More IQ hacks from nvidia ?Farcry..

[Megatomic]

Originally posted by: BFG10K

What I have been saying is that in the games I've played on both cards I don't see the IQ differences, at least not as dramatically as you may. I even listed the games I did play with both cards.

Well that's nice but it really doesn't have anything to do with this issue.

Whatever.

And am I to guess that you have not personally experienced any in-game time on an FX 5900 BFG10K? You danced around my question before...

I didn't answer it because it wasn't relevant.

Nice cop out, the avatar fits. You ought to go into politics.

 

[CaiNaM]

I'll be waiting to see what tune you start singing if the NV40 turns out to be faster than the R420 in PS 3.0.

well, since at isn't even supporting it.. that's a pretty stupid question.

besides, until the games actually make use of it, it will be meaningless regardless of who supports it best. while it may or may not become an issue at some point, for the immediate future, ps3 support is a "paper" feature, much like ps2 shader support has been the last year and half - and still is 99% of the time.

 

[BFG10K]

LOL! you've been preaching and STILL preaching that PS2.0 performance is important, even on the 9600!

So we can expect masturbation comments from you if the NV40 is faster than the R420 in PS 3.0? Or is it only "masturbation" when ATi has the edge?

you're twisting this bfg. the original site which was referred, and the subsequent issues raised on hardocp (which i concur, and attribute to the patch) had nothing to do with each other...

Both sites showed some degree of lowered IQ.

it's not an "iq reduction" as you seem so enthusiastic to refer to it as,

The IQ was reduced and you don't call it IQ reduction?

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=reduction

The amount by which something is lessened or diminished: a reduction of 12 percent in violent crime.

but rather an error that made it thru quality control which will hopefully be corrected in a subsequent FarCry patch.

That was likely the reason for the IQ reduction.

and where, exactly did i say you blamed anyone for anything regarding this?

I'm making it clear that I didn't jump down the "nVidia is cheating" bandwagon; I merely pointed out that something was up.

 

[CaiNaM]

you know, i would agree if everytime there was a driver or game issue with ati you jumped up and said, "ati is guilty of IQ reduction!", but you don't do you? i didn't see you screaming that when there were anamolies with farcry, cod and a host of others which ati recognized.. why is a bug with a game and/or driver that affects nvidia any different?

I'm making it clear that I didn't jump down the "nVidia is cheating" bandwagon; I merely pointed out that something was up.

well, i never accused you of that, and you implied i did by directly quoting me and saying "If you look carefully you'll see I never blamed nVidia or Crytek for the issue, I just said there was definitely something going on." i didn't accuse you then of "jumping on the nv is cheating" bandwagon, and am not now. just making that clear.

 

[Megatomic]

Originally posted by: BFG10K

I'm making it clear that I didn't jump down the "nVidia is cheating" bandwagon; I merely pointed out that something was up.

sorry for squabbling over nothing with you then, BFG10K. :beer: Enjoy some games for me tonight, I'm stuck at work. This'll be yet another 18 hour marathon.

 

[ronnn]

Originally posted by: g3pro
i think i hit a nerve with that comment. i think people who care about PS2.0 as of now really do masturbate to the shinier water. :disgust:

As long as you enjoy what you are thinking about. As for myself, I would prefer Dusk to Dawn. :beer:

 

[g3pro]

hey, BFG:

http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/winhec/partners/shadermodel30_NVIDIA.mspx

hmmmm... so SM3.0 is similar to SM2.0 in features but is MUCH faster. hmmmmmm... you should be PRAISING SM3.0 and be f***ing praising nVidia for SM3.0.

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: chsh1ca
Okay, for the motivationally impaired (ie: lazy people), here is the comparison between the Far Cry 1.0 images using the 45.x dets and the 56.x from that chinese review site. I chose to ignore the 1.1 stills, in which both cards appear to render identically, but different from either of the 1.0 images. Also, HardOCP's examination would seem to indicate that the 1.1 patch in fact applies lighting where it was not showing up before (which is consistent with the images I compare in that link above).

ok, now i really call BS... i uninstalled Far Cry, reinstalled (unpatched) so it is v1.0. here is the comparison between the 56.72 and 45.28 drivers in 2 diff locations which display the "shiny wet metal" effect.

image comparision

quick load and lo-res (it's not detail we're talking here after all). i didn't have time to exactly line up the shots, but that isn't necessariy to show that both drivers render the effects in the same manner.

not sure how much difference the driver made in performance; it didn't occur to me at the time to edit the reg for coolbits and o/c the card, so the card is running stock speed on the 45.28 drivers, and 450/950 on the 56.72 shots....

 

[chsh1ca]

Originally posted by: CaiNaM

ok, now i really call BS... i uninstalled Far Cry, reinstalled (unpatched) so it is v1.0. here is the comparison between the 56.72 and 45.28 drivers in 2 diff locations which display the "shiny wet metal" effect.

Umm, could you do a valid comparison between the same actual driver revisions before calling the results bullshit? 56.72 != 56.64. It's possible that this was fixed with the latest drivers, and if that is the case, it's good to know. Since you have access to the hardware, try using the 56.64s and see if they replicate the behaviour on that chinese site.

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER

Here's the jaggies problem I was speaking of with CoD pic It only does this at a certain angle but it didn't happen with the 5800U. The settings in the game were all on high, 10x7, 4xAA/8xAF set in ATi CP, Omega 2.5.30's *happened with Official 4.3's as well.

It doesn't look like AA is even being applied to those edges. There are still some bugs to be worked out with the ATI drivers and Call of Duty obviously.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

It doesn't look like AA is even being applied to those edges. There are still some bugs to be worked out with the ATI drivers and Call of Duty obviously.

It does seem isolated to just a couple games so far, but the 5800U I had was a better card for CoD for me, no doubt about it. That gives the win in FarCry to the 9800pro and the win in CoD to the 5800U. That Rollo is a crafty bastage

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: CaiNaM

Originally posted by: chsh1ca
Okay, for the motivationally impaired (ie: lazy people), here is the comparison between the Far Cry 1.0 images using the 45.x dets and the 56.x from that chinese review site. I chose to ignore the 1.1 stills, in which both cards appear to render identically, but different from either of the 1.0 images. Also, HardOCP's examination would seem to indicate that the 1.1 patch in fact applies lighting where it was not showing up before (which is consistent with the images I compare in that link above).

ok, now i really call BS... i uninstalled Far Cry, reinstalled (unpatched) so it is v1.0. here is the comparison between the 56.72 and 45.28 drivers in 2 diff locations which display the "shiny wet metal" effect.

image comparision

quick load and lo-res (it's not detail we're talking here after all). i didn't have time to exactly line up the shots, but that isn't necessariy to show that both drivers render the effects in the same manner.

not sure how much difference the driver made in performance; it didn't occur to me at the time to edit the reg for coolbits and o/c the card, so the card is running stock speed on the 45.28 drivers, and 450/950 on the 56.72 shots....

Good job, someone actually posts proof instead of being a fanboi. :beer: for you Cainam

 

[chsh1ca]

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER

It doesn't look like AA is even being applied to those edges. There are still some bugs to be worked out with the ATI drivers and Call of Duty obviously.

It does seem isolated to just a couple games so far, but the 5800U I had was a better card for CoD for me, no doubt about it. That gives the win in FarCry to the 9800pro and the win in CoD to the 5800U. That Rollo is a crafty bastage

Actually, looking at the release notes for Cat 4.4 it would appear they either they don't know about the issue, or think it's already been resolved. It doesn't show as a resolved issue, nor does it show as a known issue. Have you setup a support ticket type thing, or asked one of the local AT guys who is a member of the Catalyst beta team?

Originally posted by: Acanthus
Good job, someone actually posts proof instead of being a fanboi.

What's funny is your fanboyism. I merely offered a cropped image for comparison purposes. If you want actual unbiased proof, wait until we see some images comparing the right driver revisions. Come to think of it, actual unbiased proof has rarely mattered to you before, so I'm wasting energy typing this.

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: chsh1ca

Umm, could you do a valid comparison between the same actual driver revisions before calling the results bullshit? 56.72 != 56.64. It's possible that this was fixed with the latest drivers, and if that is the case, it's good to know. Since you have access to the hardware, try using the 56.64s and see if they replicate the behaviour on that chinese site.

well, first the bullshit was in response to the "more iq hacks..." subject of the thread. i should have clarified.. again, i still hold the original article referred to in this thread irrelevant, as we have no context in which to place these "comparisons", nor what settings, etc. were used, or even what the whole point of the article was. just scrrenshots with no data.

the latest drivers did not comprismise the IQ as suggested, so that's what i used... if nv was attempting to "cheat" again, i would think the current driver would be the one to refer to. at any rate, while i doubt it will make a difference, per your request, i'll have the shots up using 56.64; took me a few min. to find them... installing now. stay tuned.

 

[chsh1ca]

Originally posted by: CaiNaM
Well, first the bullshit was in response to the "more iq hacks..." subject of the thread. i should have clarified.. again, i still hold the original article referred to in this thread irrelevant, as we have no context in which to place these "comparisons", nor what settings, etc. were used, or even what the whole point of the article was. just scrrenshots with no data.

Well, I'm sure those points would be answered if we could speak/read whichever asian language it is written in. On the former point, yeah, I agree with you the thread subject was blatantly trying to provoke fanboyism, that doesn't mean we have to let it though.

The latest drivers did not comprismise the IQ as suggested, so that's what i used... if nv was attempting to "cheat" again, i would think the current driver would be the one to refer to. at any rate, while i doubt it will make a difference, per your request, i'll have the shots up using 56.64; took me a few min. to find them... installing now. stay tuned.

Indeed, I don't believe it is a cheat anymore than I believe it is a cheat that ATI apparently has no functional AA on CoD. Thank you for taking the time and effort to test with those specific drivers, it will certainly clarify the issue of whether we should just outright ignore those benches, or whether they are at least accurate as far as IQ goes.

 

[CaiNaM]

ok... 56.64:

pic 1
pic 2

while there was nothing specifc in the release notes, if you look at the earlier comparison, you can see light reflecting off the floor (56.72 driver), however in pic 1, above, there is no light reflecting off the floor.... but as you can see, the torpedo's have... well, the pics speak for themselves.

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: chsh1ca

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER

It doesn't look like AA is even being applied to those edges. There are still some bugs to be worked out with the ATI drivers and Call of Duty obviously.

It does seem isolated to just a couple games so far, but the 5800U I had was a better card for CoD for me, no doubt about it. That gives the win in FarCry to the 9800pro and the win in CoD to the 5800U. That Rollo is a crafty bastage

Actually, looking at the release notes for Cat 4.4 it would appear they either they don't know about the issue, or think it's already been resolved. It doesn't show as a resolved issue, nor does it show as a known issue. Have you setup a support ticket type thing, or asked one of the local AT guys who is a member of the Catalyst beta team?

Originally posted by: Acanthus
Good job, someone actually posts proof instead of being a fanboi.

What's funny is your fanboyism. I merely offered a cropped image for comparison purposes. If you want actual unbiased proof, wait until we see some images comparing the right driver revisions. Come to think of it, actual unbiased proof has rarely mattered to you before, so I'm wasting energy typing this.

I never denied that the IQ was worse with the 1.1 patch, i know it is, they (the farcry team) told us it is. Its mixed mode, its supposed to look worse. Its not a friggin hack, and its not driver related. Don't be an ass.

 

[chsh1ca]

Originally posted by: CaiNaM
while there was nothing specifc in the release notes, if you look at the earlier comparison, you can see light reflecting off the floor (56.72 driver). however in pic 1, above, there is no light reflecting off the floor.... but as you can see, the torpedo's have... well, the pics speak for themselves.

Looking at the scene, I'd say you were in a different enough position that there should have been reflected lighting off the floor in all three images. The floor tiling in the same spot relative to the warhead on the floor matches in the three images (or at least appears to to my naked eye). Based on your images, I'd say you're right -- the OP's link is crap as a driver to driver image quality analysis, which would seem to be what he based his assumptions on.

Originally posted by: Acanthus

I never denied that the IQ was worse with the 1.1 patch, i know it is, they (the farcry team) told us it is. Its mixed mode, its supposed to look worse.

Except I was not looking to test the 1.1 patch. This has no relevance to the discussion at hand. Were you making irrelevant comments about fanboyism without actually reading the thread? I was more interested in the supposed difference between FC1.0w/45.28 dets and FC1.0w/56.64 dets, as that would help in determining if the first benchmark was valid or not. CaiNaM's images would suggest it's not. I take his statements regarding the images at face value, and the images themselves. If I had an FX card to test it with, I would offer images up myself.
HardOCP pretty well cleared up FarCry 1.1 for me, for all the quirks of their benchmarking, they generally provide decent IQ comparisons.

Its not a friggin hack, and its not driver related. Don't be an ass.

In the context of the first linked site's IQ comparison (if that is indeed what it is supposed to be -- for all we know it could simply involve how different driver revisions render different pixel shader effects) it appeared that the OP had a somewhat acceptable reason for believing it was driver-related, I was merely attempting to verify the images those conclusions were based on. Apparently they are false, which leads me to wonder what they are actually stating in that review. Until someone who speaks and reads the language can enlighten me, I'm obviously not going to believe they're evidence of "IQ hacks". I think it far more likely they are testing different Pixel Shader levels (say 1.4 vs 2.0) and the way the drivers support them.

 

[BlvdKing]

I have been playing around with farcry and noticed that on my system the PS 2.0 shaders were unplayable. They caused artifacts so bad that I was worried I fried my card. After going back to PS 1.1 everything cleared up. This is with the 56.72 drivers and 1.1 patch on a 5900XT.

The game still looks good but those shaders made everything look better.

 

[Ackmed]

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER
Here's the jaggies problem I was speaking of with CoD pic It only does this at a certain angle but it didn't happen with the 5800U. The settings in the game were all on high, 10x7, 4xAA/8xAF set in ATi CP, Omega 2.5.30's *happened with Official 4.3's as well.

No offense, but I dont think you have AA on at all. There is not any AA applied to any surface of that image.

 

[BenSkywalker]

No offense, but I dont think you have AA on at all. There is not any AA applied to any surface of that image.

Which is a driver bug on a number of games with ATi's drivers. You apply AA in the CP or in game and don't get any. FC demo had this issue(along with image corruption), KoTOR had it and apparently CoD has it.

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker

No offense, but I dont think you have AA on at all. There is not any AA applied to any surface of that image.

Which is a driver bug on a number of games with ATi's drivers. You apply AA in the CP or in game and don't get any. FC demo had this issue(along with image corruption), KoTOR had it and apparently CoD has it.

Was also an issue with neverwinter nights, and is a current issue with Battlefield Vietnam.

 

[Regs]

Far Cry had a team that executed the delivery of this game flawlessly. With such a complex game and new graphic engine, there is plenty of room for mistakes. I guess this patch was one of them.

It could of happened to either ATi or Nvidia. Like Pete said before there is nothing wrong pointing out obvious IQ problems. However Blastman could of been more careful with his wording.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker

No offense, but I dont think you have AA on at all. There is not any AA applied to any surface of that image.

Which is a driver bug on a number of games with ATi's drivers. You apply AA in the CP or in game and don't get any. FC demo had this issue(along with image corruption), KoTOR had it and apparently CoD has it.

Thanks Ben, knowing for certain it's just a driver bug gives a place to start. I'll completely clean all the drivers off my system and try the new 4.4 cat's and see what happens. BTW Ackmed, no offense taken, it is the internet after all, the domain of fanbois and FUD so skepticism is warranted and expected. Unfortunately the jaggies are a real issue I'm having with these games and I'd like it to be corrected. EDIT:I'll correct it with FarCry by purchasing the actual game since I like this one enough to own it *off to FS/FT to see if anyone has a copy listed*

 

[Ackmed]

I only played CoD thru once, but I dont ever recall AA not working, or heard of it until now. Thats why I was skeptical.

AA is applied to BF:V when selected thru the CP.

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker

No offense, but I dont think you have AA on at all. There is not any AA applied to any surface of that image.

Which is a driver bug on a number of games with ATi's drivers. You apply AA in the CP or in game and don't get any. FC demo had this issue(along with image corruption), KoTOR had it and apparently CoD has it.

well.. so as BFG would put it, god damn ati is reducing image quality in games!