should stick together.