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More on Afghani on trial for converting to Christianity...

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/03/23/afghan.christian.ap/index.html

"KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) -- Senior Muslim clerics are demanding that an Afghan man on trial for converting from Islam to Christianity be executed, warning that if the government caves in to Western pressure and frees him, they will incite people to "pull him into pieces."

In an unusual move, U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice telephoned President Hamid Karzai on Thursday seeking a "favorable resolution" of the case of Abdul Rahman. The 41-year-old former medical aid worker faces the death penalty under Afghanistan's Islamic laws for becoming a Christian.

His trial has fired passions in this conservative Muslim nation and highlighted a conflict of values between Afghanistan and its Western backers.

"Rejecting Islam is insulting God. We will not allow God to be humiliated. This man must die," said cleric Abdul Raoulf, who is considered a moderate and was jailed three times for opposing the Taliban before the hard-line regime was ousted in 2001.

The trial, which began last week, has caused an international outcry. U.S. President George W. Bush has said he is "deeply troubled" by the case and expects Afghanistan to "honor the universal principle of freedom." (Watch how Rahman's case troubles the West -- 1:17)

Rice spokesman Sean McCormack said she told Karzai it is important for the Afghan people to know that freedom of religion is observed in their country.

Her direct appeal to a foreign leader in a judicial proceeding in their own country was unusual. But in deference to the country's sovereignty, Rice evidently did not demand specifically that the trial be halted and the defendant released.

"This is clearly an Afghan decision," McCormack said.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel told reporters she had received assurances from Karzai in a telephone call that Rahman would not be sentenced to death.

Diplomats have said the Afghan government is searching for a way to drop the case. On Wednesday, authorities said Rahman is suspected of being mentally ill and would undergo psychological examinations to see whether he is fit to stand trial.

But three Sunni preachers and a Shiite one interviewed by The Associated Press in four of Kabul's most popular mosques said they do not believe Rahman is insane.

"He is not crazy. He went in front of the media and confessed to being a Christian," said Hamidullah, chief cleric at beloved patriot Yacob Mosque. "The government is scared of the international community. But the people will kill him if he is freed."

Raoulf, who is a member of the country's main Islamic organization, the Afghan Ulama Council, concurred. "The government is playing games. The people will not be fooled."

"Cut off his head!" he exclaimed, sitting in a courtyard outside Herati Mosque. "We will call on the people to pull him into pieces so there's nothing left."

He said the only way for Rahman to survive would be for him to go into exile.

But Said Mirhossain Nasri, the top cleric at Hossainia Mosque, one of the largest Shiite places of worship in Kabul, said Rahman must not be allowed to leave the country.

"If he is allowed to live in the West, then others will claim to be Christian so they can, too," he said. "We must set an example. ... He must be hanged."

The clerics said they were angry with the United States and other countries for pushing for Rahman's freedom.

"We are a small country and we welcome the help the outside world is giving us. But please don't interfere in this issue," Nasri said. "We are Muslims and these are our beliefs. This is much more important to us than all the aid the world has given us."

Afghanistan's constitution is based on Sharia law, which is interpreted by many Muslims to require that any Muslim who rejects Islam be sentenced to death.

Hamidullah warned that the government would lose the support of the people if it frees Rahman, and "there will be an uprising" like the one against Soviet occupying forces in the 1980s.

Human rights group Amnesty International said if Rahman has been detained solely for his religious beliefs, he would be a "prisoner of conscience" and that the charges should be dropped.

Rahman is believed to have lived in Germany for nine years after converting to Christianity while working as a medical aid worker for an international Christian group helping Afghan refugees in Pakistan. He returned to Kabul in 2002.

It was not immediately clear when Rahman's trial would resume. Authorities have barred attempts by the AP to see him and he is not believed to have a lawyer.
"





Seriously....wtf "This is much more important to us than all the aid the world has given us."

Ingrates. There's people of all religions dying over there and some guy has the audacity to say that putting someone on trial for converting from state religion is more important than all the lives sacrificed, billions of dollars in aid, and millions of hours put into rebuilding the country? Usually I don't say anythign on issues like this...but wtf.
 
"If he is allowed to live in the West, then others will claim to be Christian so they can, too," he said. "We must set an example. ... He must be hanged."


Is this guy afraid of everyone wanting to leave that sh!tthole of a country?
 
"KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) -- Senior Muslim clerics are demanding that an Afghan man on trial for converting from Islam to Christianity be executed, warning that if the government caves in to Western pressure and frees him, they will incite people to "pull him into pieces."

Islam - the religon of pieces

 
Originally posted by: rudder
"If he is allowed to live in the West, then others will claim to be Christian so they can, too," he said. "We must set an example. ... He must be hanged."


Is this guy afraid of everyone wanting to leave that sh!tthole of a country?

You can always tell a country is a sh!thole because they are worried about people (who aren't criminals) leaving. Lets face it, the US, UK, Canada, Austrailia, Germany, and even France don't have a problem with emmigration. All the boarder patrol people are facing outside, not inside.

Having actually seen a piece of the Berlin Wall, it's kinda interesting that you can tell which is the West German and which is the East German side because the East side is almost untouched while the West side has more graphiti than a freeway overpass.
 
Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth
Originally posted by: rudder
"If he is allowed to live in the West, then others will claim to be Christian so they can, too," he said. "We must set an example. ... He must be hanged."


Is this guy afraid of everyone wanting to leave that sh!tthole of a country?

You can always tell a country is a sh!thole because they are worried about people (who aren't criminals) leaving. Lets face it, the US, UK, Canada, Austrailia, Germany, and even France don't have a problem with emmigration. All the boarder patrol people are facing outside, not inside.

Having actually seen a piece of the Berlin Wall, it's kinda interesting that you can tell which is the West German and which is the East German side because the East side is almost untouched while the West side has more graphiti than a freeway overpass.


that's interesting actually, never knew that, I just figured both sides were graffiti'd.
 
CAIR's response to this is encouraging (Council on American-Islamic Relations)

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/viewstory.a...5Carchive%5C200603%5CCUL20060322c.html

CAIR issued a statement Wednesday afternoon regarding the apostasy trial of Abdul Rahman, saying his conversion to Christianity is a personal matter, not a state matter, and urging the Afghan government to release Rahman immediately. The judge in Rahman's case said he could face the death penalty if he refuses to return to Islam.

"Islamic scholars say the original rulings on apostasy were similar to those for treasonous acts in legal systems worldwide and do not apply to an individual's choice of religion," CAIR said in its statement.

"Islam advocates both freedom of religion and freedom of conscience, a position supported by verses in the Quran, Islam's revealed text, such as:

1) 'If it had been the will of your Lord that all the people of the world should be believers, all the people of the earth would have believed! Would you then compel mankind against their will to believe?' (10:99)

2) '(O Prophet) proclaim: "This is the Truth from your Lord. Now let him who will, believe in it, and him who will, deny it."' (18:29)

3) 'If they turn away from thee (O Muhammad) they should know that We have not sent you to be their keeper. Your only duty is to convey My message.' (42:48)

4) 'Let there be no compulsion in religion.' (2:256)"

"Religious decisions should be matters of personal choice, not a cause for state intervention. Faith imposed by force is not true belief, but coercion," the statement said.

"Islam has no need to compel belief in its divine truth. As the Quran states: 'Truth stands out clear from error. Therefore, whoever rejects evil and believes in God has grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold that never breaks.' (2:256)" CAIR concluded.
 
Originally posted by: Accipiter22
Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth
Originally posted by: rudder
"If he is allowed to live in the West, then others will claim to be Christian so they can, too," he said. "We must set an example. ... He must be hanged."


Is this guy afraid of everyone wanting to leave that sh!tthole of a country?

You can always tell a country is a sh!thole because they are worried about people (who aren't criminals) leaving. Lets face it, the US, UK, Canada, Austrailia, Germany, and even France don't have a problem with emmigration. All the boarder patrol people are facing outside, not inside.

Having actually seen a piece of the Berlin Wall, it's kinda interesting that you can tell which is the West German and which is the East German side because the East side is almost untouched while the West side has more graphiti than a freeway overpass.


that's interesting actually, never knew that, I just figured both sides were graffiti'd.


The West Germans weren't worried about people trying to escape, but the East Germans had barbed wire, trenches, and machine guns. You couldn't get within 20 meters of the wall on the east side.
 
Originally posted by: Accipiter22
Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth
Originally posted by: rudder
"If he is allowed to live in the West, then others will claim to be Christian so they can, too," he said. "We must set an example. ... He must be hanged."


Is this guy afraid of everyone wanting to leave that sh!tthole of a country?

You can always tell a country is a sh!thole because they are worried about people (who aren't criminals) leaving. Lets face it, the US, UK, Canada, Austrailia, Germany, and even France don't have a problem with emmigration. All the boarder patrol people are facing outside, not inside.

Having actually seen a piece of the Berlin Wall, it's kinda interesting that you can tell which is the West German and which is the East German side because the East side is almost untouched while the West side has more graphiti than a freeway overpass.


that's interesting actually, never knew that, I just figured both sides were graffiti'd.

You couldn't get within 100 meters of the East side of The Wall without being shot dead - at best.
 
It is a pretty sad picture, but maybe out of his martyrdom somethign goo dwill come out of it. The man did willingly say that he would rather die as a Christian than renounce it. 🙁 I hope they will realize their folly, but chances are it will happen anyways.
 
Originally posted by: DaShen
It is a pretty sad picture, but maybe out of his martyrdom somethign goo dwill come out of it. The man did willingly say that he would rather die as a Christian than renounce it. 🙁 I hope they will realize their folly, but chances are it will happen anyways.

I really hope they don't do it....but if they do, they can kiss goodbye foreign aide.
 
It's pretty sad that there are still people being persecuted for their beliefs. As much as I don't agree with this country from time to time, I'm glad that this sort of thing isn't allowed.
 
Originally posted by: thirdeye
It's pretty sad that there are still people being persecuted for their beliefs. As much as I don't agree with this country from time to time, I'm glad that this sort of thing isn't allowed.

The sad part is, Afghanistan's new constitution is supposed to allow religious freedom. But the fact that this guy converted from Islam to Christianity is the problem and it is at odds with some other law (can't remember the whole thing off the top of my head).
 
you know we conqured that country, we have every right to step in and say "FU*CK YOU" you are killing anybody. We did it to Japan, we made the Emperor make a radio broadcast denouncing that he was a God and we outlawed the practice of shinto. we should have done the exact same thing in in Afghanastan.
 
Originally posted by: Queasy
Originally posted by: thirdeye
It's pretty sad that there are still people being persecuted for their beliefs. As much as I don't agree with this country from time to time, I'm glad that this sort of thing isn't allowed.

The sad part is, Afghanistan's new constitution is supposed to allow religious freedom. But the fact that this guy converted from Islam to Christianity is the problem and it is at odds with some other law (can't remember the whole thing off the top of my head).

the constitution says that no law shall trump any law in the Koran.
 
the only reason the crowds would tear him apart is if the clerics tell the crowds to.

i wonder how long before literacy sweeps the muslim world and there is a reformation?
 
The outcome of this situation will go a long way in helping me decide if peace in this part of the world and with Middle-east Muslims will ever be a real possibility. It seems like Arabic Muslims are at loggerheads with the rest of the world. What they consider to be the norm we consider to be barbaric and brutal. What we consider to be the norm they consider "Satanic", to be eliminated from the face of the earth.
 
Originally posted by: NuclearNed
The outcome of this situation will go a long way in helping me decide if peace in this part of the world and with Middle-east Muslims will ever be a real possibility. It seems like Arabic Muslims are at loggerheads with the rest of the world. What they consider to be the norm we consider to be barbaric and brutal. What we consider to be the norm they consider "Satanic", to be eliminated from the face of the earth.

yup. It's like that which they don't understand they fear. I get that muslims in the west, and Europe don't think like this. I'm not saying I hate all Muslims or anythign like this. But in the middle-east and other arabic countries it seems like the attitude expressed in this CNN article is pervasive.
 
Originally posted by: Accipiter22
Originally posted by: DaShen
It is a pretty sad picture, but maybe out of his martyrdom somethign goo dwill come out of it. The man did willingly say that he would rather die as a Christian than renounce it. 🙁 I hope they will realize their folly, but chances are it will happen anyways.

I really hope they don't do it....but if they do, they can kiss goodbye foreign aide.
There's no chance that aid will go away except for maybe the aid from some christian organizations. The US has too important a geo-political goal to safeguard to Afghanistan to let a single humanitarian incident get in the way of that goal.

 
Originally posted by: zephyrprime
Originally posted by: Accipiter22
Originally posted by: DaShen
It is a pretty sad picture, but maybe out of his martyrdom somethign goo dwill come out of it. The man did willingly say that he would rather die as a Christian than renounce it. 🙁 I hope they will realize their folly, but chances are it will happen anyways.

I really hope they don't do it....but if they do, they can kiss goodbye foreign aide.
There's no chance that aid will go away except for maybe the aid from some christian organizations. The US has too important a geo-political goal to safeguard to Afghanistan to let a single humanitarian incident get in the way of that goal.

Yup, which is even more sad.
 
Originally posted by: Citrix
you know we conqured that country, we have every right to step in and say "FU*CK YOU" you are killing anybody. We did it to Japan, we made the Emperor make a radio broadcast denouncing that he was a God and we outlawed the practice of shinto. we should have done the exact same thing in in Afghanastan.

It will never happen. Back in those days, war was executed in a way that an entire populace was brought to their knees and everyone - the military and civilians - were eager to surrender to stop the barrage. Nowadays we try to take out only military targets while leaving civilian targets alone. The Allies took all the fight out of Japan by completely humbling every aspect of their nation. In a way, the military is just a well-armed representative of the entire population of a nation. If the population has a mindset of war, then defeating just the military isn't going to end the war and the "victors" aren't going to be able to impose their will with ease.

Mind you, I'm not saying that we should target civilians. Maybe I'm just commenting on the futility of the whole Middle-East situation.
 
Originally posted by: NuclearNed
Originally posted by: Citrix
you know we conqured that country, we have every right to step in and say "FU*CK YOU" you are killing anybody. We did it to Japan, we made the Emperor make a radio broadcast denouncing that he was a God and we outlawed the practice of shinto. we should have done the exact same thing in in Afghanastan.

It will never happen. Back in those days, war was executed in a way that an entire populace was brought to their knees and everyone - the military and civilians - were eager to surrender to stop the barrage. Nowadays we try to take out only military targets while leaving civilian targets alone. The Allies took all the fight out of Japan by completely humbling every aspect of their nation. In a way, the military is just a well-armed representative of the entire population of a nation. If the population has a mindset of war, then defeating just the military isn't going to end the war and the "victors" aren't going to be able to impose their will with ease.

Mind you, I'm not saying that we should target civilians. Maybe I'm just commenting on the futility of the whole Middle-East situation.



ayup. we thought that by taking away the people with the best weapons, we'd win.
 
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