More "Nuance" On the Gazan Embargo

[Narmer]

Are you serious?

When should the world community have condemned Hamas? When Hamas started executing the Fatah Palestinians to consolidate their power the traditional not so democratic Palestinian way? When they started shooting off rockets into Israel? When they sent bomb vested suicide bombers against civilian targets? When they instituted hate classes in their schools? When they emplaced munitions dumps and rocket launch sites in schools and hospitals?

The Germans elected the Nazis and Europe and the world gave them plenty of leash as well and look how well that turned out.

By now we should know that when a rogue government is empowered it will lead to more and more abuse of the democratic institutions that enabled it. Under no stretch of the imagination is Hamas running a democratic regime in Gaza, even if the majority of Gazans support their destroy Israel agenda.

The world community seldom cares, much less intervenes until such time as the rogue regimes attack their neighbors, which Hamas got to pretty fast off the starting block. That they happened to attack Israel, well, plenty in the world community cheered that on and still do. So much for peace in our time.

You don't know what you're talking about.

 

[bfdd]

OK Bfdd, lets address both the IHV signature and what you said in, "shut up you're an idiot, you realize that right? you realize no one here with a brain will even humor what you say anymore after you said what is in IHV's sig."

Lets us somewhat understand, terrorism is always the politics of the powerless, but how is Israeli terrorism, collective punishment military superiority, made more noble than fighting with the weapons you have?

For many years and still somewhat true today, all the Palestinians have are rocks, bottles, a few homemade rockets and suicide bombers to fight for their rights. But if nothing else, when there are no shortage of Palestinians willing to sacrifice their own lives to strike back against Israeli injustice as suicide bombers, why should not that be honored as a measure of Palestinian Patriotism and desperation?

Especially when we compare that to Jewish terrorists perfectly willing to murder others in total cold blood, and survive, like Begin, and Goldie Mier, to become Israel PM?

How many winners of US military medals of honor received those medals posthumously as they gave their lives to save their comrades?

Instead we should ask where was the Israeli honor and nobility of some Israeli pilot who bombed and killed totally innocent Lebanese Christians from the safety of 10,000 feet. If that is the only nobility of high tech and Israeli civilization, its enough to gag a maggot.

So the solution is to blow yourself up in the name of Islam? That's civilized to you? I understand the whole use what resources you have around you to arm yourself, but that's not the same thing is it? Blowing yourself up to kill infidels because you'll get 70 virgins in heaven is NOT civilized, in fact it's ass backwards.

 

[PJABBER]

You don't know what you're talking about.

Not only do I know what I am talking about, I have also spent considerable time in the last week to come up to speed on the latest iteration of the Palestinian issue, the geopolitical strategy that Iran playing out in hopes of precluding an attack on its nuclear weapons facilities, the arms trafficking that the Turks would like to engage in at the behest of Iran, the complex dynamic between the various Palestinian factions and alliances, the individual Palestinian players and their self interested goals and strategies (not surprisingly to the detriment of the general Palestinian population,) the body of law and common practice that relates to the conduct of war and of blockade, the state of humanitarian and military assistance programs aimed at the various Palestinian entities, the historical basis of the various state and non-state conflicts that color the landscape, well, you get the idea.

The fact is that any position that I choose to take is not based on presuppositions or assumptions but on a rigorous examination of many more factors than you might care to explore yourself. Though you are certainly welcome to think you have some basis in fact for your own opinions, I am certain that I do. :awe:

 

[tk149]

Good article, Perknose.

The embargo effects on Cuba and North Korea come to mind as well. Does anyone know if any non-food embargo has ever worked to effect regime change?

 

[Harabec]

What do you do with a dog that would not stop biting? Fact is (despite Lemon Law's lies) Fatah is slowly building up the west bank and is working with the IDF against internal terrorism. The Gaza strip is now a different world, unrelated to the west bank and playing by different rules.
I guess that was Hamas' intention when they killed Fatah members living there. Discussing a blockade means avoiding the problem itself - the removal of Hamas from existance. I agree the people living in the Gaza strip suffer needlessly because of lack of action on that part.

 

[Harabec]

Good article, Perknose.

The embargo effects on Cuba and North Korea come to mind as well. Does anyone know if any non-food embargo has ever worked to effect regime change?

I don't think a blockade ever works, because a regime ruling by force will never starve before its people do.

 

[woolfe9999]

What if the rocket sites are in/around schools?

That's a tough question without an easy answer. Probably they shouldn't fire back. For now.

The rockets aren't actually finding many targets, not the rockets they've been using. I do realize that could change. There is no perfect solution.

The trouble is that Israel's blockade does seem to be propping up and legitimizing Hamas. Absent a blockade, the ills of the Gazans can no longer be blamed on Israel. Actually, I'm sure they'll still find a way to blame it on Israel, but their excuses won't reach such a wide audience becuase there won't be anything concrete to point to.

- wolf

 

[woolfe9999]

Has aid helped NK? Honest question. These regimes are totalitarian in nature. Israel and the world could pump billions into Gaza and it would still be a shitheap because Hamas would simply steal it. The populace will still blame Israel even if your idea failed. It is the nature of the beast.

Israel already does a lot of that. The result is an outcry from the world when they blow up a rocket site Hamas setup on top of an elementary school. I for the life of me dont understand why the world falls for this type of tactics over and over.

I wasn't suggesting aid, but rather opening up private commerce. As I said in my previous post, that will open further opportunity for Hamas to skim from everything, but in theory it will make Hamas also responsible for whatever shortages and humanitarian problems they have there. Fatah's popularity eroded under Arafat precisely because of this kind of corruption, and I can see the same thing happening to Hamas. But right now Hamas is able to blame Israel for everything.

So far as firing back, I think Israel has to carefully choose its targets. Where it's too close to civilians, don't fire back, but do let the world know that Hamas is firing rockets from schools in Gaza and that because of this Israel is not firing back. Most of these rockets will miss, but the first time one kills a bunch of Israeli civilians, the Israelis will then launch a large scale air strike no matter what. That's about how I think the Israelis should play it. Nowhere close to a perfect solution, but there are no perfect solutions here.

- wolf

 

[khon]

The embargo flat out doesn't work, no embargo does. It doesn't work on Iran, or North Korea, or Cuba. And it didn't work on Iraq.

All embargoes do is create isolation and poverty, which is the perfect recipe for extremism.

 

[woolfe9999]

OK Bfdd, lets address both the IHV signature and what you said in, "shut up you're an idiot, you realize that right? you realize no one here with a brain will even humor what you say anymore after you said what is in IHV's sig."

Lets us somewhat understand, terrorism is always the politics of the powerless, but how is Israeli terrorism, collective punishment military superiority, made more noble than fighting with the weapons you have?

For many years and still somewhat true today, all the Palestinians have are rocks, bottles, a few homemade rockets and suicide bombers to fight for their rights. But if nothing else, when there are no shortage of Palestinians willing to sacrifice their own lives to strike back against Israeli injustice as suicide bombers, why should not that be honored as a measure of Palestinian Patriotism and desperation?

Especially when we compare that to Jewish terrorists perfectly willing to murder others in total cold blood, and survive, like Begin, and Goldie Mier, to become Israel PM?

How many winners of US military medals of honor received those medals posthumously as they gave their lives to save their comrades?

Instead we should ask where was the Israeli honor and nobility of some Israeli pilot who bombed and killed totally innocent Lebanese Christians from the safety of 10,000 feet. If that is the only nobility of high tech and Israeli civilization, its enough to gag a maggot.

These people are strapping bombs to their backs and blowing themselves up on Israeli school busses FFS. They are not only intentionally killing children; they are using children to kill other children.

Your logic can also be applied to 9/11. The whole Islamic world has grievances against the U.S. for its intervention into the middle east, right? And they can't oppose us militarily, so their only available tactics are things like flying planes into buildings. Shouldn't that be "honored as a measure of Patriotism and desperation?" Will you "honor" the next attack on U.S. soil. What if its your wife next time, or YOUR child, you prick?

You disgust me.

- wolf

 

[flavio]

The whole Islamic world has grievances against the U.S. for its intervention into the middle east, right?

Wrong.

 

[werepossum]

These people are strapping bombs to their backs and blowing themselves up on Israeli school busses FFS. They are not only intentionally killing children; they are using children to kill other children.

Your logic can also be applied to 9/11. The whole Islamic world has grievances against the U.S. for its intervention into the middle east, right? And they can't oppose us militarily, so their only available tactics are things like flying planes into buildings. Shouldn't that be "honored as a measure of Patriotism and desperation?" Will you "honor" the next attack on U.S. soil. What if its your wife next time, or YOUR child, you prick?

You disgust me.

- wolf

Well said. The frightening thing is that these apologists for terrorism never see a possible corollary - that Israel or the USA or some other advanced nation might well one day do the same and say "We can never stop these people from hijacking planes or blowing themselves up in our markets, so the only tactic left to us is to kill them all, or so brutally attack them that the survivors won't dare to strike again." Asymmetric warfare works, but if it works too well both sides will adopt it, and terrorism from an advanced nation would be truly horrific.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

The embargo flat out doesn't work, no embargo does. It doesn't work on Iran, or North Korea, or Cuba. And it didn't work on Iraq.

All embargoes do is create isolation and poverty, which is the perfect recipe for extremism.

Hamas was extremist from the git-go.

And embargoes are about the best available form of control, not the ideal form of control. The only other real alternative is regime change, which worked in Iraq for those no longer paying attention.

 

[flavio]

Yeah, Iraq is all fixed now.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Yeah, Iraq is all fixed now.

Yeah, it's just the same brutal regime as it was under Saddam.



The Saddam supporters will never admit otherwise because it doesn't suit their agenda. Instead they have to post some bullshit like "Iraq is all fixed now," as if it was so much better under Saddam, or they assume that ANY country should be perfect.

Iraq is not perfect. Nobody ever said it would be. Are things better for most in Iraq? Fuckin-A they are. Ask the vast majority of Iraqis.

 

[flavio]

Yeah, it's just the same brutal regime as it was under Saddam.

No, it's all better now right?

The Saddam supporters will never admit otherwise because it doesn't suit their agenda.

Why do you have to make up some stupid assed shit like "Saddam supporters"? Are you that intellectually dishonest?

Are things better for most in Iraq? Fuckin-A they are. Ask the vast majority of Iraqis.

That's a pretty iffy claim. Mixed poll results

Clearly life was worse off for years after the invasion and now there's still a ton of violence. Remove all US troops and lets see how it goes right? It was a stupid fucking war that cost a ton of money and 100's of thousands of lives for very little gain and we still aren't leaving. Still spending a massive amounts of money and lots of people dead for shit.

 

[khon]

Hamas was extremist from the git-go.

And embargoes are about the best available form of control, not the ideal form of control. The only other real alternative is regime change, which worked in Iraq for those no longer paying attention.

Wrong.

The alternative is trade, the most effective deterent for war ever known to man. The thing is countries that have intertwined economic interests tend not to fight each other, and with trade comes a free flow of ideas and information.

 

[PJABBER]

The alternative is trade, the most effective deterent for war ever known to man. The thing is countries that have intertwined economic interests tend not to fight each other, and with trade comes a free flow of ideas and information.

I agree with that 100%.

However, the issue at hand is not loosening barriers to trade, it is in keeping armaments out of the hands of a people that have, in their crazy Palestinian way, devoted their lives to killing others.

Once they calm down or have the power to kill effectively taken away from them, then there is little that can't be achieved by the joining of "Palestinian" and Israeli interests. Again, the P's are not homogeneous, there are many that do fine in a peaceful relationship with their neighbors, while others don't seem to get the idea that peace is better than war.

The hard part is getting the jihidists to put down their weapons and then redirecting their bloodlust toward useful purpose.

 

[Lemon law]

Good article, Perknose.

The embargo effects on Cuba and North Korea come to mind as well. Does anyone know if any non-food embargo has ever worked to effect regime change?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That answer is totally easy, and the answer is the former apartheid regime of South Africa. And when the world wide embargo was really tightened, we got voluntary internal regime change in a totally non violent manner. And because the opposition that was formally classified as terrorists were wise enough to accept a partial victory without the crass human emotion of revenge, and also wise enough to realize that any viable South African future was going to require whites and blacks working together instead of working against themselves, we have a perfect model for solving the intractable problems of the State of Israel also.

Our US President Lincoln said it 150 years ago, a house divided against itself cannot stand.

And this is the single theme for the mid-east I have been advocating, The land of Israel, holy to three major religions, cannot be pigged by just one religion, that strategy has been tried many times in world history, and has never worked long term, but Israel can be peacefully shared by all.

 

[PJABBER]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That answer is totally easy, and the answer is the former apartheid regime of South Africa. And when the world wide embargo was really tightened, we got voluntary internal regime change in a totally non violent manner. And because the opposition that was formally classified as terrorists were wise enough to accept a partial victory without the crass human emotion of revenge, and also wise enough to realize that any viable South African future was going to require whites and blacks working together instead of working against themselves, we have a perfect model for solving the intractable problems of the State of Israel also.

Well said, but I would add that it took great leaders, like Mandela at great risk to himself, to make that happen.

Who in the Palestinian leadership would take such a stand? And would they survive long enough to make a second speech advocating accommodation and moderation?

There are two models in South Africa, the one you offer as an example and Zimbabwe.

So far, the leadership of the Palestinians come off as wanting to follow the path of Zimbabwe, not South Africa.

 

[khon]

However, the issue at hand is not loosening barriers to trade, it is in keeping armaments out of the hands of a people that have, in their crazy Palestinian way, devoted their lives to killing others.

Once they calm down or have the power to kill effectively taken away from them, then there is little that can't be achieved by the joining of "Palestinian" and Israeli interests.

You're looking at it the wrong way around. The order should not be peace -> joint interests. It should be joint interests -> peace.

You can't oppress someone so thoroughly that they no longer have the power to strike back in any way, many countries have tried that, but I know of none that have succeeded. So the goal is not to keep the guns out (which can't be done), it is to stop them from using those guns.

 

[nageov3t]

You're looking at it the wrong way around. The order should not be peace -> joint interests. It should be joint interests -> peace.

You can't oppress someone so thoroughly that they no longer have the power to strike back in any way, many countries have tried that, but I know of none that have succeeded. So the goal is not to keep the guns out (which can't be done), it is to stop them from using those guns.

what does Hamas want for peace other than the destruction of Israel?

 

[PJABBER]

You're looking at it the wrong way around. The order should not be peace -> joint interests. It should be joint interests -> peace.

You can't oppress someone so thoroughly that they no longer have the power to strike back in any way, many countries have tried that, but I know of none that have succeeded. So the goal is not to keep the guns out (which can't be done), it is to stop them from using those guns.

I can think of many examples where overwhelming oppression/suppression of a population resulted in their capitulation and absorption. History is littered with them.

But the Israelis were certainly not oppressing this population when they gave up all on the ground control and pulled out of Gaza. Neither are they oppressing the millions of ex-Palestinians that reside in Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and elsewhere. Nor are they oppressing the vibrant Arab population that are citizens of Israel, 20% of the country's total population!

I am trending to think that the best solution is a complete disarmament of the Gaza Strip. Make it like DC or Chicago where it is all but impossible legally to get a firearm. Limit weapons to handguns and paintball guns for the police. Banning weapons in Chicago doesn't stop the criminals from having them and it won't in the Gaza Strip either, but it is a start.

I also think that the Palestinian Fatah in the West Bank has acted a lot more responsibly recently, though their history is no less violent than Hamas is currently. If they are willing to try for accommodation like the Israelis are, support their regaining governance over Gaza and hope they don't go bad again. I bet they are more than willing to use their military/police to re-take Gaza from Hamas. Let 'em loose and back them up with Israeli or UN armor.

Sure there are a lot of obstacles, the greatest being how obscenely the Palestinian leadership get rich off the backs of the "humanitarian" programs meant to target the unfortunate. Yasser Arafat stole BILLIONS, the current leadership is trying to beat that record.

How DOES it feel when you drop that $20 into the "Save Gaza" kitty and it is used for hookers and blow by Hamas chieftains?

 

[khon]

what does Hamas want for peace other than the destruction of Israel?

I could care less what Hamas wants, the question is what do the Palestinians want ?

 

[nageov3t]

I could care less what Hamas wants, the question is what do the Palestinians want ?

Hamas are the elected rulers of Gaza and there can be absolutely no hope of peace until someone or something emerges that can clamp down on the Death to Israel faction.